Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school Forum

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Straw_Mandible

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by Straw_Mandible » Mon May 12, 2014 4:51 pm

Desert Fox wrote: Example 1:

This poster probably gets nearly 0 RC wrong, yet missed the argument of this thread.

Gunning the LSAT won't make you worse, it'll just give you an LSAT score above your actual worth, meaning you will under perform in law school because you went to a better law school than you should have. Of course this on average, an individual LSAT doesn't mean shit.
It's funny though, because here ^ you assume exactly what you were just denying -- that the skills which are tested by the LSAT are relevant to a student's performance in law school.

It should be obvious that somebody who scores a 170 has the same (LSAT-related) ability level as any other person who scores a 170, no matter how much or how little preparation it took to get there. So insofar as the LSAT can predict law school performance, it should be true that the person who studies her way to a 170 is at no disadvantage to the person who scores a 170 with little or no preparation.

ETA: Unless you're trying to argue that the 'general intellectual ability' of a person who can score a cold 170 guarantees that he/she has skills other than those tested by the LSAT which would be relevant to law school performance... which is a tougher claim to support.
Last edited by Straw_Mandible on Mon May 12, 2014 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by 09042014 » Mon May 12, 2014 4:53 pm

Straw_Mandible wrote:
Desert Fox wrote: Example 1:

This poster probably gets nearly 0 RC wrong, yet missed the argument of this thread.

Gunning the LSAT won't make you worse, it'll just give you an LSAT score above your actual worth, meaning you will under perform in law school because you went to a better law school than you should have. Of course this on average, an individual LSAT doesn't mean shit.
It's funny though, because here ^ you assume exactly what you were just denying -- that the skills which are tested by the LSAT are relevant to a student's performance in law school.

It should be obvious that somebody who scores a 170 has the same (LSAT-related) ability level as any other person who scores a 170, no matter how much or how little preparation it took to get there. Insofar as the LSAT can predict law school performance, it should be true that the person who studies her way to a 170 is at no disadvantage to the person who scores a 170 with little or no preparation.
No it's not obvious, and it's very likely not true. Gaming the LSAT gives you a higher score than you'd otherwise receive.

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by Straw_Mandible » Mon May 12, 2014 4:57 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Straw_Mandible wrote:
Desert Fox wrote: Example 1:

This poster probably gets nearly 0 RC wrong, yet missed the argument of this thread.

Gunning the LSAT won't make you worse, it'll just give you an LSAT score above your actual worth, meaning you will under perform in law school because you went to a better law school than you should have. Of course this on average, an individual LSAT doesn't mean shit.
It's funny though, because here ^ you assume exactly what you were just denying -- that the skills which are tested by the LSAT are relevant to a student's performance in law school.

It should be obvious that somebody who scores a 170 has the same (LSAT-related) ability level as any other person who scores a 170, no matter how much or how little preparation it took to get there. Insofar as the LSAT can predict law school performance, it should be true that the person who studies her way to a 170 is at no disadvantage to the person who scores a 170 with little or no preparation.
No it's not obvious, and it's very likely not true. Gaming the LSAT gives you a higher score than you'd otherwise receive.
See my edit above. What's obvious is that the two 170 scorers are exactly equal in LSAT-related ability. It seems like you're trying to argue that the LSAT natural necessarily has other skills that would make him/her more likely to succeed in law school.

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by Pneumonia » Mon May 12, 2014 4:58 pm

ITT: desperation to make the meaningless meaningful

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by rpupkin » Mon May 12, 2014 5:03 pm

Straw_Mandible wrote: See my edit above. What's obvious is that the two 170 scorers are exactly equal in LSAT-related ability. It seems like you're trying to argue that the LSAT natural necessarily has other skills that would make him/her more likely to succeed in law school.
The "LSAT natural"--someone who scored 170 right off the bat--has good logical reasoning skills. Your assumption that is that the natural "170" has logical reasoning skills that are no greater than someone who took the LSAT five times and studied for two years before scoring 170. I don't think that's right. The latter likely achieved their score through a combination of logical reasoning skills and test-taking tricks that they practiced over and over.
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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by 09042014 » Mon May 12, 2014 5:03 pm

Straw_Mandible wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Straw_Mandible wrote:
Desert Fox wrote: Example 1:

This poster probably gets nearly 0 RC wrong, yet missed the argument of this thread.

