Sales instead of law? Forum

[Aquila]

At this moment, planning on attending a T2 with a 100% scholarship. I have wavering thoughts about do I really want to be a lawyer. I am not afraid of law school itself though.

I am currently a waiter at a chain and I absolutely love it. I was curious if anyone has used that type of sales experience to get a real sales job. I love persuading people to buy shit that they don't need.

What opportunities are there, how is the economy in the sales field lately, is it lucrative

[jchiles]

There is a pretty strong overlap between people that go to law school and people that dislike the idea of working in sales, at least from my observation, but it's a job more people with "useless" degrees should consider. I don't think there is a sales economy you can base your decision on, because a lot of salesmen are selling an specific product.

Whether real estate is lucrative depends entirely on your location and connections; you know better than us how the residential and commercial property market is where you live. I have a lot of friends doing well in sales jobs, but I don't think any of them view their job as selling people stuff they don't need.

[Aquila]

There is a pretty strong overlap between people that go to law school and people that dislike the idea of working in sales, at least from my observation, but it's a job more people with "useless" degrees should consider. I don't think there is a sales economy you can base your decision on, because a lot of salesmen are selling an specific product.

Whether real estate is lucrative depends entirely on your location and connections; you know better than us how the residential and commercial property market is where you live. I have a lot of friends doing well in sales jobs, but I don't think any of them view their job as selling people stuff they don't need.

When i said stuff they don't need, i meant like extra food

[Aquila]

[quote="jchiles"]There is a pretty strong overlap between people that go to law school and people that dislike the idea of working in sales, at least from my observation, but it's a job more people with "useless" degrees should consider. I don't think there is a sales economy you can base your decision on, because a lot of salesmen are selling an specific product.

My degrees are psychology and criminal justice so pretty useless

[kalvano]

Commissioned sales absolutely sucks entirely. I much prefer being a lawyer to sales.

[Aquila]

Commissioned sales absolutely sucks entirely. I much prefer being a lawyer to sales.

care to expand?

[kalvano]

What would you like me to expand on? Commissioned sales sucks by its nature. No matter what you sell, it will be a "what have you done for me lately" mindset and a feast or famine in income.

[Johann]

I have no idea how to get into sales, but if you have viable path into it, I would check it out. The economy is good right now. I've read lots of articles also about how our generation views sales as inherently too risky so the compensation packages are getting pretty lucrative. If sales ends up sucking, law will always be on the table.

[landshoes]

I think that a lot of people who go into law should go into sales. If you're personable and decent at it, you can make a ton of money. You save it up and don't spend it stupidly, it's not a big deal to have a bad few months.

[Tiago Splitter]

My sister makes 400k a year selling shit at a car dealership. Other than the 5 community colleges she sort of attended she has about a ninth grade education. If you like selling and can do it, stick with that.

[Hutz_and_Goodman]

My sister makes 400k a year selling shit at a car dealership. Other than the 5 community colleges she sort of attended she has about a ninth grade education. If you like selling and can do it, stick with that.

+1

There is not much overlap between sales and being a lawyer
I would be on the verge of bankruptcy if I was in sales

[CanadianWolf]

Many commissioned sales people are given a specific territory & inherit the existing accounts within that territory (which constitutes a quasi base salary).

[Louis1127]

I would like ot balance out the overwhelmingly pro-sales folks's sentiment with some info of my own.

There are good things about it as previous posters have said. But there are negatives, especially if you are not lucky enough to get to be able to sell sophisticated products like surgical equipment. The biggest negative is the fluctuating income. You can't have a fluctuating mortgage, so the local economy can send you on many unexpected roller coasters. Many sales reps are 1099 employees. Also many sales reps are responsible for their own collections (I need not say any more there, haha)

[Tiago Splitter]

I would like ot balance out the overwhelmingly pro-sales folks's sentiment with some info of my own.

There are good things about it as previous posters have said. But there are negatives, especially if you are not lucky enough to get to be able to sell sophisticated products like surgical equipment. The biggest negative is the fluctuating income. You can't have a fluctuating mortgage, so the local economy can send you on many unexpected roller coasters. Many sales reps are 1099 employees. Also many sales reps are responsible for their own collections (I need not say any more there, haha)

The vast majority of people hate sales which is why most won't do it and most who try fail. But it sounds like this guy kind of likes it. If it doesn't work out he can always do something else.

[Louis1127]

I would like ot balance out the overwhelmingly pro-sales folks's sentiment with some info of my own.

