Big Issue Forum

[Anonymousme]

I made this profile because I can't for the life of me figure out how to post anonymously the normal way and this is a pretty tough question so I need discretion.

I'm going to be reapplying in the next cycle because I applied late and this cycle didn't really turn out so hot even though I have really good #s but I have an issue that's been haunting me since I sent out my apps this last cycle: I didn't disclose a sealed bit of jail time that happened when I was a teenager in the last cycle and I'm not sure how to proceed.

I grew up gay and poor and my parents were seriously abusive (physically and emotionally). At one point during High School, my brother - who I had come out to first long before anyone else and who instead of being understanding taunted me with it - was quietly calling me a 'fa***t' under his breath in the car and I punched him in the shoulder. He hit me back like ten times but that didn't matter much to my parents who decided they wanted to send me a message and then proceeded to drive me to the police station and have me jailed for the five days of MLK weekend (half was spent in solitary confinement). I saw no lawyers, no judges and I was told that when I turned 18 none of it would ever exist by the cop who let me out. I did provide a testimony that stated my guilt when I was handcuffed to a table after my parents had put me in (it was like 'I deserve everything that happens to me. I'm a monster etc' - I was really unhinged as it was going down).

What should I do? I probably should have brought it up in the first run but for one, I didn't want it to ruin everything and secondly, it's all really hard to talk about because my childhood was BAD (if I bring it up, I've got to bring ALL of it up and that will prob [definitely] be off-putting to the adcomms) and I wasn't even sure if it qualified. I'm normally all about full disclosure but I've tried so hard to put my past behind me and this is hard stuff to bring up (there's maybe 5 people in the world outside of my family who knows that any of this happened). I don't really like the idea that I will need to keep this a secret for the rest of my life even if I sort of do that now.

Also, if I do disclose in the next cycle, what should I do about the schools that I didn't disclose to last cycle (they're all my top choices)?

[hichvichwoh]

I made this profile because I can't for the life of me figure out how to post anonymously the normal way and this is a pretty tough question so I need discretion.

I'm going to be reapplying in the next cycle because I applied late and this cycle didn't really turn out so hot even though I have really good #s but I have an issue that's been haunting me since I sent out my apps this last cycle: I didn't disclose a sealed bit of jail time that happened when I was a teenager in the last cycle and I'm not sure how to proceed.

I grew up gay and poor and my parents were seriously abusive (physically and emotionally). At one point during High School, my brother - who I had come out to first long before anyone else and who instead of being understanding taunted me with it - was quietly calling me a 'fa***t' under his breath in the car and I punched him in the shoulder. He hit me back like ten times but that didn't matter much to my parents who decided they wanted to send me a message and then proceeded to drive me to the police station and have me jailed for the five days of MLK weekend (half was spent in solitary confinement). I saw no lawyers, no judges and I was told that when I turned 18 none of it would ever exist by the cop who let me out. I did provide a testimony that stated my guilt when I was handcuffed to a table after my parents had put me in (it was like 'I deserve everything that happens to me. I'm a monster etc' - I was really unhinged as it was going down).

What should I do? I probably should have brought it up in the first run but for one, I didn't want it to ruin everything and secondly, it's all really hard to talk about because my childhood was BAD (if I bring it up, I've got to bring ALL of it up and that will prob [definitely] be off-putting to the adcomms) and I wasn't even sure if it qualified. I'm normally all about full disclosure but I've tried so hard to put my past behind me and this is hard stuff to bring up (there's maybe 5 people in the world outside of my family who knows that any of this happened). I don't really like the idea that I will need to keep this a secret for the rest of my life even if I sort of do that now.

Also, if I do disclose in the next cycle, what should I do about the schools that I didn't disclose to last cycle (they're all my top choices)?

