Is there something I'm missing? Forum

[boaltlaw]

Help a 0L understand something about Law school.

As a previous lurker on TLS, it's pretty much accepted that anything below the T-14, and to some extent lower T-14, is not worth sticker.
I don't understand this at all.

Isn't a cornell undergrad worth sticker? Is a law degree from cornell worth less than a sociology or political science degree from cornell?

I don't get how that prestigious of a university has placement in 40k shitlaw jobs. Like even in a non-legal sector, is it that hard for someone to find employment with a cornell law degree?

[guano]

Help a 0L understand something about Law school.

As a previous lurker on TLS, it's pretty much accepted that anything below the T-14, and to some extent lower T-14, is not worth sticker.
I don't understand this at all.

Isn't a cornell undergrad worth sticker? Is a law degree from cornell worth less than a sociology or political science degree from cornell?

I don't get how that prestigious of a university has placement in 40k shitlaw jobs. Like even in a non-legal sector, is it that hard for someone to find employment with a cornell law degree?

a degree that costs more than twice as much as your expected annual salary is almost certainly not worth it. I have a friend who got an Ivy League degree and became a beat cop - his annual COA exceeded his annual salary upon graduation. That's definitely not worth it.

Education for education's sake is a flame. If you're gunning for certain high-paying jobs, like finance or doctor, it makes sense to go to the best schools to put in you line for such a career (but you should still balance costs vs opportunity). Otherwise, you should go to the best school you can get into for free or almost free.

No one will ever fault you for going to an M7 if your goal is to become a banker, and no one will ever fault you for going to HYS if you want to be a lawyer. But don't be the person who wracks up $200k in UG debt to become a social worker

[californiauser]

I really doubt many if any people are taking out full loans to attend Cornell undergrad. A lot of the law school game depends on goals and circumstance. Cornell at "sticker" is fine if you have rich parents (plenty people attending schools of this caliber do) or possibly if you're PI committed and Cornell or a similar schools has a decent loan repayment program. I think taking out over 200k for any law school is way, way too much if it's going to be all loans, and you plan on working to pay it all off yourself. That's an ungodly amount of money to repay.

[guano]

I really doubt many if any people are taking out full loans to attend Cornell undergrad.

about half get schollys

[IAFG]

Help a 0L understand something about Law school.

As a previous lurker on TLS, it's pretty much accepted that anything below the T-14, and to some extent lower T-14, is not worth sticker.
I don't understand this at all.

Isn't a cornell undergrad worth sticker? Is a law degree from cornell worth less than a sociology or political science degree from cornell?

I don't get how that prestigious of a university has placement in 40k shitlaw jobs. Like even in a non-legal sector, is it that hard for someone to find employment with a cornell law degree?

You should download Paul Campos' book right now.

[sah]

Yeah we talk about law school a lot because this is a law school forum, but outsized costs for dubious benefits is a problem rampant across all higher ed in the US. A friend of my family's has $120k in UG debt for a BA in communications - she works in a tv station (in field!) but makes like $30k because, you know, it's community access tv, and she's absolutely broke and miserable (and in fact, a lot of it is private and not IBR-eligible).

My cousin has a bfa from NYU and Mfa in musical theatre - followed her dream. Now she's a bartender/beverage director in ny. She's actually happy and likes it, but she will Always struggle under the burden of her six figure debt.

There's more - a journalism degree from columbia is like a million dollars for a dying and low paid career. An mpp from Harvard Kennedy is gonna run you $100k plus in debt with loans for gov jobs wth only mediocre pay. Etc., etc.

We need to lower costs - period- but in the meantime the solution for individuals is simple: Basic Financial Literacy. And also realizing that Certain careers are only for trust fund babies.

[californiauser]

I really doubt many if any people are taking out full loans to attend Cornell undergrad.

about half get schollys

Ok? And I'm sure about half have mom and dad paying their tuition

[star fox]

I really doubt many if any people are taking out full loans to attend Cornell undergrad.

about half get schollys

Ok? And I'm sure about half have mom and dad paying their tuition

Great, so higher education is a privilege for the wealthy and should be seriously re-considered for most middle class folks who have traditionally viewed college as a ticket towards upward mobility.

[guano]

Great, so higher education is a privilege for the wealthy and should be seriously re-considered for most middle class folks who have traditionally viewed college as a ticket towards upward mobility.

IMO one of the biggest structural problems with America is publicly financed private enterprise, like education. Rather than provide federally guaranteed loans for all schools (public or private), the government should instead provide cheap public colleges and let private schools fend for themselves.

[manu6926]

...

[guano]

School choice should only be a matter of net expected benefit.

fixed

[star fox]

OP, remember that going to law school only occurs after already going to UG. It's not an either or between law and sociology. It's paying for a law degree on top of whatever you paid for UG.

[boaltlaw]

OP, remember that going to law school only occurs after already going to UG. It's not an either or between law and sociology. It's paying for a law degree on top of whatever you paid for UG.

That's a good point. I just have a tough time wondering why anyone would resort to shitlaw. Ever. Even as a person without a JD there are plenty of jobs that pay more. Like being a plumber or a teacher.

Like would a cornell graduate really only make 40-50k practicing law?

[A. Nony Mouse]

OP, remember that going to law school only occurs after already going to UG. It's not an either or between law and sociology. It's paying for a law degree on top of whatever you paid for UG.

That's a good point. I just have a tough time wondering why anyone would resort to shitlaw. Ever. Even as a person without a JD there are plenty of jobs that pay more. Like being a plumber or a teacher.

Like would a cornell graduate really only make 40-50k practicing law?

