Questions about law school entry, undergraduate degrees, etc Forum

[melissamj1]

I am currently a senior student obtaining my bachelor’s degree in Criminal Justice. I am contemplating pursing a Master's Degree in CJ. Ultimately, I would like to get into law school and become a criminal defense lawyer. My reasons for wanting to be in the field vary, but the most important reason is because I see big flaws within our justice system concerning the sentencing and rehabilitation of offenders.

In the beginning I want to be a parole/probations officer. The reason I wanted to pursue a JD over a PO is because I felt that I would be able to have a bigger impact. With that said, a PO position isn't entirely out of the question.

About a month ago I read something that made me very scared concerning law school. All of the things I read were so incredibly discouraging. I'm a realist, and while I'd love to be able to work for free, that simply isn't an option particularly in this day and age. So, it is important to make money in order to be able to function in this world.

One of the things I read was that if you believe you're smart, you will be proven wrong. While I don't believe I'm the smartest person on the planet, I do believe that I am incredibly dedicated. I will work hard for grades, but in the end grades mean nothing if you don't have a passion for the field you're studying. With that said, I do have straight A's and have had since I started college. I pay attention, I study. It doesn't mean I'm brilliant, it means I'm knowledgeable.

The second thing I read, which I've seen more than once, is that with a CJ degree whether it be a Bachelors or Masters, is virtually useless. The article also noted that my chances of getting into law school with my degree in CJ is slim to none. I find that many people (on the internet) scoff at the thought of a person with a CJ degree. I don't expect to get into a top law school, but it doesn't mean I won't try.

As I said I am realistic and do not envision making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year being a lawyer. I expect to make a meager wage in the beginning and maybe when I've perfected myself 10-20 years down the road, THEN will I MAYBE make a hundred thou a year. And even if I don't, I am okay with that.

So my questions are: Should I be afraid? Should I cower? Should I admit defeat now and just try something else? Is my degree worthless?

I am incredibly worried that I wasted my time, BUT I love the law and am not sorry that I pursued a CJ degree. I just don't know what to do with it. The reason I ask these questions on this forum is because I figured many of you would have an insight to what it takes to be successful in the field and to get into law school.

Any advice or constructive criticism is most welcome.

[earthabides]

Law schools don't care what you got your degree in.

[pancakes3]

1) Law school IS tough and you can't just grind your way to good grades. Maybe the median, but not to the top.
2) All that matters for admission is GPA and LSAT. It doesn't matter if you majored in criminal justice or astrophysics. A science degree would ONLY matter if you want to do patent law, but that's not what you're trying to practice.
3) Your "all A's" (4.0?) in UG is a godsend. Now you have to put in all your efforts into the LSAT.
4) The only thing that matters as to WHERE you go is employment numbers. There's a bit of leeway since you're not geared towards working at a firm but not much.
5) Even if you do want to do PI, you need to lose a bit of the selfless Jesus complex as to WHY you want to go to law school.

[patogordo]

how does one "love the law" exactly

[rinkrat19]

For whatever reason, there is a strong correlation between CJ degrees and low LSAT scores. I don't think CJ makes people stupid, but apparently a lot of stupid people major in CJ. (Before you take offense, note that this is not saying that all CJ majors are stupid.)

GPA+LSAT is literally 90% of what determines which law school you can get into and how much you'll pay for it. There are at least twice as many law schools in this country as there should be, and that results in a LOT of people failing to get jobs as lawyers. Unemployment, unsurprisingly, is concentrated in the lower ranks of law schools, so while 98% of Yale grads do fine-to-great, there are bottom-feeder schools where literally 5-10% of the students get decent jobs. These schools are a terrible choice for 99.999999% of people and should be burned to the ground. (Cooley, Ave Maria, Whittier, NYLS, St. Thomas, Barry, Florida Coastal, Regent, Touro, Thomas Jefferson, USF, just to name a few.)

So if you want to go to law school, study like hell for the LSAT. If you get a score that would allow you to get into a GOOD law school (T14 or a strong regional in a place you want to work) and better yet, get a scholarship, then think about law school. If you get to that point, your major won't matter a bit.

[KMart]

You sound like you know what you're up against and you're ok with that. That's a big start. Kill the LSAT and you'll have your choice of law schools with good $$$$. That being said, saying you can't get into a top law school isn't predictable now without that piece of information.

Study like hell and do very well on the LSAT.

[gnomgnomuch]

you have a 4.0?