Gunning the LSAT won't make you worse, it'll just give you an LSAT score above your actual worth, meaning you will under perform in law school because you went to a better law school than you should have. Of course this on average, an individual LSAT doesn't mean shit.
It's funny though, because here ^ you assume exactly what you were just denying -- that the skills which are tested by the LSAT are relevant to a student's performance in law school.

It should be obvious that somebody who scores a 170 has the same (LSAT-related) ability level as any other person who scores a 170, no matter how much or how little preparation it took to get there. Insofar as the LSAT can predict law school performance, it should be true that the person who studies her way to a 170 is at no disadvantage to the person who scores a 170 with little or no preparation.
No it's not obvious, and it's very likely not true. Gaming the LSAT gives you a higher score than you'd otherwise receive.
See my edit above. What's obvious is that the two 170 scorers are exactly equal in LSAT-related ability. It seems like you're trying to argue that the LSAT natural necessarily has other skills that would make him/her more likely to succeed in law school.
LSAT ability includes a bunch of proprietary garbage like being familiar with the test, knowing the patterns, have strategies from Powerscore, etc. It raises your score without raising your ability to do better in law school.

It's like people who do Sudoku. Someone who does one every day might do them as fast as someone who did 3-4 in his life. But do you really think that first person will do as well on a different puzzle type.

You are arguing, yes, because he got better at puzzles. Which is probably partially true. But he also just really knows Sudoku, and won't be as good at general puzzles.

There is probably some learning of skill in addition to some learning of the test itself. But I think it's almost entirely the former. People aren't going from average reasoning abilities to top 1% by just taking a test over and over.

Especially since the LSAT is so damn time crunched.

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by Straw_Mandible » Mon May 12, 2014 5:09 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Straw_Mandible wrote: See my edit above. What's obvious is that the two 170 scorers are exactly equal in LSAT-related ability. It seems like you're trying to argue that the LSAT natural necessarily has other skills that would make him/her more likely to succeed in law school.
The "LSAT natural"--someone who scored 170 right off the bat--has good logical reasoning skills. Your assumption that is that the natural "170" has logical reasoning skills that are no greater than someone who took the LSAT five times and studied for two years before scoring 170. I don't think that's right. The latter likely achieved their score through a combination of logical reasoning skills and test-taking tricks that they practiced over and over.
I'm assuming that because there are no "test-taking tricks" that would be effective enough to allow someone to score in the 170s without actually understanding the logic of the test.

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by rpupkin » Mon May 12, 2014 5:23 pm

Straw_Mandible wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Straw_Mandible wrote: See my edit above. What's obvious is that the two 170 scorers are exactly equal in LSAT-related ability. It seems like you're trying to argue that the LSAT natural necessarily has other skills that would make him/her more likely to succeed in law school.
The "LSAT natural"--someone who scored 170 right off the bat--has good logical reasoning skills. Your assumption that is that the natural "170" has logical reasoning skills that are no greater than someone who took the LSAT five times and studied for two years before scoring 170. I don't think that's right. The latter likely achieved their score through a combination of logical reasoning skills and test-taking tricks that they practiced over and over.
I'm assuming that because there are no "test-taking tricks" that would be effective enough to allow someone to score in the 170s without actually understanding the logic of the test.
Exactly. When I wrote "test taking tricks," I meant understanding "the logic of the test" through months or years of repetitive exercises. Will a test taker improve their overall logical reasoning skills in the course of those repetitive exercises? Probably. But much of those gains will, as you put it, be in the realm of the "logic of the test," and won't generally apply to all logical reasoning in all contexts.

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by Nebby » Mon May 12, 2014 5:35 pm

If they over-study the LSAT they'll over-study for exams. Profit.

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by 09042014 » Mon May 12, 2014 5:36 pm

CounselorNebby wrote:If they over-study the LSAT they'll over-study for exams. Profit.
Everyone studies hard for the law exams, even if they didnt for the LSAT. But also, you can't game a law exam in nearly the same way.