There are good things about it as previous posters have said. But there are negatives, especially if you are not lucky enough to get to be able to sell sophisticated products like surgical equipment. The biggest negative is the fluctuating income. You can't have a fluctuating mortgage, so the local economy can send you on many unexpected roller coasters. Many sales reps are 1099 employees. Also many sales reps are responsible for their own collections (I need not say any more there, haha)

The vast majority of people hate sales which is why most won't do it and most who try fail. But it sounds like this guy kind of likes it. If it doesn't work out he can always do something else.

Oh I totally agree- try sales and see where it gets you, and law school isn't going anywhere. I just felt sales was getting treatment from the board that was a little generous.

[Aquila]

Anyone have any advice how to break into a sales job? I live near philadelphia if that helps with a psych/cj double degree

[xiao_long]

I would recommend doing sales at a high-end car dealership. A Maserati dealership recently opened up in my area and even with a half percent commission, that's probably $6,0000 for every Quattroporte you sell. I'd think it's much easier to do low-volume, high-margin sales than vice versa. I have a friend, a very bright guy, doing sales for security systems and he is struggling.

[Aquila]

I would recommend doing sales at a high-end car dealership. A Maserati dealership recently opened up in my area and even with a half percent commission, that's probably $6,0000 for every Quattroporte you sell. I'd think it's much easier to do low-volume, high-margin sales than vice versa. I have a friend, a very bright guy, doing sales for security systems and he is struggling.

True but would a high end dealer hire a recent grad with only food service selling experience

[Hornet2011]

Well as somebody who is currently Territory Sales Manager for a Fortune 500 company at 26 I feel I can speak pretty authoritatively to this question.

It ought to be said, there are all kinds of sales. Everybody is right that the product determines a lot, as business is cyclical. But sales roles and their compensation packages vary significantly, as does the quality (and style) of life that goes along with it.

First of all their are inside and outside sales -- outside generally being far more lucrative and lots of perks (company vehicle, home office, ability to write off all kinds of things for business purposes, expense accounts). You will almost certainly start inside -- my suggestion is find a role that is more "business development" aka limited cold-calling, more supporting the outside sales individuals or handling smaller accounts/ growing them into larger accounts as opposed to roles that are requiring you to generate lots of new accounts. You will either burn out of the latter or have a 5% chance of becoming the next rockstar at your company and be fast tracked to outside sales. Again, don't count on being in the 5%. Plus side, all inside sales are generally 8-5 jobs with maybe extra work at end of month, end of quarter. Starting salaries are anywhere from a low end of 35k to 55k, low 60s if your in something specialized like tech sales. These jobs can or cannot be mainly commissioned base. I would definitely inquire as to how frequently individuals hit their numbers so you can have a decent idea of whether or not you will be earning that commission / stress you will be under at work. (I am not in tech but in heavy machinery, but I have friends who are).

Outside sales are definitely not 9-5. You will be married to your cell phone and your laptop / tablet. However, you do get to make your own schedule and generally besides conference calls and regional / national sales meetings are free to make your own schedule as long as you hit your numbers. These jobs are heavily relationship based. You need to be excellent with people. Many people think they are excellent, when in fact they are just good / average. Definitely ask yourself if you will be able to hold your tongue and joke around with people who may have diametrically opposed viewpoints to your own, get chewed out for somebody else's failure (imagined or real in the eyes of the client, and again, answer your phone at all times / respond to emails when at dates, on vacation, at family gatherings. Also it goes without saying at this level you really are a business partner to them and are expected to have a sound understanding of company financials etc, but you will learn this in your first role if you don't know it already. There are certainly though a lot of pluses, again all the perks I talked about above, plus a very competitive base salary plus IC (incentive compensation package). Also lots of travel which can be a pro or con. To give you an idea, I cover several midwest states and make 70s with a total compensation package that if i hit my obtainable numbers is around 90-100 + benefits. My friends in tech sales usually(but not always, especially specialized tech or medical have both) have a lower base salary, but far more opportunity to hit high commission sales depending on the product. Again it depends on what field you can get into and your risk aversion. Personally I like it a lot and am only on TLS as I am considering when I do my MBA to do a JD if i can get into an accelerated program.

As for your next steps and anybody else's that is curious: my recommendation is to find a "Leadership Development" program if your an upcoming senior in college. If not, try for one of of those not cold calling, not new sales generating, jobs. I think for the right person this is obtainable, but remember, a couple bad client interactions / office politics flubs or one fiasco and your done. A buddy of mine handled one meeting with HR poorly and he was blacklisted forever and had to eventually leave when he saw the writing on the wall. Find out what the prospects are for moving out to outside sales or having direct accounts / clients on the inside. Finally you will need to look outside your immediate area or be willing to move to a new location at moment's notice. The best compensated sales people / those that move up place their career first. Those that don't and turn down a promotion because of relocation will not see one again for a very long time. Feel free to PM me if you want.

