Is this forum part of the law school scam? Forum

[dwil770]

I'm waiting for the day TLS tells people not to go. It is just a matter of time. Look at the schools that people are still attending at sticker. I'm thinking most of the people on this forum shouldn't go, but that message isn't stated directly yet. 0Ls generally don't want to hear how poor their decisions and choices are, and, the idea that law is a path to a stable, high-paying career is pervasive. There was a thread by a guy who didn't believe that so many people would go to law school knowing they might make $50,000 at best. It is a mystery. Employment transparency has a long way to go.

My favorite part of the lowered applicants/ admissions is when people spin that into a great thing for them because they can get more money or better schools. I feel that is completely missing the point, but not everyone agrees.

Maybe the message will filter out.

That's what the forum is now

[mornincounselor]

Post removed.

[UnicornHunter]

No more so than TV shows like Law and Order and Suits.

People who go to law school because of Suits are like people who join the military because they like Call of Duty. Both groups deserve every bit of the inevitable disappointment headed their way.

[Freyer92]

I'm waiting for the day TLS tells people not to go. It is just a matter of time. Look at the schools that people are still attending at sticker. I'm thinking most of the people on this forum shouldn't go, but that message isn't stated directly yet. 0Ls generally don't want to hear how poor their decisions and choices are, and, the idea that law is a path to a stable, high-paying career is pervasive. There was a thread by a guy who didn't believe that so many people would go to law school knowing they might make $50,000 at best. It is a mystery. Employment transparency has a long way to go.

My favorite part of the lowered applicants/ admissions is when people spin that into a great thing for them because they can get more money or better schools. I feel that is completely missing the point, but not everyone agrees.

Maybe the message will filter out.

That's what the forum is now

I feel like since this forum is meant to help individuals talk about getting into law school/top-law-schools.com, that it shouldn't/won't become about telling people not to go to law school. The website becomes obsolete at that point.

[bjsesq]

Seriously though, people studying from 150 to 170 is rare, and the rest just commit to a shitty path.

Is it rare here, though?

[dsamuels]

"Don't go" is the new "retake"

The progression on TLS is fascinating.

2007: Paying sticker at Hastings is good investment if you want to work in SF.

2014: Don't go to YLS unless school gives you $30k/yr in need-based.

I don't know why, but the truth of this made me laugh

[sighsigh]

I do think the "What are my chances?" forum should be eliminated, because it is not relevant whether someone can get in to a law school, what matters the cost of attending and the job prospects (already covered by "Choosing a Law School").

+1, in the sense that simply *getting in* to your target law school doesn't mean anything anymore, since you'd be crazy to pay full price anywhere (and that arguably includes YHS). Admissions standards may have decreased in nominal terms, but in real terms they have actually increased because these days you need a big scholly to realistically attend, and that's not going to happen unless you're above both 75ths or whatever.

[banjo]

The LSAT is where humanities grads learn the skills they were supposed to learn in college--reading and thinking critically. Half the people who wrote honors theses on postmodern gender theory can't identify the main point of a 200-word passage about ducks.

I'm all for the LSAT, even if people stop applying to law school.

[jk148706]

Seriously though, people studying from 150 to 170 is rare, and the rest just commit to a shitty path.

Is it rare here, though?

No it's not rare here

[bjsesq]

Seriously though, people studying from 150 to 170 is rare, and the rest just commit to a shitty path.

Is it rare here, though?

No it's not rare here

Pretty much my thought.

[Theopliske8711]

Oh, and tutors are practically a huge scam...

"Come here, I'll tell you why your question was obviously wrong, even though you were likely wrong because you misread or overlooked something in the stimulus."

Afterward: "Go home and do x preptests"

Later on, the LSAT taker: "My score has improved! Man, that tutor sure did help!"

[Pneumonia]

Oh, and tutors are practically a huge scam...

"Come here, I'll tell you why your question was obviously wrong, even though you were likely wrong because you misread or overlooked something in the stimulus."

Afterward: "Go home and do x preptests"

Later on, the LSAT taker: "My score has improved! Man, that tutor sure did help!"