Go get a 170+ lsat and enjoy a full ride at a lower t-13.

You could have majored in basket weaving for all they care.

[melissamj1]

Law schools don't care what you got your degree in.

Thank you, that's very reassuring.

[melissamj1]

1) Law school IS tough and you can't just grind your way to good grades. Maybe the median, but not to the top.
2) All that matters for admission is GPA and LSAT. It doesn't matter if you majored in criminal justice or astrophysics. A science degree would ONLY matter if you want to do patent law, but that's not what you're trying to practice.
3) Your "all A's" (4.0?) in UG is a godsend. Now you have to put in all your efforts into the LSAT.
4) The only thing that matters as to WHERE you go is employment numbers. There's a bit of leeway since you're not geared towards working at a firm but not much.
5) Even if you do want to do PI, you need to lose a bit of the selfless Jesus complex as to WHY you want to go to law school.

Yes, I have a 4.0 as of right now. I still have 2 semesters to go though. I don't anticipate losing my 4.0, but that's not to say it couldn't happen.

It's funny you mention the selfless Jesus complex. In the article I was referring to in my OP it said the same thing.

Thank you for your advice, I dearly appreciate it.

[melissamj1]

For whatever reason, there is a strong correlation between CJ degrees and low LSAT scores. I don't think CJ makes people stupid, but apparently a lot of stupid people major in CJ. (Before you take offense, note that this is not saying that all CJ majors are stupid.)

GPA+LSAT is literally 90% of what determines which law school you can get into and how much you'll pay for it. There are at least twice as many law schools in this country as there should be, and that results in a LOT of people failing to get jobs as lawyers. Unemployment, unsurprisingly, is concentrated in the lower ranks of law schools, so while 98% of Yale grads do fine-to-great, there are bottom-feeder schools where literally 5-10% of the students get decent jobs. These schools are a terrible choice for 99.999999% of people and should be burned to the ground. (Cooley, Ave Maria, Whittier, NYLS, St. Thomas, Barry, Florida Coastal, Regent, Touro, Thomas Jefferson, USF, just to name a few.)

So if you want to go to law school, study like hell for the LSAT. If you get a score that would allow you to get into a GOOD law school (T14 or a strong regional in a place you want to work) and better yet, get a scholarship, then think about law school. If you get to that point, your major won't matter a bit.

No offense taken. I don't plan on attending any of the schools you listed. I actually was aiming for LSU because I live in Louisiana. However, I may be in Utah by the time I actually start applying so Brigham Young isn't out of the question (if I can get in). It's not that I believe I'm not intelligent. I do not know if it's a confidence issue or not, but I tend to disbelieve anyone that remarks on how intelligent I am. I don't know how to explain it really; I'll try though. I speak 3 languages, but I don't feel that I know how to speak them because I'm smart. I can speak them because I learned how to do so. I do not really believe that because a person can learn something it makes them smart. Does that make sense? I do not know what exactly would define a highly intelligent person.

This is probably going to sound stupid, but when I learn something new and I'm trying to recall what I learned, everything just plays backwards in my mind. Sort of like a movie in my head. Ha-ha that probably sounds psychotic.

[melissamj1]

you have a 4.0?

Go get a 170+ lsat and enjoy a full ride at a lower t-13.

You could have majored in basket weaving for all they care.

LOL!

As I noted to pancakes3, I do have a 4.0. I still have 2 semesters to go, so anything could happen between now and then. I don't foresee losing my 4.0 though.

From what most of you say the lsat is the biggest hurdle, so I will start studying for it. I've taken some of the sample lsat's and did pretty well. But those were samples, so I'm not quite sure how close they were to the actual lsat's.

[rinkrat19]

you have a 4.0?

Go get a 170+ lsat and enjoy a full ride at a lower t-13.

You could have majored in basket weaving for all they care.

LOL!

As I noted to pancakes3, I do have a 4.0. I still have 2 semesters to go, so anything could happen between now and then. I don't foresee losing my 4.0 though.

From what most of you say the lsat is the biggest hurdle, so I will start studying for it. I've taken some of the sample lsat's and did pretty well. But those were samples, so I'm not quite sure how close they were to the actual lsat's.

If they are official practice tests, they literally ARE past actual LSATs administered in prior years.
Are you taking them under the appropriate time constraints? A test score taken with unlimited time is fairly worthless as a predictor.

There is a whole section of this forum dedicated to studying for the LSAT. With a 4.0, anything less than a 170 is a waste of GPA. It is better to take 2 years to study than take it before you've absolutely maxed out your potential.

