Considering career switch/going to law school - How awful of an idea is this? Forum

[bnl44]

I have a good job, make around 85k, can reasonably expect 100k within 1-3 years. I'm 25 and have a BS in math and work in insurance (actuary, not yet credentialed but close). 3.9 GPA from top 50 school (closer to the bottom of the top 50). About 15k left in student debt but I can pay it off fairly quickly.

On and off for the past few years I've been considering switching careers. I really like a lot of aspects of my job but I have an interest in law. My current work involves pricing casualty insurance products and I've developed an interest in things like products liability, I enjoy reading about the legal aspect of insurance and what claims get paid, etc. I also have a strong interest in things like anti-trust, M&A- just things I find interesting to occasionally read about in the news, etc. I enjoyed microeconomics a lot in school, and I enjoy the parts of the actuarial exams dealing with regulation, insurance law, policy wording - the parts most people hate. I've considered switching to economics consulting a few times, which is like litigation consulting/helping out expert witness with economics analysis, but that partially feels like a psychological step backwards, it's a pay cut, and I'd need to go to grad school to progress and it'd probably still be a pay cut, plus while there'd be more exposure to legal issues a lot of it might just continue being Excel/math/data analysis all day. Honestly I'm kind of sick of data and math and programming. I find myself bored at work. I did some soul searching and I think I may really want to be a lawyer.

I consider myself pretty smart. I know everyone does, but I think if I really prepped for the LSAT I could do well. For one thing I'm used to taking extremely hard tests for my current job, and I generally have a good sense of logic. I'm not just a math person- always been good at writing, pretty good at arguing.

This was NEVER a life goal I had for myself before but the more I think about it the more it seems like something I may want to pursue. Since graduating, I've become a lot more interested in economics, public policy, social studies, politics, than I ever was in college. In college I was generally a math person though I did well in other classes.

I think I'd only do it if I could get into a top school, and I'd only apply if I had killer LSAT scores.

Goal would be big law, litigation.

It doesn't really make sense from a financial perspective. I'd be giving up 3 years of salary in addition to probably paying a fortune. But I just think I might find my career more rewarding/intellectually stimulating/interesting.

What are things I should know? For example what are the worst parts about being an attorney and what are red flags that might mean it'd be a bad fit for me? What type of work do people do starting out? How high of an LSAT score do you need to get into top schools? What would it take for you to go to law school in my situation? Would my background help at all/be of any relevance/valued as an attorney?

Not jumping into things, just exploring the possibility right now..

[dabigchina]

My understanding is being a licensed actuary is like the best work/life/compensation balance anybody can aspire to in the 21st century. Is this not the case?

As someone who went to LS several years out of undergrad, I would say be prepared to take a cut in standard of living. Living like a student sucks.

ETA: how many hours a day do you work now? Lawyers work a shitload and do really mundane stuff all day/night long. Honestly, if i had the math skills to be an actuary I'd probably stick to that.

[bnl44]

My understanding is being a licensed actuary is like the best work/life/compensation balance anybody can aspire to in the 21st century. Is this not the case?

As someone who went to LS several years out of undergrad, I would say be prepared to take a cut in standard of living. Living like a student sucks.

edited for words

The work/life/compensation balance is good. I guess I don't value the work/life balance as much as I thought I would. The compensation is nice, I'm paid way too much probably for what I do which is mostly just work in Excel all day and go to meetings.

Yeah, standard of living could be an adjustment- I save a ton/don't spend very much, but just the ability to not really have to worry about money is nice. Possibly switching to roommates could be a pain. But for 3 years ish I think I could live.

What are the biggest reasons to become a lawyer? Just money? Or what are the best aspects?

I think I just feel like years down the line I may feel like I didn't really live up to my full potential, and if I'm already bored after 3 years I imagine will be significantly more bored in 10. Career track would probably move into management which could be interesting but at the end of the day it's still more of the same just more meetings, less Excel, same concepts, mostly a focus on data and using data to determine reserves and premiums. Basically I find the insurance aspect very interesting but the math and programming parts less so. Of course I could move into other insurance careers but when I sit back and think "what would my ideal job be," "lawyer" keeps popping into my head.

[t-14orbust]

My understanding is being a licensed actuary is like the best work/life/compensation balance anybody can aspire to in the 21st century. Is this not the case?