Shhhhhhhhh

[brazleton]

.

[Theopliske8711]

I feel like since this forum is meant to help individuals talk about getting into law school/top-law-schools.com, that it shouldn't/won't become about telling people not to go to law school. The website becomes obsolete at that point.

Well, the cost of law school is coming to the point where going at anywhere near sticker is potentially a death sentence, even at a t14. Compound that with stagnant wages even on the upper-end of the spectrum (biglaw), and you have a recipe for disaster for anyone even remotely thinking of taking the full debt load. This progression is quite rational at that point: if you are looking at a school and considering taking in 300K of potentially ruinous debt all so you can enter a temporary gig at a sweatshop that is less lucrative by the year and if you have maxed out your LSAT and/or have a locked in GPA... "do not go" makes sense.

[smaug_]

(and you don't want the jobs they have)

[NYSprague]

I feel like since this forum is meant to help individuals talk about getting into law school/top-law-schools.com, that it shouldn't/won't become about telling people not to go to law school. The website becomes obsolete at that point.

Well, the cost of law school is coming to the point where going at anywhere near sticker is potentially a death sentence, even at a t14. Compound that with stagnant wages even on the upper-end of the spectrum (biglaw), and you have a recipe for disaster for anyone even remotely thinking of taking the full debt load. This progression is quite rational at that point: if you are looking at a school and considering taking in 300K of potentially ruinous debt all so you can enter a temporary gig at a sweatshop that is less lucrative by the year and if you have maxed out your LSAT and/or have a locked in GPA... "do not go" makes sense.

I think this site needs to bring reality to people seeking law school because almost none of them understand what has happened to this profession.
The debt has always been the problem. The cost of a JD is shocking and that New York Law School costs as much as Harvard is completely insane. The job market is so skewed that people either don't find jobs at all, struggle to find jobs making $50,000 or manage to get a high paying short term gig. The entire system is horribly broken, so that the best thing for most people on this forum is to find something else.

So, yes, I think hardly anyone should go to law school. That message still has a long way to go.

[rayiner]

"Don't go" is the new "retake"

The progression on TLS is fascinating.

2007: Paying sticker at Hastings is good investment if you want to work in SF.

2014: Don't go to YLS unless school gives you $30k/yr in need-based.

The evolution of TLS in this regard is a good thing for the most part. It's good because there is more info out there now and applicants should have that info to make an informed decision.
The problem that I see, and why DF's cringe-worthy tirades are so annoying, is the lack of self-awareness on the part of TLS mega-posters.

It's like those high school sophomores who couldn't wait to see the new freshmen so they could tell them what noobs they are and then when they were seniors, omg the sophomores are such noobs. Oh look, I'm a college freshman now, high schoolers are such noobs, if only they'd listen to the sweet advice of their elders. Oh hey I'm a 1L, listen up you stupid noob 0Ls, you don't know shit. Now these TLSers are in biglaw and, shocker, it's tough. The hours are long, the work is unglamorous. This info was available from practicing attorneys for years, but they ignored it for the same reason that their current "listen up noobs" garbage is going to fall on deaf ears: it sounds like what it is, the tunnel vision of someone who is currently where they are and is seeking the ears of those right below them to bestow their sacred knowledge.
DF, IAFG and Rad and all them could be adding to the conversation in way that takes into account why people will continue to try to go to law school and chase biglaw and face the hardships attached to this path. They could help those people navigate that path as prepared as one can be. Instead we get this crap. I guarantee that two years from now, these posters will be in here calling first and second years in biglaw noobs who just don't get it and who will just not listen.
So stop calling the criticism of DF "0L butthurtedness." As the Dude said to Walter: DF, you are not wrong, you are just an asshole.

You're ignoring the very real fact that 0L's have way more information. We didn't have detailed ABA employment disclosures. We didn't have practicing attorneys posting about their typical day. When I went to LS, first year salaries hadn't been stagnant for five years. Finally, my full sticker debt was about $235k, versus almost $300k today.