Best of luck

[kalvano]

I would recommend doing sales at a high-end car dealership. A Maserati dealership recently opened up in my area and even with a half percent commission, that's probably $6,0000 for every Quattroporte you sell. I'd think it's much easier to do low-volume, high-margin sales than vice versa. I have a friend, a very bright guy, doing sales for security systems and he is struggling.

It's not that much (you get paid on profit, not sticker price), and you don't just wander in and get a job at a place like that.

[Aquila]

I would recommend doing sales at a high-end car dealership. A Maserati dealership recently opened up in my area and even with a half percent commission, that's probably $6,0000 for every Quattroporte you sell. I'd think it's much easier to do low-volume, high-margin sales than vice versa. I have a friend, a very bright guy, doing sales for security systems and he is struggling.

It's not that much (you get paid on profit, not sticker price), and you don't just wander in and get a job at a place like that.

exactly what i was thinking

[bacillusanthracis]

If you're going to become an attorney, you better be able to sell yourself. It's one of those intangible things that no amount of law school can teach you though. You can get A's from start to finish but if you can't sign the client sitting in front of you, then you're not a lot better than a cigar-store indian.

Can you sell a client on your firm? Can you sell a jury on your argument? An appellate court? When you're out and about and just happen to hear someone talking about a matter you might be able to help them with, can you tactfully approach them and eventually land them (provided they actually need a lawyer)?

Of course not all attorney jobs require the above skills. But make no mistake about it, if you can't communicate to the person sitting across from you that you see their cause and themselves the same way they do, then find a job in the legal profession where your interaction with others is minimal. Or, if you get assigned to a case where one lawyer has just quit the firm and now you're picking where he/she left off with a client, can you make that client comfortable? Can you maintain their trust in the firm? If not then either right or wrong, that person may file a malpractice suit. The least negative thing that's going to happen is that they'll badmouth you and the firm to people they know, thereby cutting off any future business from that person and the people he/she knows.

And selling isn't, as the OP so crassly put it, "Selling people shit they don't need." If that's your attitude then get a gig at a crappy used car lot where people will expect to deal with a slimy salesman. It isn't about fooling some sucker, it's about showing them why your product is better in some way that's important to them; or why your argument is better. Further, people aren't that stupid. I guarantee if you're out to screw them, the vast, vast majority will see through that. And the leftovers are people one should be ashamed to take advantage of.

You think that because you're a waiter you're a good salesman? How tough is it to sell to somebody who came into the place on their own, is sitting in your section, and has no choice but to place an order through you? Here's a hint: that isn't sales. Unless of course, "Would you like dessert?" is considered sales. But it isn't.

When you have to compete with who knows how many other highly motivated people--not people who are motivated to get a good grade, but to put food on their family's table--then you'll understand what real sales are. And it's very personal. Often what a sale comes down to is who they like better--you or the other guy. Sometimes they like the other guy bette--and that hurts. This goes even more for business to business sales where the establishment of a relationship is so crucial, but it also applies to the legal field as well.

[kartelite]

If you're going to become an attorney, you better be able to sell yourself. It's one of those intangible things that no amount of law school can teach you though. You can get A's from start to finish but if you can't sign the client sitting in front of you, then you're not a lot better than a cigar-store indian.

Can you sell a client on your firm? Can you sell a jury on your argument? An appellate court? When you're out and about and just happen to hear someone talking about a matter you might be able to help them with, can you tactfully approach them and eventually land them (provided they actually need a lawyer)?

Of course not all attorney jobs require the above skills. But make no mistake about it, if you can't communicate to the person sitting across from you that you see their cause and themselves the same way they do, then find a job in the legal profession where your interaction with others is minimal. Or, if you get assigned to a case where one lawyer has just quit the firm and now you're picking where he/she left off with a client, can you make that client comfortable? Can you maintain their trust in the firm? If not then either right or wrong, that person may file a malpractice suit. The least negative thing that's going to happen is that they'll badmouth you and the firm to people they know, thereby cutting off any future business from that person and the people he/she knows.

And selling isn't, as the OP so crassly put it, "Selling people shit they don't need." If that's your attitude then get a gig at a crappy used car lot where people will expect to deal with a slimy salesman. It isn't about fooling some sucker, it's about showing them why your product is better in some way that's important to them; or why your argument is better. Further, people aren't that stupid. I guarantee if you're out to screw them, the vast, vast majority will see through that. And the leftovers are people one should be ashamed to take advantage of.