Wait, so, what part of this was actually official police business and what part of it was you being abused by your parents with the help of a police officer? Because if it's all abuse and it was kept off the books to protect the cop, then you don't have to disclose anything if it didn't officially "happen"

[Anonymousme]

I made this profile because I can't for the life of me figure out how to post anonymously the normal way and this is a pretty tough question so I need discretion.

I'm going to be reapplying in the next cycle because I applied late and this cycle didn't really turn out so hot even though I have really good #s but I have an issue that's been haunting me since I sent out my apps this last cycle: I didn't disclose a sealed bit of jail time that happened when I was a teenager in the last cycle and I'm not sure how to proceed.

I grew up gay and poor and my parents were seriously abusive (physically and emotionally). At one point during High School, my brother - who I had come out to first long before anyone else and who instead of being understanding taunted me with it - was quietly calling me a 'fa***t' under his breath in the car and I punched him in the shoulder. He hit me back like ten times but that didn't matter much to my parents who decided they wanted to send me a message and then proceeded to drive me to the police station and have me jailed for the five days of MLK weekend (half was spent in solitary confinement). I saw no lawyers, no judges and I was told that when I turned 18 none of it would ever exist by the cop who let me out. I did provide a testimony that stated my guilt when I was handcuffed to a table after my parents had put me in (it was like 'I deserve everything that happens to me. I'm a monster etc' - I was really unhinged as it was going down).

What should I do? I probably should have brought it up in the first run but for one, I didn't want it to ruin everything and secondly, it's all really hard to talk about because my childhood was BAD (if I bring it up, I've got to bring ALL of it up and that will prob [definitely] be off-putting to the adcomms) and I wasn't even sure if it qualified. I'm normally all about full disclosure but I've tried so hard to put my past behind me and this is hard stuff to bring up (there's maybe 5 people in the world outside of my family who knows that any of this happened). I don't really like the idea that I will need to keep this a secret for the rest of my life even if I sort of do that now.

Also, if I do disclose in the next cycle, what should I do about the schools that I didn't disclose to last cycle (they're all my top choices)?

Wait, so, what part of this was actually official police business and what part of it was you being abused by your parents with the help of a police officer? Because if it's all abuse and it was kept off the books to protect the cop, then you don't have to disclose anything if it didn't officially "happen"

I have no idea. Really, I've never seen any documents from it and I don't even know what the ruling would be. They (the cops) were saying at first that I'd be spending a month in jail for 'domestic violence' but that didn't happen. There was enough of a record that I was told that if anything did happen again before I turned 18 that this would become something. But that could have been bluster too.

[hichvichwoh]

I made this profile because I can't for the life of me figure out how to post anonymously the normal way and this is a pretty tough question so I need discretion.

I'm going to be reapplying in the next cycle because I applied late and this cycle didn't really turn out so hot even though I have really good #s but I have an issue that's been haunting me since I sent out my apps this last cycle: I didn't disclose a sealed bit of jail time that happened when I was a teenager in the last cycle and I'm not sure how to proceed.

I grew up gay and poor and my parents were seriously abusive (physically and emotionally). At one point during High School, my brother - who I had come out to first long before anyone else and who instead of being understanding taunted me with it - was quietly calling me a 'fa***t' under his breath in the car and I punched him in the shoulder. He hit me back like ten times but that didn't matter much to my parents who decided they wanted to send me a message and then proceeded to drive me to the police station and have me jailed for the five days of MLK weekend (half was spent in solitary confinement). I saw no lawyers, no judges and I was told that when I turned 18 none of it would ever exist by the cop who let me out. I did provide a testimony that stated my guilt when I was handcuffed to a table after my parents had put me in (it was like 'I deserve everything that happens to me. I'm a monster etc' - I was really unhinged as it was going down).

What should I do? I probably should have brought it up in the first run but for one, I didn't want it to ruin everything and secondly, it's all really hard to talk about because my childhood was BAD (if I bring it up, I've got to bring ALL of it up and that will prob [definitely] be off-putting to the adcomms) and I wasn't even sure if it qualified. I'm normally all about full disclosure but I've tried so hard to put my past behind me and this is hard stuff to bring up (there's maybe 5 people in the world outside of my family who knows that any of this happened). I don't really like the idea that I will need to keep this a secret for the rest of my life even if I sort of do that now.