And note to 0L's who think DF, IAFG and I are just negative: what we're saying about big law prospects out of a T14 are way more positive than the TLS CW when we went in.

[KatyMarie]

The evolution of TLS in this regard is a good thing for the most part. It's good because there is more info out there now and applicants should have that info to make an informed decision.
The problem that I see, and why DF's cringe-worthy tirades are so annoying, is the lack of self-awareness on the part of TLS mega-posters.

It's like those high school sophomores who couldn't wait to see the new freshmen so they could tell them what noobs they are and then when they were seniors, omg the sophomores are such noobs. Oh look, I'm a college freshman now, high schoolers are such noobs, if only they'd listen to the sweet advice of their elders. Oh hey I'm a 1L, listen up you stupid noob 0Ls, you don't know shit. Now these TLSers are in biglaw and, shocker, it's tough. The hours are long, the work is unglamorous. This info was available from practicing attorneys for years, but they ignored it for the same reason that their current "listen up noobs" garbage is going to fall on deaf ears: it sounds like what it is, the tunnel vision of someone who is currently where they are and is seeking the ears of those right below them to bestow their sacred knowledge.
DF, IAFG and Rad and all them could be adding to the conversation in way that takes into account why people will continue to try to go to law school and chase biglaw and face the hardships attached to this path. They could help those people navigate that path as prepared as one can be. Instead we get this crap. I guarantee that two years from now, these posters will be in here calling first and second years in biglaw noobs who just don't get it and who will just not listen.
So stop calling the criticism of DF "0L butthurtedness." As the Dude said to Walter: DF, you are not wrong, you are just an asshole.

Agreed. It's a shame because for the most part, they seem like smart, accomplished people that actually do give a shit kinda about what happens to 0Ls. The information is good, but for some reason the lawyer megaposters refuse to distribute it in a way that people will listen. I don't know if law school just beats the humanity out of you until you can't treat people with respect or kindness anymore, but it sure seems like it sometimes.

If a freshman has to be worried about getting shoved into a locker every time they ask a senior a question, of course they're going to go elsewhere for advice.

[NYSprague]

The evolution of TLS in this regard is a good thing for the most part. It's good because there is more info out there now and applicants should have that info to make an informed decision.
The problem that I see, and why DF's cringe-worthy tirades are so annoying, is the lack of self-awareness on the part of TLS mega-posters.

It's like those high school sophomores who couldn't wait to see the new freshmen so they could tell them what noobs they are and then when they were seniors, omg the sophomores are such noobs. Oh look, I'm a college freshman now, high schoolers are such noobs, if only they'd listen to the sweet advice of their elders. Oh hey I'm a 1L, listen up you stupid noob 0Ls, you don't know shit. Now these TLSers are in biglaw and, shocker, it's tough. The hours are long, the work is unglamorous. This info was available from practicing attorneys for years, but they ignored it for the same reason that their current "listen up noobs" garbage is going to fall on deaf ears: it sounds like what it is, the tunnel vision of someone who is currently where they are and is seeking the ears of those right below them to bestow their sacred knowledge.
DF, IAFG and Rad and all them could be adding to the conversation in way that takes into account why people will continue to try to go to law school and chase biglaw and face the hardships attached to this path. They could help those people navigate that path as prepared as one can be. Instead we get this crap. I guarantee that two years from now, these posters will be in here calling first and second years in biglaw noobs who just don't get it and who will just not listen.
So stop calling the criticism of DF "0L butthurtedness." As the Dude said to Walter: DF, you are not wrong, you are just an asshole.

Agreed. It's a shame because for the most part, they seem like smart, accomplished people that actually do give a shit kinda about what happens to 0Ls. The information is good, but for some reason the lawyer megaposters refuse to distribute it in a way that people will listen. I don't know if law school just beats the humanity out of you until you can't treat people with respect or kindness anymore, but it sure seems like it sometimes.

If a freshman has to be worried about getting shoved into a locker every time they ask a senior a question, of course they're going to go elsewhere for advice.

People hardly ever listen to advice they don't want to hear.What approach do you suggest?

