Of ABA accredited schools, where is the "regional school" cut-off Forum

HxAxDxExS · Post by **HxAxDxExS** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:23 pm

I have a 4.0 GPA, and unfortunately I am not due for my LSAT this year. I am not looking for any specific answers, or "depending on..." Just stricly speaking from research. Although I would be opposed to this type of question, I am going to start a thread on it. On the list of ABA Accredited institutions, at what place would the cut off be for "regional law schools" T-20? T30? T40? after what spot is a school nationally considered a regional law school? Yes, I am aware you can google if a law school is a regional school or not, but based on experience with these schools and everything about them, after what spot would you guys say the cut off is at?
http://law-schools.startclass.com/saved ... aw-Schools or on tls lol

chalky · Post by **chalky** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:26 pm

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basedvulpes · Post by **basedvulpes** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:27 pm

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basedvulpes · Post by **basedvulpes** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:29 pm

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Mack.Hambleton · Post by **Mack.Hambleton** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:36 pm

Johann · Post by **Johann** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:47 pm

just go to the school in the region you think youre gonna work (if not T14). if it turns out you need to change regions after graduating, its probably for a very real reason that you can explain in an interview, and you won't be at a disadvantage. school is just the easiest and most natural way to establish ties but its not like someone who went to alabama and needs to move to oklahoma because her husband took a job in oklahoma will mean that person can't get a job in oklahoma because they went to alabama.

HxAxDxExS · Post by **HxAxDxExS** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:58 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:just go to the school in the region you think youre gonna work (if not T14). if it turns out you need to change regions after graduating, its probably for a very real reason that you can explain in an interview, and you won't be at a disadvantage. school is just the easiest and most natural way to establish ties but its not like someone who went to alabama and needs to move to oklahoma because her husband took a job in oklahoma will mean that person can't get a job in oklahoma because they went to alabama.

About the last part, of course not. what if I can work in any region, what should I take into consideration then? I mean I have lived in the Bay Area (CA) and in Las Vegas most of my life since moving from Romania, I know I can transfer to the regions if I were to get into the schools I am looking into in the Bay Area if i get into them (Stanford, Boalt, Hastings, etc) but I am considering applying on the other side of the ocean somewhere, I am just wondering if I will regret it or not.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:05 pm

it depends on what you like in your life and what kind of job you want.

i like cheaper COL cities because i like living in a city but also like having a variety of jobs available - biglaw, govt, big corporations etc.

chicago, texas, atl, charlotte would all be cool

HxAxDxExS · Post by **HxAxDxExS** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:40 am

JohannDeMann wrote:it depends on what you like in your life and what kind of job you want.

i like cheaper COL cities because i like living in a city but also like having a variety of jobs available - biglaw, govt, big corporations etc.

chicago, texas, atl, charlotte would all be cool

Right, so basically any T40? If they have a variety of jobs available? (Depending on which I get accepted into, I plan on applying to 12+ schools) I was thinking I would like the city life (Philly, DC, NYC) Although, I would not mind somewhere more rural,(VA, GA) or perhaps, even country. (SC, NC etc). I have been in the construction business for some time, so I can always move back to the Bay Area and run the company with my father (or a subsidiary). I am going to law school simply because I love the law and I will do any job if the numbers match up and if it will benefit me in other ways opposed to just a salary. Getting an MBA will benefit me as well, and it will help with my entrepreneurial plans. So, basically, what factors should I take into account? I am simply down for any type of law school, and I have a 4.0 GPA right now. I am not due for the LSAT but luckily it is in my strongest field(s) (Reading, comprehension, logic, etc). I will probably have a harder time on the GSAT.

lymenheimer · Post by **lymenheimer** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:43 am

HxAxDxExS wrote:
About the last part, of course not. what if I can work in any region, what should I take into consideration then? I mean I have lived in the Bay Area (CA) and in Las Vegas most of my life since moving from Romania, I know I can transfer to the regions if I were to get into the schools I am looking into in the Bay Area if i get into them (Stanford, Boalt, Hastings, etc) but I am considering applying on the other side of the ocean somewhere, I am just wondering if I will regret it or not.

Sooooo...China, Japan?

basedvulpes · Post by **basedvulpes** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:45 am

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HxAxDxExS · Post by **HxAxDxExS** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:51 am

lymenheimer wrote:
HxAxDxExS wrote:
About the last part, of course not. what if I can work in any region, what should I take into consideration then? I mean I have lived in the Bay Area (CA) and in Las Vegas most of my life since moving from Romania, I know I can transfer to the regions if I were to get into the schools I am looking into in the Bay Area if i get into them (Stanford, Boalt, Hastings, etc) but I am considering applying on the other side of the ocean somewhere, I am just wondering if I will regret it or not.
Sooooo...China, Japan?