Also, if I do disclose in the next cycle, what should I do about the schools that I didn't disclose to last cycle (they're all my top choices)?

Wait, so, what part of this was actually official police business and what part of it was you being abused by your parents with the help of a police officer? Because if it's all abuse and it was kept off the books to protect the cop, then you don't have to disclose anything if it didn't officially "happen"

I have no idea. Really, I've never seen any documents from it and I don't even know what the ruling would be. They (the cops) were saying at first that I'd be spending a month in jail for 'domestic violence' but that didn't happen. There was enough of a record that I was told that if anything did happen again before I turned 18 that this would become something. But that could have been bluster too.

if they literally made you sign a piece of paper saying "I am an abomination and an affront to god" or something like that I'd be pretty sure that none of it was real, and you wouldn't have to report it.

[rinkrat19]

Check with the police records department and see if there's any mention of it. And you need to disclose, with perhaps a bit of explanation that you were afraid to disclose due to your parents' abuse or something. Even though this cycle is almost over, you should probably contact all your applied schools and disclose it.

Because even if there is a record of it, it wouldn't have hurt you a bit in admissions. But not disclosing CAN hurt you, and even after you get into a school, your bar application character+fitness check might not come up clean because your first cycle of apps didn't disclose it.

[Ded Precedent]

Contact the schools and ask to amend that part of your application. Also, if this took place as a juvenile, I don't really remember schools asking that you disclose it (or maybe some do, some don't). But if a school requires you to disclose any juvenile arrests, just amend your app and don't make the same mistake next application cycle.

Good luck.

[sd5289]

I'm not sure how helpful I can be (fellow gay here, but my mother was nothing short of outstanding with regards to my gayness).

I'm don't know if you know the answer to this, but were you actually convicted of anything (convictions include pleading guilty)? You're saying that you "testified" at a hearing of some sort, but I can't tell if you were actually pleading guilty to a crime. Obviously I don't know what State you're in, but here in NY, we have something known as an "ACD" (adjournment in contemplation of dismissal). It requires the defendant to stay out of trouble for a certain amount of time, and if they do that successfully, the charge just goes away. The arrest record still exists, but the criminal charge is gone. Juvenile records (which sounds like it applies to you because it doesn't appear like they treated you as an adult defendant) are also sealed once the person turns 18.

Do you have an info on this? If you do, I may be able to tell you more (disclosure: worked in criminal justice for 6 yrs prior to law school, and did the same during my 1L summer).

Also, keep in mind that arrest records and prosecution records are different. Even if the charge was dismissed or sealed, that arrest record might exist. The police might be able to tell you if they have that arrest on file (I emphasize "might" since they can sometimes be ridiculously obstructive when you're trying to find out if an arrest record exists).

ETA: based off the two comments above me, I agree that the schools are not going to give a fuck about your 5 days once they hear the story behind it. What's more concerning is when you go for your character and fitness review for the bar exam because they check your information against your law school application to the school you go to.

[beepboopbeep]

Contact the schools and ask to amend that part of your application. Also, if this took place as a juvenile, I don't really remember schools asking that you disclose it (or maybe some do, some don't). But if a school requires you to disclose any juvenile arrests, just amend your app and don't make the same mistake next application cycle.

Good luck.

They don't always require it but it is always a good idea to disclose, if for no other reason than heading off C&F issues down the line. 99% chance the law school won't care w/r/t admissions, but they need to be able to say yes when the bar asks if you told them about it.

Obviously I don't know what State you're in, but here in NY, we have something known as an "ACD" (adjournment in contemplation of dismissal). It requires the defendant to stay out of trouble for a certain amount of time, and if they do that successfully, the charge just goes away. The arrest record still exists, but the criminal charge is gone. Juvenile records (which sounds like it applies to you because it doesn't appear like they treated you as an adult defendant) are also sealed once the person turns 18.