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by Straw_Mandible » Mon May 12, 2014 6:34 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Straw_Mandible wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Straw_Mandible wrote: See my edit above. What's obvious is that the two 170 scorers are exactly equal in LSAT-related ability. It seems like you're trying to argue that the LSAT natural necessarily has other skills that would make him/her more likely to succeed in law school.
The "LSAT natural"--someone who scored 170 right off the bat--has good logical reasoning skills. Your assumption that is that the natural "170" has logical reasoning skills that are no greater than someone who took the LSAT five times and studied for two years before scoring 170. I don't think that's right. The latter likely achieved their score through a combination of logical reasoning skills and test-taking tricks that they practiced over and over.
I'm assuming that because there are no "test-taking tricks" that would be effective enough to allow someone to score in the 170s without actually understanding the logic of the test.
Exactly. When I wrote "test taking tricks," I meant understanding "the logic of the test" through months or years of repetitive exercises. Will a test taker improve their overall logical reasoning skills in the course of those repetitive exercises? Probably. But much of those gains will, as you put it, be in the realm of the "logic of the test," and won't generally apply to all logical reasoning in all contexts.
Fine, but why are you assuming that someone who is naturally good at the LSAT is also naturally good at reasoning "in all contexts"? The LSAT tests exactly what it tests, and nothing more. Maybe people who do well on the LSAT without prep simply have skills that align with success on the LSAT, but don't help them in any other contexts. In that case, the natural 170 and the learned 170 are equally suited to succeed in law school. But you can't argue that the skills tested by the LSAT are irrelevant to law school performance, and then proceed to argue that an LSAT natural is in a better position to succeed in law school than someone with learned LSAT ability.

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by rpupkin » Mon May 12, 2014 7:20 pm

Straw_Mandible wrote:
rpupkin wrote: Exactly. When I wrote "test taking tricks," I meant understanding "the logic of the test" through months or years of repetitive exercises. Will a test taker improve their overall logical reasoning skills in the course of those repetitive exercises? Probably. But much of those gains will, as you put it, be in the realm of the "logic of the test," and won't generally apply to all logical reasoning in all contexts.
Fine, but why are you assuming that someone who is naturally good at the LSAT is also naturally good at reasoning "in all contexts"? The LSAT tests exactly what it tests, and nothing more. Maybe people who do well on the LSAT without prep simply have skills that align with success on the LSAT, but don't help them in any other contexts. In that case, the natural 170 and the learned 170 are equally suited to succeed in law school. But you can't argue that the skills tested by the LSAT are irrelevant to law school performance, and then proceed to argue that an LSAT natural is in a better position to succeed in law school than someone with learned LSAT ability.
Maybe an analogy will help. Think about the qualities that make up athletic ability--strength, quickness, stamina, etc. I decide I want to test these qualities through performance at a particular sport. I choose tennis. I've got two applicants, neither of whom has played tennis before. Applicant A gets really good really quick. Within a week, he's getting hard first serves in. He's got great instincts at the net. He moves well around the court and is able to return well at the baseline.

Applicant B, by contrast, is horrible at first. He literally swings and misses at the ball. He has a hard time chasing down balls. And when he does make contact, he tends to hit the ball too hard (hitting it out long) or too soft (into the net). He also has a real poor sense for where he is on the court at any given time. He's still bad at these things after a couple of weeks of practice. After a full year of daily practice, Applicant B has improved his technique to the point that he is finally as good as Applicant A was after one week.

Now, with that background about Applicant A and Applicant B, let's say you want to field a basketball team and have to pick A or B. Neither has played basketball before, but you know about what happened with tennis. Whom do you pick? I think the answer is obviously Applicant A, who seems to have superior natural athletic ability. Yes, it's theoretically possible that Applicant A's superior natural athletic ability is limited to the specific context of tennis, but that seems unlikely. Applicant A likely has superior coordination, speed, and reflexes. Applicant A is much more likely to be a decent basketball player after a relatively short period of time.
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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by Nebby » Mon May 12, 2014 7:23 pm

To summarize:

DF thread.

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by Straw_Mandible » Mon May 12, 2014 8:26 pm

rpupkin: That's a strong analogy. But it neglects the very real possibility that Applicant B, over the course of his year-long intensive tennis training, developed the qualities that define 'general' athletic ability ("strength, quickness, stamina, etc.")--without which it would be impossible to become a high performing tennis player. And perhaps many of those newly cultivated 'general' athletic abilities would be transferable, and would enable Applicant B to learn a new sport (like basketball) much more quickly than he learned tennis, possibly just as quickly as Applicant A.

Everyone has different starting points. Maybe Applicant A was a D1 lacrosse player, which gave him the general athletic ability necessary to become competent at tennis in a relatively short period of time. Maybe the "natural" 170 scorer was someone who spent most of her childhood reading dense literature and solving logic puzzles for fun. This is very often the case. That doesn't mean that a person can't develop those very same cognitive abilities later in life--for example, by dedicating an entire year of her life to slaving over LSAT passages and logic games.