I said that wrong, I meant live on the other side of the country, anywhere on the other coast (next to the Atlantic opposed to the Pacific). I definitely will go to law school where the country has common law.

lymenheimer · Post by **lymenheimer** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:55 am

HxAxDxExS wrote:
lymenheimer wrote:
HxAxDxExS wrote:
About the last part, of course not. what if I can work in any region, what should I take into consideration then? I mean I have lived in the Bay Area (CA) and in Las Vegas most of my life since moving from Romania, I know I can transfer to the regions if I were to get into the schools I am looking into in the Bay Area if i get into them (Stanford, Boalt, Hastings, etc) but I am considering applying on the other side of the ocean somewhere, I am just wondering if I will regret it or not.
Sooooo...China, Japan?
I said that wrong, I meant live on the other side of the country, anywhere on the other coast (next to the Atlantic opposed to the Pacific). I definitely will go to law school where the country has common law.

HxAxDxExS · Post by **HxAxDxExS** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:56 am

basedvulpes wrote:
HxAxDxExS wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:it depends on what you like in your life and what kind of job you want.

i like cheaper COL cities because i like living in a city but also like having a variety of jobs available - biglaw, govt, big corporations etc.

chicago, texas, atl, charlotte would all be cool
Right, so basically any T40? If they have a variety of jobs available?
T40s are definitely not national schools.

Exactly my point, so where would the cut off be? I don't want to go to a school where most jobs will be in that state (Sure, I will work in that state if it is nice enough, and depending on the jobs offered. I want to be able to have a J.D. that if I go anywhere else it would be as beneficial as I want it to be) Hell, even another country.

basedvulpes · Post by **basedvulpes** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:57 am

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abl · Post by **abl** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:03 pm

Only the T14 are truly national schools (and even within the T14, you will usually have a noticeable leg up in region). Schools ranked between 15 and 20-25 or so are strong regional schools that regularly feed several top students to top firms out of region. In other words, if you finish in the top ~10% at one of these schools, you will generally have a reasonable shot nationally. Outside of the top ~25 schools or so (and there aren't clear cutoffs for regionals like there are for the T14), you'll probably be limited to jobs in the region that the school is located even if you do well in law school.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:26 pm

HxAxDxExS wrote:
basedvulpes wrote:
HxAxDxExS wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:it depends on what you like in your life and what kind of job you want.

i like cheaper COL cities because i like living in a city but also like having a variety of jobs available - biglaw, govt, big corporations etc.

chicago, texas, atl, charlotte would all be cool
Right, so basically any T40? If they have a variety of jobs available?
T40s are definitely not national schools.
Exactly my point, so where would the cut off be? I don't want to go to a school where most jobs will be in that state (Sure, I will work in that state if it is nice enough, and depending on the jobs offered. I want to be able to have a J.D. that if I go anywhere else it would be as beneficial as I want it to be) Hell, even another country.

It's about ties. If someone in California is competitive at a job with a UC Davis degree, they are competitive with a UNC degree. If someone in Chicago is competitive with an Illinois degree, they are competitive with an Ohio State degree. If someone in Texas is competitive with a Texas Tech degree, a degree from MSU is too.

The point that makes it hard is this - demonstrating ties. It's much easier to demonstrate ties with a local degree than explain why you aren't gonna pack your shit and leave in 1 year of being in the location. It's also easier to ifnd job opportunities and places to apply at local school because Chicago advertises its jobs at Chicago law schools, not Michigan State.

The TLS regional vs. national brand or whatever is dumb as fuck. Yeah Georgetown will get you more jobs than a TTT college. But getting a degree from a shitty law school in a certain city doesn't mean you can only work in that city. It'sm ostly self selection in that people who go to shitty law schools usually stay close to home and work close because its their home. But I haven't encountered anyone that tried to move from a TTT and couldn't because of their school name.

chalky · Post by **chalky** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:33 pm

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scone · Post by **scone** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:42 pm

HxAxDxExS wrote:I want to be able to have a J.D. that if I go anywhere else it would be as beneficial as I want it to be) Hell, even another country.

Only H, Y, and possibly S really fit the last criterion. Or - if you're happy to look further afield - Oxbridge also teach common law.