You would be surprised at how many records that are supposedly expunged end up staying on the record or being otherwise discoverable. I have personal experience with this. Agreed with this fully, though:

ETA: based off the two comments above me, I agree that the schools are not going to give a fuck about your 5 days once they hear the story behind it. What's more concerning is when you go for your character and fitness review for the bar exam because they check your information against your law school application to the school you go to.

[2807]

You are missing some very important facts.
Why ?

First of all, you can be arrested, held, and released, and nothing more will ever come of it.
In CA (and most states, if not all).. you have to be brought before a judge and arraigned (or formally told of your charges) within 48 hours.

HOWEVER.... the catch is... that is 48 hours when the court is open....
WEEKENDS DO NOT COUNT.
HOLIDAYS DO NOT COUNT.

The fact that this happened for 5 days "over MLK weekend" tells me that you were arrested, booked, and then released days later.
Totally legit, but unfortunate for you.

No charges. No Nothing. No problems.

Did this happen?
What makes you say this is "sealed" ?
WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?
Is there more to this?
Did you go to court and have this "sealed" ?
What exactly was sealed?

Also, depending on how you framed the question, and what you remember, the fact that someone confirmed that this would "not exist when you are 18"... is possibly true. The issue would be what you were referring to, or what you actually said.

There is likely a record of the arrest and release. But that is it.

So, on the applications, if asked "have you ever been arrested" you will need to say yes...
Then explain it was a family dispute with a brother, as a juve, you spent a weekend in jail at the behest of your parents who were trying to teach you a lesson. Then say, "I learned my lesson"

Own it and move on. Explain that you learned a lesson.

[Anonymousme]

Contact the schools and ask to amend that part of your application. Also, if this took place as a juvenile, I don't really remember schools asking that you disclose it (or maybe some do, some don't). But if a school requires you to disclose any juvenile arrests, just amend your app and don't make the same mistake next application cycle.

Good luck.

In what order should I do this? Should I amend then officially withdraw? I'm not sure which schools did semi-require it and which didn't but I'm pretty sure it was a mix (like I'd fill out the section thinking 'I think I'm supposed to mention that here' and then others I was like 'I really don't think they want to know that').

[Anonymousme]

Check with the police records department and see if there's any mention of it. And you need to disclose, with perhaps a bit of explanation that you were afraid to disclose due to your parents' abuse or something. Even though this cycle is almost over, you should probably contact all your applied schools and disclose it.

Because even if there is a record of it, it wouldn't have hurt you a bit in admissions. But not disclosing CAN hurt you, and even after you get into a school, your bar application character+fitness check might not come up clean because your first cycle of apps didn't disclose it.

Ok so would it be acceptable to withdraw and disclose simultaneously?

[Ded Precedent]

Contact the schools and ask to amend that part of your application. Also, if this took place as a juvenile, I don't really remember schools asking that you disclose it (or maybe some do, some don't). But if a school requires you to disclose any juvenile arrests, just amend your app and don't make the same mistake next application cycle.

Good luck.

In what order should I do this? Should I amend then officially withdraw? I'm not sure which schools did semi-require it and which didn't but I'm pretty sure it was a mix (like I'd fill out the section thinking 'I think I'm supposed to mention that here' and then others I was like 'I really don't think they want to know that').

Amend and then withdraw would probably be the best course of action.

[Anonymousme]

Since I really don't know much about it (the situation) outside of the fact that it was further trauma from my parents, I'm going to call the police department either Monday or Tuesday and try to find if I can find any record whatsoever concerning it. After I find that out, I will write to each of the schools I applied to (rejected, WLd and accepted) to amend my application for this year. I will either withdraw from all WL and acceptances then or at the end of the month (I'm on the fence as to whether to wait till at least the end of the month).