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by Clyde Frog » Tue May 13, 2014 1:37 am

Desert Fox wrote:LSAT correlation data is from a time period before LSAT studying was commonplace. Even today, only a small fraction of test takers study anywhere near as much as people on this forum.

Does a TLSer who PTs from 155 to 169, really deserve a 169? Will they, on average, do as well in law school as a real 169?

What say you.

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by Hipster but Athletic » Tue May 13, 2014 2:15 am

I guarantee that if I flew to say, Fordham, interviewed 50 kids about their high school, college, original LSAT, and actual LSAT, I could go at least 20 for 25 in a random h2h outcomes prediction contest

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by Hipster but Athletic » Tue May 13, 2014 2:16 am

Undergrad matters by far the most, unless they went for sports.

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by jk148706 » Tue May 13, 2014 9:11 am

Desert Fox wrote:LSAT correlation data is from a time period before LSAT studying was commonplace. Even today, only a small fraction of test takers study anywhere near as much as people on this forum.

Does a TLSer who PTs from 155 to 169, really deserve a 169? Will they, on average, do as well in law school as a real 169?

What say you.
Who cares

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by jk148706 » Tue May 13, 2014 9:11 am

Pneumonia wrote:ITT: desperation to make the meaningless meaningful

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by IAFG » Tue May 13, 2014 9:21 am

Idk how much the LSAT prepped me for law school but it REALLY prepped me for arguing online with strangers.

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by Theopliske8711 » Tue May 13, 2014 9:58 am

Maybe I'm just someone with too great a sense of inadequacy, but I certainly feel that the LSAT is not a determiner of anything really and that getting a high score can't be particularly difficult, just potentially time consuming.

"Take X amount of Preptests until you've practically memorized the setup of virtually any type of question*

Very impressive...

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by Straw_Mandible » Tue May 13, 2014 10:22 am

Theopliske8711 wrote:Maybe I'm just someone with too great a sense of inadequacy, but I certainly feel that the LSAT is not a determiner of anything really and that getting a high score can't be particularly difficult, just potentially time consuming.

"Take X amount of Preptests until you've practically memorized the setup of virtually any type of question*

Very impressive...
But anyone who has really studied for the LSAT knows that this isn't how it works. There is no amount of passive exposure to test questions that will guarantee improvement. Score jumps happen only when you've developed a complete understanding of the principles underlying the questions and an ability to apply those principles in practice.

Sure, basic pattern recognition can help you along the way to developing those abilities and understandings, but it's neither a shortcut nor a substitute.

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by Theopliske8711 » Tue May 13, 2014 10:40 am

Straw_Mandible wrote:
Theopliske8711 wrote:Maybe I'm just someone with too great a sense of inadequacy, but I certainly feel that the LSAT is not a determiner of anything really and that getting a high score can't be particularly difficult, just potentially time consuming.

"Take X amount of Preptests until you've practically memorized the setup of virtually any type of question*

Very impressive...
But anyone who has really studied for the LSAT knows that this isn't how it works. There is no amount of passive exposure to test questions that will guarantee improvement. Score jumps happen only when you've developed a complete understanding of the principles underlying the questions and an ability to apply those principles in practice.

Sure, basic pattern recognition can help you along the way to developing those abilities and understandings, but it's neither a shortcut nor a substitute.

1) I took the LSAT.
2) That's probably quite a bit simplified. But what I am saying is that there isn't really a special anything involved in LSAT study. Unless your just naturally gifted (like some computer science people), all you really have to do is take a preptest, review what you got wrong, take a note of why, take new preptest with info you've gained. All of this is fairly simple, just time consuming. Repeat this over and over and that's the real recipe for getting a good score. If you had some fuck-ups on test day, just retake. Overtime, you just naturally start to see the patterns in the questions. I came to the point where I hardly had to even read the stimulus. Just look at the question prompt, note the stimulus, and then go to the often quite predictable answer.

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Re: Do people who over study for the LSAT do worse in law school

Post by 09042014 » Tue May 13, 2014 10:42 am

Clyde Frog wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:LSAT correlation data is from a time period before LSAT studying was commonplace. Even today, only a small fraction of test takers study anywhere near as much as people on this forum.

Does a TLSer who PTs from 155 to 169, really deserve a 169? Will they, on average, do as well in law school as a real 169?

What say you.

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