HxAxDxExS · Post by **HxAxDxExS** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:13 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
HxAxDxExS wrote:
basedvulpes wrote:
HxAxDxExS wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:it depends on what you like in your life and what kind of job you want.

i like cheaper COL cities because i like living in a city but also like having a variety of jobs available - biglaw, govt, big corporations etc.

chicago, texas, atl, charlotte would all be cool
Right, so basically any T40? If they have a variety of jobs available?
T40s are definitely not national schools.
Exactly my point, so where would the cut off be? I don't want to go to a school where most jobs will be in that state (Sure, I will work in that state if it is nice enough, and depending on the jobs offered. I want to be able to have a J.D. that if I go anywhere else it would be as beneficial as I want it to be) Hell, even another country.
It's about ties. If someone in California is competitive at a job with a UC Davis degree, they are competitive with a UNC degree. If someone in Chicago is competitive with an Illinois degree, they are competitive with an Ohio State degree. If someone in Texas is competitive with a Texas Tech degree, a degree from MSU is too.

The point that makes it hard is this - demonstrating ties. It's much easier to demonstrate ties with a local degree than explain why you aren't gonna pack your shit and leave in 1 year of being in the location. It's also easier to ifnd job opportunities and places to apply at local school because Chicago advertises its jobs at Chicago law schools, not Michigan State.

The TLS regional vs. national brand or whatever is dumb as fuck. Yeah Georgetown will get you more jobs than a TTT college. But getting a degree from a shitty law school in a certain city doesn't mean you can only work in that city. It'sm ostly self selection in that people who go to shitty law schools usually stay close to home and work close because its their home. But I haven't encountered anyone that tried to move from a TTT and couldn't because of their school name.

Nicely said. If you have strong ties, you may still work at the firm you want (obviously) even attending a regional school? Yet again, ties are made through school some of the time. So based on what I am looking for, I should not consider anything past T25? or even T14? If I maintain my GPA and get a high LSAT score

HxAxDxExS · Post by **HxAxDxExS** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:16 pm

chalky wrote:OP, if you don't know where you want to live and practice, you need to go to a T14. If you're open to living any number of places, then the world is your oyster. But if you think you'll go to Bama and have no problem landing a job in Seattle, I think you're mistaken. You may have no problem landing a job in Bay Area CA (you have strong ties), but a regional school is a regional school.

Then the world is my oyster

. So having strong ties in the Bay Area, and gaining ties from going to grad school there. If I don't get into Berkeley/Standford, what would your guys' thoughts be on if I were to go to a school like Hastings, or the numerous other law schools in the Bay Area?

HxAxDxExS · Post by **HxAxDxExS** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:28 pm

Additionally, if you were in my position. Would you just finish your bachelor's where I am right now in Las Vegas, at UNLV. Or forego the ten's of thousands of dollars it will cost my first year transferring back to the Bay Area(Non-resident tuition for first year) to attend a school out there like Saint Mary's. Would my best bet be to stay at UNLV?

abl · Post by **abl** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:45 pm

First, I don't understand why you'd transfer from UNLV. You're clearly doing well there, you presumably like it, and you're not talking about transferring to a better school.

Second, it's not the case that someone in the top 25% at UC Davis (tied for 31 in USNews) will be equally as competitive for an Atlanta job as someone in the top 25% at UGA (tied for 31 in USNews). This will continue to not be true even if you have strong Atlanta ties. Local firms almost always prefer local schools. Maybe even more importantly, local firms will almost always interview at local firms. Having a firm interviewing at your school is a huge advantage. Sure, you might be able to get a job via resume drop or an email, but your chances will be far greater if the hiring pipeline is already there. Ties matter a lot--especially if you're trying to break into a more insular market, or are trying to break into a region into which your law school typically does not feed--but ties are not the only factor in hiring.

Third, there are real differences between regional markets. You've mentioned the Bay Area. Because so many folks want to live in the Bay Area, and because Stanford and Berkeley are there, going to UCDavis is going to provide less of a leg up for getting a job in SF than going to UGA will be for Atlanta. But don't take this to mean you should go to the regional law school that serves the smallest and most insular market. There's also obviously some balancing here: there tend to be far more legal jobs in big cities than in small cities, so going to a rural school that dominates its local market isn't necessarily an advantage over going somewhere like Fordham that doesn't. I'm sure that there are some regional schools that hit more of a sweet spot here than others -- e.g., they dominate their local market, which has a fairly robust legal landscape. My instinct is that cities with one or more elite law schools (like SF/Chicago/NY) or cities that are particularly desirable to grads from elsewhere (like SF/Chicago/NY/DC/LA) are going to be harder to break into from a regional school even if it's in that region. If you can't get into Stanford or Berkeley, and are ambivalent about where you'd like to practice, I'd probably preference a top regional school in a non-SF region in which you have ties over somewhere like UC-Davis (assuming roughly similar (~10-15 spots) USNews ranks). That said, if I were you, I wouldn't treat a legal career in SF as equivalent to a legal career in Atlanta--but that's purely personal preference.