As someone who went to LS several years out of undergrad, I would say be prepared to take a cut in standard of living. Living like a student sucks.

edited for words

The work/life/compensation balance is good. I guess I don't value the work/life balance as much as I thought I would. The compensation is nice, I'm paid way too much probably for what I do which is mostly just work in Excel all day and go to meetings.

Yeah, standard of living could be an adjustment- I save a ton/don't spend very much, but just the ability to not really have to worry about money is nice. Possibly switching to roommates could be a pain. But for 3 years ish I think I could live.

What are the biggest reasons TO become a lawyer? Just money? Or what are the best aspects?

I think I just feel like years down the line I may feel like I didn't really live up to my full potential, and if I'm already bored after 3 years I imagine will be significantly more bored in 10. Career track would probably move into management which could be interesting but at the end of the day it's still more of the same just more meetings, less Excel, same concepts, mostly a focus on data and using data to determine reserves and premiums. Basically I find the insurance aspect very interesting but the math and programming parts less so. Of course I could move into other insurance careers but when I sit back and think "what would my ideal job be," "lawyer" keeps popping into my head.

what do you think lawyers do, exactly? it's a lot more in the weeds than you might think

[dabigchina]

your life sounds 10/10. don't try to find meaning in work. go find a hobby/start a family.

I guarantee you nobody is wondering "What if I had gone to HLS" on their deathbed.

ETA: you start valuing work life balance as soon as you don't have any of it.

[bnl44]

My understanding is being a licensed actuary is like the best work/life/compensation balance anybody can aspire to in the 21st century. Is this not the case?

As someone who went to LS several years out of undergrad, I would say be prepared to take a cut in standard of living. Living like a student sucks.

edited for words

The work/life/compensation balance is good. I guess I don't value the work/life balance as much as I thought I would. The compensation is nice, I'm paid way too much probably for what I do which is mostly just work in Excel all day and go to meetings.

Yeah, standard of living could be an adjustment- I save a ton/don't spend very much, but just the ability to not really have to worry about money is nice. Possibly switching to roommates could be a pain. But for 3 years ish I think I could live.

What are the biggest reasons TO become a lawyer? Just money? Or what are the best aspects?

I think I just feel like years down the line I may feel like I didn't really live up to my full potential, and if I'm already bored after 3 years I imagine will be significantly more bored in 10. Career track would probably move into management which could be interesting but at the end of the day it's still more of the same just more meetings, less Excel, same concepts, mostly a focus on data and using data to determine reserves and premiums. Basically I find the insurance aspect very interesting but the math and programming parts less so. Of course I could move into other insurance careers but when I sit back and think "what would my ideal job be," "lawyer" keeps popping into my head.

what do you think lawyers do, exactly? it's a lot more in the weeds than you might think

That's probably what I'm trying to figure out.

Read. Write. Research. Evaluate arguments. I imagine dealing with contract wordings, looking at historical cases, determining applicability to the issue at hand, crafting arguments, writing up memos, things like that. But honestly I don't really know, I don't know any lawyers.

What is the day to day work like?

I think I find law interesting, but it's a good point that I could hate the work.

[bnl44]

your life sounds 10/10. don't try to find meaning in work. go find a hobby/start a family.

I guarantee you nobody is wondering "What if I had gone to HLS" on their deathbed.

ETA: you start valuing work life balance as soon as you don't have any of it.

That's what I'm looking to hear, honestly (convince me I'm nuts), so thanks.

At the same time, I do think I am one of those people who values work a lot. I didn't think I would be, but once I started working it really has become a part of who I am, which is weird. I'm a lot more ambitious than I was a few years ago and care a lot more about my job than I thought I would.

[dabigchina]

your life sounds 10/10. don't try to find meaning in work. go find a hobby/start a family.

I guarantee you nobody is wondering "What if I had gone to HLS" on their deathbed.

ETA: you start valuing work life balance as soon as you don't have any of it.

That's what I'm looking to hear, honestly (convince me I'm nuts), so thanks.

At the same time, I do think I am one of those people who values work a lot. I didn't think I would be, but once I started working it really has become a part of who I am, which is weird. I'm a lot more ambitious than I was a few years ago and care a lot more about my job than I thought I would.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=263406

There're a bunch of these if you're interested. Just browse the legal employment forum.