[Bikeflip]

It's not that megapoasters and their supporters are dense, we just know many of you won't listen to well reasoned facts. (damn. scooped)

[bjsesq]

The evolution of TLS in this regard is a good thing for the most part. It's good because there is more info out there now and applicants should have that info to make an informed decision.
The problem that I see, and why DF's cringe-worthy tirades are so annoying, is the lack of self-awareness on the part of TLS mega-posters.

It's like those high school sophomores who couldn't wait to see the new freshmen so they could tell them what noobs they are and then when they were seniors, omg the sophomores are such noobs. Oh look, I'm a college freshman now, high schoolers are such noobs, if only they'd listen to the sweet advice of their elders. Oh hey I'm a 1L, listen up you stupid noob 0Ls, you don't know shit. Now these TLSers are in biglaw and, shocker, it's tough. The hours are long, the work is unglamorous. This info was available from practicing attorneys for years, but they ignored it for the same reason that their current "listen up noobs" garbage is going to fall on deaf ears: it sounds like what it is, the tunnel vision of someone who is currently where they are and is seeking the ears of those right below them to bestow their sacred knowledge.
DF, IAFG and Rad and all them could be adding to the conversation in way that takes into account why people will continue to try to go to law school and chase biglaw and face the hardships attached to this path. They could help those people navigate that path as prepared as one can be. Instead we get this crap. I guarantee that two years from now, these posters will be in here calling first and second years in biglaw noobs who just don't get it and who will just not listen.
So stop calling the criticism of DF "0L butthurtedness." As the Dude said to Walter: DF, you are not wrong, you are just an asshole.

The megaposters you mentioned are well aware of how aggressive and over the top they are being. I suspect they do it for a number of reasons:

1. They don't know if the logical arguments will work here because the special snowflake syndrome that typifies so many 0L's is real and damned hard to punch through. Logic falls prostrate before the might of the snowflake; and
2. It's cathartic to smash you over the head with what I wish had been more aggressively smashed over mine.

[anyriotgirl]

also these threads have happened SO many times. I've only been around for a couple of months and I'm bored with the snowflake 0L threads. It's old, and no one listens, so of course everyone just mocks them now.

[09042014]

I do it:

1) Because it's fun. The more your panties are in a twist, the funnier it is to me.

2) You guys aren't going to listen, especially if there just a stickied "reasons you shouldn't go to law school" thread.

3) We are making points that aren't common wisdom, and in many ways really oppose it. Hell most of them are against what I expected 4 years ago.

4) Interrupting the inane bullshit that you all talk about is the last thing I care about. TLS is 95% threads about being waiting for shit, nervously worry that they won't get it. Would you really rather being reading that?

5) I've been trolling here since you were highschool.

[Dredd_2017]

It's a shame because for the most part, they seem like smart, accomplished people that actually do give a shit kinda about what happens to 0Ls. The information is good, but for some reason the lawyer megaposters refuse to distribute it in a way that people will listen. I don't know if law school just beats the humanity out of you until you can't treat people with respect or kindness anymore, but it sure seems like it sometimes.

As a 0L I've probably spent way, way too much time reading TLS and posters like IAFG (Hilarious, most apt profile pic I've ever seen), Justice Harlan (The most consistently high quality poster), rayiner, and even DF (Who posts an unbelievable amount but starts solid discussions) have taught me a lot about the world of legal employment. This doesn't even get into the posters who created the famous law school guides or help law students out like xeoh, arrow, cuse etc. The information we have access to as 0L's is phenomenal, and TLS megapoasters are a part of the reason why.

If a 0L decides not to read these threads b/c some of the comments are harsh they are missing out. It's the rare comment that is truly offensive.

[bjsesq]

also these threads have happened SO many times. I've only been around for a couple of months and I'm bored with the snowflake 0L threads. It's old, and no one listens, so of course everyone just mocks them now.

What if we sprinkled in talk of hot women?

5) I've been trolling here since you were highschool.

I remember when I used to be a school. It was complicated having all those kids inside me.