Does this sound like a solid plan?

[Anonymousme]

Another note, since now I've got to get real personal with all of the adcoms, should I maybe address this more overtly in my app next cycle? Like I'm a total adversity candidate or something...idk.

It's such an awful variable added to my app.

[Anonymousme]

Contact the schools and ask to amend that part of your application. Also, if this took place as a juvenile, I don't really remember schools asking that you disclose it (or maybe some do, some don't). But if a school requires you to disclose any juvenile arrests, just amend your app and don't make the same mistake next application cycle.

Good luck.

In what order should I do this? Should I amend then officially withdraw? I'm not sure which schools did semi-require it and which didn't but I'm pretty sure it was a mix (like I'd fill out the section thinking 'I think I'm supposed to mention that here' and then others I was like 'I really don't think they want to know that').

Amend and then withdraw would probably be the best course of action.

Amend all or just go through one by one to schools that specifically require it? Also amend rejections too?

[Anonymousme]

Btw, thank you to everyone who has put in the time and thought into responding to this. I've been toying with writing this out for a few months but it's just that hard to discuss and all of your aid is really awesome.

[sd5289]

Another note, since now I've got to get real personal with all of the adcoms, should I maybe address this more overtly in my app next cycle? Like I'm a total adversity candidate or something...idk.

It's such an awful variable added to my app.

You don't have to reference it as a "diversity" statement if you don't want to, but you'll definitely want to address it fully as some kind of addendum to explain the existence of the arrest.

And 2807 is correct. In NY the time limit is 24 hours, but weekends/holidays/etc don't count so sometimes guys arrested right before the weekend might end up staying "in" through that weekend.

[sd5289]

Also, on the "arrests" vs "juvenile arrests" thought: if the question is the all-inclusive "have you ever been arrested?" I would answer yes to that question. It's possible they don't mean juvenile arrests, but you don't really know that, do you? If the question is "have you ever been arrested after turning 18?" then the answer would be no.

In this area, disclosure and explanation is the better part of valor. Especially on the bar exam application. You get into waaaaaaay more trouble for withholding information that you know (or have reason to know) they're asking for. I know plenty of people who've been arrested and had no trouble with either their LS or bar exam applications.

[Anonymousme]

Also, on the "arrests" vs "juvenile arrests" thought: if the question is the all-inclusive "have you ever been arrested?" I would answer yes to that question. It's possible they don't mean juvenile arrests, but you don't really know that, do you? If the question is "have you ever been arrested after turning 18?" then the answer would be no.

In this area, disclosure and explanation is the better part of valor. Especially on the bar exam application. You get into waaaaaaay more trouble for withholding information that you know (or have reason to know) they're asking for. I know plenty of people who've been arrested and had no trouble with either their LS or bar exam applications.

So really I need to go back and check the wording on each or do you think that just across the board disclosure is the best part (so there's no issues whatsoever with the bar exam). Also what do you specifically think I should do about places I received rejections from (I'm planning to reapply next year to them)?

[sd5289]

Also, on the "arrests" vs "juvenile arrests" thought: if the question is the all-inclusive "have you ever been arrested?" I would answer yes to that question. It's possible they don't mean juvenile arrests, but you don't really know that, do you? If the question is "have you ever been arrested after turning 18?" then the answer would be no.

In this area, disclosure and explanation is the better part of valor. Especially on the bar exam application. You get into waaaaaaay more trouble for withholding information that you know (or have reason to know) they're asking for. I know plenty of people who've been arrested and had no trouble with either their LS or bar exam applications.

So really I need to go back and check the wording on each or do you think that just across the board disclosure is the best part (so there's no issues whatsoever with the bar exam).

I mean, I personally blow by those questions by checking no because I've never been arrested, but I'm almost positive I've never seen a question that limited it to arrests after turning 18. That said, I would check the wording of each one. I'm pretty sure they're going to be the standard "have you ever been arrested?" question and you're just going to have to say yes, but if I'm wrong* that there aren't any questions explicitly stating "after 18," then hey, you don't need to amend that LS application. My point is, you disclose unless the question explicitly excludes you. That principle is true for any of these types of questions that you'll see on LS applications and the application to the bar.