[melissamj1]

If they are official practice tests, they literally ARE past actual LSATs administered in prior years.
Are you taking them under the appropriate time constraints? A test score taken with unlimited time is fairly worthless as a predictor.

There is a whole section of this forum dedicated to studying for the LSAT. With a 4.0, anything less than a 170 is a waste of GPA. It is better to take 2 years to study than take it before you've absolutely maxed out your potential.

Yes, they were timed. I believe it was something around 35 minutes per section.

So, if you were in my shoes would you go on and get your master's and utilize that extra year (or so) studying for your LSAT as well?

[rinkrat19]

If they are official practice tests, they literally ARE past actual LSATs administered in prior years.
Are you taking them under the appropriate time constraints? A test score taken with unlimited time is fairly worthless as a predictor.

There is a whole section of this forum dedicated to studying for the LSAT. With a 4.0, anything less than a 170 is a waste of GPA. It is better to take 2 years to study than take it before you've absolutely maxed out your potential.

Yes, they were timed. I believe it was something around 35 minutes per section.

So, if you were in my shoes would you go on and get your master's and utilize that extra year (or so) studying for your LSAT as well?

The masters degree would have close to zero value for law school, and I assume it's not free. Is the masters useful for some other career track you are considering?

A more practical plan might be to get a job and spend a year working and studying for the LSAT.

[melissamj1]

The masters degree would have close to zero value for law school, and I assume it's not free. Is the masters useful for some other career track you are considering?

A more practical plan might be to get a job and spend a year working and studying for the LSAT.

No, it's not free. I wish lol. It would be useful for teaching, but that's about it for me I'm afraid. I've been told it helps for those who want to go into police investigations, but I do not want to be a police officer. Not that it's not a good field. It's just not something I would want to do.

Once I graduate with my bachelors I can get a job as a Parole/Probation Officer. Other than that and police work I believe I'd be limited. But spending a year working versus paying needlessly for a degree that wouldn't be beneficial for law school sounds more appealing.

[pancakes3]

You're right to worry about law school but you're worrying for all the wrong reasons. What you should be worried about is if you really want to be a lawyer and only a lawyer for the rest of your life.

Every year law schools graduate twice as many students as there are jobs. With a 4.0 and a good LSAT score you'll be able to find A job but what if you don't find a PI job? Will you be ok working at a big firm? Medium sized firm? Starting your own firm? Will you be ok with working for a government agency? As a clerk? PI jobs are far and few in between. There aren't as many openings and the people who get them stick around for a long time.

Even if you do make it into PI, will you be ok with not "making an impact" ? People apply to law school with such grand visions of changing the system and molding it to what they think a utopian legal system is. That's not what lawyers do. You're a cog in the system. If you go in expecting to reshape the system and get relegated as a cog, will you be ok with that, or will you be suicidally disillusioned?

A masters degree is a waste of time given your background, unless you're thinking of something like social work? I'd suggest you work a year as a paralegal and see what a lawyer's day entails. If you don't like what you see, you could then be a career paralegal, or go be a CO, PO, or whatever CJ-related job you were considering. You'd be in a bad spot if you spent 3 years and 50-100k in COL loans only to find out you can't/won't be a lawyer and try to transition down to being a parole officer - which they probably won't hire you for since you're overqualified.

[McAvoy]

how does one "love the law" exactly

[melissamj1]

You're right to worry about law school but you're worrying for all the wrong reasons. What you should be worried about is if you really want to be a lawyer and only a lawyer for the rest of your life.

Every year law schools graduate twice as many students as there are jobs. With a 4.0 and a good LSAT score you'll be able to find A job but what if you don't find a PI job? Will you be ok working at a big firm? Medium sized firm? Starting your own firm? Will you be ok with working for a government agency? As a clerk? PI jobs are far and few in between. There aren't as many openings and the people who get them stick around for a long time.

Even if you do make it into PI, will you be ok with not "making an impact" ? People apply to law school with such grand visions of changing the system and molding it to what they think a utopian legal system is. That's not what lawyers do. You're a cog in the system. If you go in expecting to reshape the system and get relegated as a cog, will you be ok with that, or will you be suicidally disillusioned?

A masters degree is a waste of time given your background, unless you're thinking of something like social work? I'd suggest you work a year as a paralegal and see what a lawyer's day entails. If you don't like what you see, you could then be a career paralegal, or go be a CO, PO, or whatever CJ-related job you were considering. You'd be in a bad spot if you spent 3 years and 50-100k in COL loans only to find out you can't/won't be a lawyer and try to transition down to being a parole officer - which they probably won't hire you for since you're overqualified.