[landshoes]

You probably have a good shot at a tax spot, so you should research that element of biglaw as well. It's a little different from litigation, obviously.

Maybe you should look at business school, too. It seems much more flexible and you might be the kind of person who likes to change jobs every few years. Nothing wrong with that, but JDs tend to pigeonhole you.

Biglawitigation is kind of a weird field. The people I know who like it okay are not creative, argument-critique types who like new challenges. They're the nose-to-the-grindstone, very organized, very detail-oriented types. But they're in big law and other litigation situations might be different.

Maybe you would like academia or a PhD program. They're long shots, but you seem bright enough to get into YLS and take a shot at it. People who can understand business law from a business point of view are relatively in demand in academic hiring. It's not the world's most practical career, but for people who have the credentials it can be solid.

[bnl44]

You probably have a good shot at a tax spot, so you should research that element of biglaw as well. It's a little different from litigation, obviously.

Maybe you should look at business school, too. It seems much more flexible and you might be the kind of person who likes to change jobs every few years. Nothing wrong with that, but JDs tend to pigeonhole you.

Biglawitigation is kind of a weird field. The people I know who like it okay are not creative, argument-critique types who like new challenges. They're the nose-to-the-grindstone, very organized, very detail-oriented types. But they're in big law and other litigation situations might be different.

Maybe you would like academia or a PhD program. They're long shots, but you seem bright enough to get into YLS and take a shot at it. People who can understand business law from a business point of view are relatively in demand in academic hiring. It's not the world's most practical career, but for people who have the credentials it can be solid.

Definitely 0 interest in tax. My least favorite part of my job is anything having to do with accounting or taxes.

I like the regulatory (aside from taxes) part- how insurance companies and government interact. And I like the claims coverage part - like what claims are covered, why, why not. Products in the insurance world that I find interesting are products liability, general liability, professional liability, med mal, etc. Workers compensation can be interesting too.

No interest at all in academia, PhDs, etc. I'm not an academic. And money is important to me to some extent. And all an MBA would set me up for would be stuff I can currently do without going back to school, and doesn't really seem to add a legal aspect, which is my interest.

Thanks for your input, will consider what you said.

[Foghornleghorn]

Go to the vale of tears on TLS. Read the horror stories.

Go to the thread "So you wanna be a NY associate". Read the thread. Go to work next week. Compare the two.

For bonus points, document in excruciating detail all the work you did during the day. Be sure to document it in 6 minute increments. Imagine doing that every day for the rest of your career.

That's not to naysay going to law school. But, you seem to be weighing all of the pros of being a Partner (read around on TLS to learn about the 'up or out' model) without considering the risks.

You say money is important to you but you seem eager to forgo roughly 240k in income and incur 50-60k of debt. That's IF AND ONLY IF you get a full ride (without one you could be taking on more debt than a lot of home purchasers) to Law School.

To echo others, pile up some money and consider an MBA program. Efforts at the GMAT with your background could get you into a Top 6 program. Your exit salary would be 120-135k with potentially much better job security.

pretty good at arguing.

Everyone thinks they're good at arguing. Everyone thinks they're funny. Oral argument will make up almost none of your career.

Since graduating, I've become a lot more interested in economics, public policy, social studies, politics, than I ever was in college

Biglaw involves none of this. If you're interested in the above, read the Economist.

What are the biggest reasons to become a lawyer?

To practice law.

I did some soul searching and I think I may really want to be a lawyer.

It sounds more like you want to be a guest star on law and order or suits.

[Fed_Atty]

I switched from engineering to law. Is there a school anywhere near you that you could attend at night and keep your current job? Preferably with a big scholarship. Granted, I had a family when I went to law school, but going at night allowed me to keep my options open and provided a safety net in case things didn't work out.

[mvp99]

I know one actuary, i think he has 3 exams or something, prob earns around 150k + benefits + equity + lux company car (not an entry level lux, 70k+), he seems to be his own boss at work basically and hes treated like any high level management exec. Is this what you'll be missing out of you go to LS?

[Mack.Hambleton]

Now I want to be an actuary

[pppp]

I know one actuary, i think he has 3 exams or something, prob earns around 150k + benefits + equity + lux company car (not an entry level lux, 70k+), he seems to be his own boss at work basically and hes treated like any high level management exec. Is this what you'll be missing out of you go to LS?