* if I am, please come back and tell us.

[hichvichwoh]

Contact the schools and ask to amend that part of your application. Also, if this took place as a juvenile, I don't really remember schools asking that you disclose it (or maybe some do, some don't). But if a school requires you to disclose any juvenile arrests, just amend your app and don't make the same mistake next application cycle.

Good luck.

In what order should I do this? Should I amend then officially withdraw? I'm not sure which schools did semi-require it and which didn't but I'm pretty sure it was a mix (like I'd fill out the section thinking 'I think I'm supposed to mention that here' and then others I was like 'I really don't think they want to know that').

Amend and then withdraw would probably be the best course of action.

this is just GOD AWFUL advice. Seriously don't listen to this. go ahead and amend, but this is not the kind of thing that any adcomm would EVER ding you over, and it's no reason for you to withdraw an app.

[rinkrat19]

Contact the schools and ask to amend that part of your application. Also, if this took place as a juvenile, I don't really remember schools asking that you disclose it (or maybe some do, some don't). But if a school requires you to disclose any juvenile arrests, just amend your app and don't make the same mistake next application cycle.

Good luck.

In what order should I do this? Should I amend then officially withdraw? I'm not sure which schools did semi-require it and which didn't but I'm pretty sure it was a mix (like I'd fill out the section thinking 'I think I'm supposed to mention that here' and then others I was like 'I really don't think they want to know that').

Amend and then withdraw would probably be the best course of action.

this is just GOD AWFUL advice. Seriously don't listen to this. go ahead and amend, but this is not the kind of thing that any adcomm would EVER ding you over, and it's no reason for you to withdraw an app.

Pretty sure these are the apps that he's going to withdraw anyway, since he's going to reapply next cycle. "Amend and then withdraw" is just the order of steps to take to ensure that this cycle's apps get the relevant information added.

[Ded Precedent]

Contact the schools and ask to amend that part of your application. Also, if this took place as a juvenile, I don't really remember schools asking that you disclose it (or maybe some do, some don't). But if a school requires you to disclose any juvenile arrests, just amend your app and don't make the same mistake next application cycle.

Good luck.

In what order should I do this? Should I amend then officially withdraw? I'm not sure which schools did semi-require it and which didn't but I'm pretty sure it was a mix (like I'd fill out the section thinking 'I think I'm supposed to mention that here' and then others I was like 'I really don't think they want to know that').

Amend and then withdraw would probably be the best course of action.

this is just GOD AWFUL advice. Seriously don't listen to this. go ahead and amend, but this is not the kind of thing that any adcomm would EVER ding you over, and it's no reason for you to withdraw an app.

Read the fucking post you idiot. He's withdrawing his app from all of the schools and re-applying next year.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Another note, since now I've got to get real personal with all of the adcoms, should I maybe address this more overtly in my app next cycle? Like I'm a total adversity candidate or something...idk.

It's such an awful variable added to my app.

I don't think any of this reflects poorly on you at all. I get not wanting to put a crappy childhood on display and wanting to put it behind you, but talking about it certainly isn't going to make you look bad, if that's what you were suggesting.

[hichvichwoh]

this is just GOD AWFUL advice. Seriously don't listen to this. go ahead and amend, but this is not the kind of thing that any adcomm would EVER ding you over, and it's no reason for you to withdraw an app.

Read the fucking post you idiot. He's withdrawing his app from all of the schools and re-applying next year.

Oh ok, I guess I misunderstood the situation. So I'm confused then, if you're going to be re-doing all of your apps, can't you just disclose whatever you need to next year? Disclosing along with your withdrawal seems pretty pointless since it's not like they're going to save your file from this year and merge it into your next app.