HxAxDxExS · Post by **HxAxDxExS** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:32 pm

abl wrote:First, I don't understand why you'd transfer from UNLV. You're clearly doing well there, you presumably like it, and you're not talking about transferring to a better school.

Second, it's not the case that someone in the top 25% at UC Davis (tied for 31 in USNews) will be equally as competitive for an Atlanta job as someone in the top 25% at UGA (tied for 31 in USNews). This will continue to not be true even if you have strong Atlanta ties. Local firms almost always prefer local schools. Maybe even more importantly, local firms will almost always interview at local firms. Having a firm interviewing at your school is a huge advantage. Sure, you might be able to get a job via resume drop or an email, but your chances will be far greater if the hiring pipeline is already there. Ties matter a lot--especially if you're trying to break into a more insular market, or are trying to break into a region into which your law school typically does not feed--but ties are not the only factor in hiring.

Third, there are real differences between regional markets. You've mentioned the Bay Area. Because so many folks want to live in the Bay Area, and because Stanford and Berkeley are there, going to UCDavis is going to provide less of a leg up for getting a job in SF than going to UGA will be for Atlanta. But don't take this to mean you should go to the regional law school that serves the smallest and most insular market. There's also obviously some balancing here: there tend to be far more legal jobs in big cities than in small cities, so going to a rural school that dominates its local market isn't necessarily an advantage over going somewhere like Fordham that doesn't. I'm sure that there are some regional schools that hit more of a sweet spot here than others -- e.g., they dominate their local market, which has a fairly robust legal landscape. My instinct is that cities with one or more elite law schools (like SF/Chicago/NY) or cities that are particularly desirable to grads from elsewhere (like SF/Chicago/NY/DC/LA) are going to be harder to break into from a regional school even if it's in that region. If you can't get into Stanford or Berkeley, and are ambivalent about where you'd like to practice, I'd probably preference a top regional school in a non-SF region in which you have ties over somewhere like UC-Davis (assuming roughly similar (~10-15 spots) USNews ranks). That said, if I were you, I wouldn't treat a legal career in SF as equivalent to a legal career in Atlanta--but that's purely personal preference.

So basically if I get into T14 school(s), go to them or consider going somewhere else over a T14 school if I prefer the market more for that specific college, respectively? Also I have the same preferences as you do, and Thank you.

HxAxDxExS · Post by **HxAxDxExS** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:36 pm

HxAxDxExS wrote:
abl wrote:First, I don't understand why you'd transfer from UNLV. You're clearly doing well there, you presumably like it, and you're not talking about transferring to a better school.

Second, it's not the case that someone in the top 25% at UC Davis (tied for 31 in USNews) will be equally as competitive for an Atlanta job as someone in the top 25% at UGA (tied for 31 in USNews). This will continue to not be true even if you have strong Atlanta ties. Local firms almost always prefer local schools. Maybe even more importantly, local firms will almost always interview at local firms. Having a firm interviewing at your school is a huge advantage. Sure, you might be able to get a job via resume drop or an email, but your chances will be far greater if the hiring pipeline is already there. Ties matter a lot--especially if you're trying to break into a more insular market, or are trying to break into a region into which your law school typically does not feed--but ties are not the only factor in hiring.

Third, there are real differences between regional markets. You've mentioned the Bay Area. Because so many folks want to live in the Bay Area, and because Stanford and Berkeley are there, going to UCDavis is going to provide less of a leg up for getting a job in SF than going to UGA will be for Atlanta. But don't take this to mean you should go to the regional law school that serves the smallest and most insular market. There's also obviously some balancing here: there tend to be far more legal jobs in big cities than in small cities, so going to a rural school that dominates its local market isn't necessarily an advantage over going somewhere like Fordham that doesn't. I'm sure that there are some regional schools that hit more of a sweet spot here than others -- e.g., they dominate their local market, which has a fairly robust legal landscape. My instinct is that cities with one or more elite law schools (like SF/Chicago/NY) or cities that are particularly desirable to grads from elsewhere (like SF/Chicago/NY/DC/LA) are going to be harder to break into from a regional school even if it's in that region. If you can't get into Stanford or Berkeley, and are ambivalent about where you'd like to practice, I'd probably preference a top regional school in a non-SF region in which you have ties over somewhere like UC-Davis (assuming roughly similar (~10-15 spots) USNews ranks). That said, if I were you, I wouldn't treat a legal career in SF as equivalent to a legal career in Atlanta--but that's purely personal preference.
So basically if I get into T14 school(s), go to them. Because considering going elsewhere if I prefer the market there for that specific college, respectively, I would be able to do it anyway if I went T14? Also I have the same preferences as you do, Thank you.