This is not normal at all. This guy probably has more than 3 exams passed and makes 85k as he posted in op. I would suggest to OP at least putting it off a couple years. There's no rush to go back to school and if in a few years you need a career change, law school will still be there. Only, you'll probably have gotten rid of your debt and have a decent savings by then. I would also say only go to law school for a 175+ on the LSAT which should be attainable if you're that logical, the lsat should be a breeze. That would give you opportunities at HArvard, Yale, Stanford where you have the opportunity for more interesting law jobs.

[Lawyers&Commissary]

OP you should check out this thread to help you get more of a sense of what lawyers do:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=228583

[bnl44]

I know one actuary, i think he has 3 exams or something, prob earns around 150k + benefits + equity + lux company car (not an entry level lux, 70k+), he seems to be his own boss at work basically and hes treated like any high level management exec. Is this what you'll be missing out of you go to LS?

Not normal. Equity is not normal at all. 150k is normal if you pass way more than 3 exams and have been working 10 years+. Generally you need 3 exams to get an entry-level job. Some companies fire you if you can't pass any more. Never heard of anyone even the most senior executives having a company car. We all work in cubicles including people managing several people with SVP titles. No one has an office.

Also my work life balance personally is very good but not necessarily the norm. Definitely have friends doing 60/70 hour weeks, and those who work in consulting and make more do have billable hours etc.

Anyway, I personally do have a very good job though. And I don't hate it. There are a lot of aspects I like. Appreciate all the advice. It's not like I have law and order fantasies here- I don't think I'm delusional about what law entails. And I think part of the reason a lot of people end up unhappy is because they made the decision early in life without knowing what they were getting into.. Maybe I still have that problem too, I don't know. But I do think I find legal matters interesting. The comment about economics, public policy etc. wasn't to say I thought that'd be the job exactly- just to indicate that my interests have really shifted away from just math and data and that I'm not completely the stereotypical number cruncher. My ideal job would be researching products liability suits or reading about anti-trust matters and determining applicability to the current matter at hand.

Not rushing into anything. Hoping to get credentialed within a year and I probably wouldn't think about it seriously until after that. I really think I'd only do it for like Harvard etc. and it's quite possible I'd have no shot anyway.

I thought about this a few years ago and told myself to see if I still felt this way a few years down the line.. and I still do.

[Londonbear]

What are the biggest reasons TO become a lawyer? Just money? Or what are the best aspects?

I think if you're asking us to give you the reasons, you likely won't find any, especially on TLS. I think most of the advice, especially for Biglaw, is to steer far away from it unless you're one of the few that doesn't mind the actual tediousness of the work and can deal with the fact that your life is work, and everything else is arranged around it. And you'll likely find that many will say that the money doesn't add up, considering you have pretty much minimal life outside of work. Basically, you should have enough reasons on your own for wanting to do it if you want it to last, if you're willing to give up your cushy gig for it b/c the reality of actually practicing law will chip away at a lot of it.

As for the other questions, such as how high of an LSAT score for top schools, you want 170+, you can get comfortably w/that GPA probably in the mid 160's, or even lower, but the higher up, the more money you'll likely be offered. And if you want BigLaw, obviously go to the best school that accepts you but gives you money.

I don't think you need to know specifically what you want to do before you enter law school. I didn't really know anything about the different firms or even whether I wanted to do transactional or litigation. Then in law school, you start to become really aware, really fast about what you're good at, what you can't stand, and what you want. I guess at the end of the day, it's just whether you think there's enough there to take the leap. Go to the legal employment section, tends to have a lot of postings. There's one i think it's called typical day of a lawyer or something like that and read through some of them.

[Dads707]

Can you move into something like a remote PT "consulting" gig (ideally doing similar work to what you do now) with your current employer while attending school?

[pancakes3]

3.9 math major opens a lot of wall street doors - and not just ibanking. Or b-school. I wouldn't dwell on the possibilities that law school offers.

I mean yeah, with your GPA and adequate studying for the LSAT HYS is within shouting distance, and T6 is more likely than not. But that only points you toward a job with biglaw and when it's all said and done you're going to be 4-5 years removed from a job that is only tangentially related (at best) to what you're envisioning.