You think that because you're a waiter you're a good salesman? How tough is it to sell to somebody who came into the place on their own, is sitting in your section, and has no choice but to place an order through you? Here's a hint: that isn't sales. Unless of course, "Would you like dessert?" is considered sales. But it isn't.

When you have to compete with who knows how many other highly motivated people--not people who are motivated to get a good grade, but to put food on their family's table--then you'll understand what real sales are. And it's very personal. Often what a sale comes down to is who they like better--you or the other guy. Sometimes they like the other guy bette--and that hurts. This goes even more for business to business sales where the establishment of a relationship is so crucial, but it also applies to the legal field as well.

Good post. One of my best friends is in (tech-related) sales and does very well for himself, but he vastly outperforms everyone else around him. Over 90% of people struggle and end up quitting or hopping around between companies since it's an area really based on relationships and the trust you can build with clients. He has bank CTOs and other high-level execs calling him up when they need something - he works hard but his employer gives him a lot of flexibility since they realize the revenue he pulls in. Stay away from the shady consumer products and try to offer a high-value product (for example, data storage or IT services to companies) that you believe in and that could be lucrative with the high commissions and residuals. Single deals can be worth six figures to the salesperson but it's not easy to get to the point where you're talking to clients about that sort of undertaking. Especially for a field as esoteric as tech, one way you can differentiate yourself from the boneheads is to really understand the product and how it could benefit your clients.

[Aquila]

If you're going to become an attorney, you better be able to sell yourself. It's one of those intangible things that no amount of law school can teach you though. You can get A's from start to finish but if you can't sign the client sitting in front of you, then you're not a lot better than a cigar-store indian.

Can you sell a client on your firm? Can you sell a jury on your argument? An appellate court? When you're out and about and just happen to hear someone talking about a matter you might be able to help them with, can you tactfully approach them and eventually land them (provided they actually need a lawyer)?

Of course not all attorney jobs require the above skills. But make no mistake about it, if you can't communicate to the person sitting across from you that you see their cause and themselves the same way they do, then find a job in the legal profession where your interaction with others is minimal. Or, if you get assigned to a case where one lawyer has just quit the firm and now you're picking where he/she left off with a client, can you make that client comfortable? Can you maintain their trust in the firm? If not then either right or wrong, that person may file a malpractice suit. The least negative thing that's going to happen is that they'll badmouth you and the firm to people they know, thereby cutting off any future business from that person and the people he/she knows.

And selling isn't, as the OP so crassly put it, "Selling people shit they don't need." If that's your attitude then get a gig at a crappy used car lot where people will expect to deal with a slimy salesman. It isn't about fooling some sucker, it's about showing them why your product is better in some way that's important to them; or why your argument is better. Further, people aren't that stupid. I guarantee if you're out to screw them, the vast, vast majority will see through that. And the leftovers are people one should be ashamed to take advantage of.

You think that because you're a waiter you're a good salesman? How tough is it to sell to somebody who came into the place on their own, is sitting in your section, and has no choice but to place an order through you? Here's a hint: that isn't sales. Unless of course, "Would you like dessert?" is considered sales. But it isn't.

When you have to compete with who knows how many other highly motivated people--not people who are motivated to get a good grade, but to put food on their family's table--then you'll understand what real sales are. And it's very personal. Often what a sale comes down to is who they like better--you or the other guy. Sometimes they like the other guy bette--and that hurts. This goes even more for business to business sales where the establishment of a relationship is so crucial, but it also applies to the legal field as well.

Good post. One of my best friends is in (tech-related) sales and does very well for himself, but he vastly outperforms everyone else around him. Over 90% of people struggle and end up quitting or hopping around between companies since it's an area really based on relationships and the trust you can build with clients. He has bank CTOs and other high-level execs calling him up when they need something - he works hard but his employer gives him a lot of flexibility since they realize the revenue he pulls in. Stay away from the shady consumer products and try to offer a high-value product (for example, data storage or IT services to companies) that you believe in and that could be lucrative with the high commissions and residuals. Single deals can be worth six figures to the salesperson but it's not easy to get to the point where you're talking to clients about that sort of undertaking. Especially for a field as esoteric as tech, one way you can differentiate yourself from the boneheads is to really understand the product and how it could benefit your clients.

No tech experience

[ihenry]

I too will never be able to subsist myself through sales commissions, but I also know people who made incredible money.

It ridiculously varies from person to person. You know yourself best.