Ideally I'd like to have my own firm, however I am definitely not opposed to working within a large or small firm. I honestly wouldn't oppose any of those options. My uncle is a lawyer and he had his own firm for about 15 years before he joined a larger more prominent law firm. He liked both of them but prefers to be in the larger firm.

I definitely would not be okay with not making an impact. But no matter the position of the lawyer, I feel they do have an impact. I do not have any preconceived notions of a perfect system. However, I don't believe that assisting in the change of laws is an impossible task. I expect to lose and win.

I did volunteer in a lawyers office twice. The first time was for 2 years, the second time was for a year. I was in high school at the time though. I realize that I was not paralegal, but I did learn a great deal. I had a blast doing it. I certainly don't want to be in the position where I take steps back and have a ton in student loans to pay back. As for the paralegal positions, don't you need a certificate of some sort to do that? I'm not sure if a CJ degree would be an acceptable replacement for a paralegal certificate or associates degree.

[victory]

No offense taken. I don't plan on attending any of the schools you listed. I actually was aiming for LSU because I live in Louisiana. However, I may be in Utah by the time I actually start applying so Brigham Young isn't out of the question (if I can get in). It's not that I believe I'm not intelligent. I do not know if it's a confidence issue or not, but I tend to disbelieve anyone that remarks on how intelligent I am. I don't know how to explain it really; I'll try though. I speak 3 languages, but I don't feel that I know how to speak them because I'm smart. I can speak them because I learned how to do so. I do not really believe that because a person can learn something it makes them smart. Does that make sense? I do not know what exactly would define a highly intelligent person.

No one's gonna hit the bolded?

LSU - http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/lsu/2013/ (coin flip chance of getting a job)
BYU - http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/byu/2013/ (coin flip chance of getting a job)

Don't waste that GPA. PI jobs are few and far between. As you probably know, the legal market's not doing too well right now. Study for the LSAT and try to get money at a school that'll give you a better chance to use your JD.

[melissamj1]

how does one "love the law" exactly

The law epitomizes fairness, equality, and accountability. I have a great appreciation and a great deal of respect for our Constitution. I love the law because it ensures that I don't live in an anarchic state.

[melissamj1]

No one's gonna hit the bolded?

LSU - http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/lsu/2013/ (coin flip chance of getting a job)
BYU - http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/byu/2013/ (coin flip chance of getting a job)

Don't waste that GPA. PI jobs are few and far between. As you probably know, the legal market's not doing too well right now. Study for the LSAT and try to get money at a school that'll give you a better chance to use your JD.

Wow, those are some pretty abysmal stats.

[McAvoy]

how does one "love the law" exactly

The law epitomizes fairness, equality, and accountability. I have a great appreciation and a great deal of respect for our Constitution. I love the law because it ensures that I don't live in an anarchic state.

I, too, love the constitution; it is a living document, after all

[patogordo]

how does one "love the law" exactly

The law epitomizes fairness, equality, and accountability. I have a great appreciation and a great deal of respect for our Constitution. I love the law because it ensures that I don't live in an anarchic state.

man i hate all of those things

[CFC1524]

how does one "love the law" exactly

The law epitomizes fairness, equality, and accountability.

...Not so sure about this one

But yea, great advice in this thread about law school in general.

[gnomgnomuch]

how does one "love the law" exactly

The law epitomizes fairness, equality, and accountability. I have a great appreciation and a great deal of respect for our Constitution. I love the law because it ensures that I don't live in an anarchic state.

If you've read any news over the past ever, you'd know that's not actually the case. You can have respect for the Constitution, but it doesn't take into account a multitude of new tech, and a narrow interpretation of it makes it anything other than fair.

There's also that small thing called the 3/5ths compromise...in regards to fairness and equality.

Also, not that you have to justify to us why you want to go to law school, if that's your actual reason then you should think some more about it. If you want to do PI and you end up meeting people whom you can't because of the law... would you be able to handle that? (Assuming you get PI.)

Otherwise, you'd potentially be getting big-law, where you'd do soul crushing work - for most of us at least - for long hours. The pay would be great, but chances are you'd have some debt, and you'd be helping corporations rather than people.

There are trade-offs everywhere, you don't particularly sound set on law, so do some serious research, maybe an internship, into the profession before you jump in.