Sure. They go be a PD/DA somewhere with low cost of living (or not even that low a cost of living, I guess). Also, aren't there plenty of places where that's what a starting teacher makes?

[boaltlaw]

OP, remember that going to law school only occurs after already going to UG. It's not an either or between law and sociology. It's paying for a law degree on top of whatever you paid for UG.

That's a good point. I just have a tough time wondering why anyone would resort to shitlaw. Ever. Even as a person without a JD there are plenty of jobs that pay more. Like being a plumber or a teacher.

Like would a cornell graduate really only make 40-50k practicing law?

Sure. They go be a PD/DA somewhere with low cost of living (or not even that low a cost of living, I guess). Also, aren't there plenty of places where that's what a starting teacher makes?

I mean couldn't they do something else? Like no jobs over 60k would hire a cornell law grad?

sorry if i sound stupid

[guano]

I mean couldn't they do something else? Like no jobs over 60k would hire a cornell law grad?

sorry if i sound stupid

The issue is that there aren't enough law jobs to go around for the number of law students that are graduating.

There are roughly 25,000 entry law jobs per year opening up, and roughly 45,000 law students graduating. That means that roughly 20,000 law students won't become lawyers. Now most of those will be from shitty schools, but, some will come from much better schools.

The other factor to consider is that paying $250k for an education that results in a job that only pays $60k is a really bad investment

[boaltlaw]

I mean couldn't they do something else? Like no jobs over 60k would hire a cornell law grad?

sorry if i sound stupid

The issue is that there aren't enough law jobs to go around for the number of law students that are graduating.

There are roughly 25,000 entry law jobs per year opening up, and roughly 45,000 law students graduating. That means that roughly 20,000 law students won't become lawyers. Now most of those will be from shitty schools, but, some will come from much better schools.

The other factor to consider is that paying $250k for an education that results in a job that only pays $60k is a really bad investment

I know that there is a saturated market but what Im trying to say is, is it that hard for a cornell grad find a non-legal position that pays more than 60k?

[A. Nony Mouse]

OP, remember that going to law school only occurs after already going to UG. It's not an either or between law and sociology. It's paying for a law degree on top of whatever you paid for UG.

That's a good point. I just have a tough time wondering why anyone would resort to shitlaw. Ever. Even as a person without a JD there are plenty of jobs that pay more. Like being a plumber or a teacher.

Like would a cornell graduate really only make 40-50k practicing law?

Sure. They go be a PD/DA somewhere with low cost of living (or not even that low a cost of living, I guess). Also, aren't there plenty of places where that's what a starting teacher makes?

I mean couldn't they do something else? Like no jobs over 60k would hire a cornell law grad?

sorry if i sound stupid

Didn't mean to suggest you sounded stupid. My point was that they might want to be a DA/PD, and that's what a lot of those jobs pay. Also, law salaries follow a bi-modal curve - there are high salaries and low salaries but not a lot of salaries in between.

I mean, sure, they could do something else, but a lot of that would depend on the grad and what they personally bring to the table. Having a JD isn't often much help in getting a non-law job - it's usually not required and you have to be able to convince employers why you're not going to leave for a legal job at the first opportunity.

[bk1]

Isn't a cornell undergrad worth sticker?

Huh? Of course it isn't.

[rad lulz]

d

[guano]

I know that there is a saturated market but what Im trying to say is, is it that hard for a cornell grad find a non-legal position that pays more than 60k?

Well, first off, most of those positions get filled by people who have specifically trained for that position. Second off, a JD applying for a non-law-related job is at a serious disadvantage because an employer will think:
1) what's wrong with this person that s/he couldn't find a legal job?
2) this person is going to leave as soon as s/he finds a legal job

If you can convince them that 1 and 2 are not an issue, then they'll think (3) this person doesn't know what s/he wants, and will probably leave when s/he decides to do something else

[Clyde Frog]

I wouldn't pay sticker at any law school, period. Your three years will go by a lot easier if you're not worrying about pay back over 150k when you're done.

[guano]

I wouldn't pay sticker at any law school, period. Your three years will go by a lot easier if you're not worrying about pay back over 150k when you're done.

Brigham Young's sticker rate for LDS members is a good deal

[jbagelboy]

TLS always manages to come out in full philistine force for any conversation about higher education, particularly undergraduate degrees. The mantra should remain, "don't take out loans for college," or at least, keep them under $30K total (what you'll probably make when you get out). Still, no need to rail on the humanities, those who go into public service, or private colleges who provide incredible opportunities for grants (fulbright, watson), academia, finance, and tech industry, and other more unique career trajectories. Sure, getting a classics major at Brown is facially bourgeois given the economic dynamics implied (institutional wealth), but it still has societal value (more than another CPA from UC riverside, IMO), and can lead to a lot of rewarding intellectual and professional experiences. On a purely monetary level, my college, for example, was expensive and produced plenty of "useless" majors, but still ranks at the very top of the Forbes list best financial outcomes for graduates. So it's clearly worth it from an investment standpoint.

Honestly, what you have to understand OP is that the comparison between undergrad and law school simply doesn't hold up financially, pedagogically, or professionally. The vast majority of elite institutions have already instituted or are quickly moving towards 100% "need" serviced, zero-loan financial aid policies - in effect, if you're poor and you get in, you'll get a massive tuition reduction; if you're rich, your parents will pay for it no problem. Law schools don't have this policy in any form: they traditionally have been cash cows to support the undergraduate grants. So this whole "sticker" dilemma & comparison remains painfully flawed.

A certain segment of the middle class is admittedly getting screwed over in this equation - 1) people with a home (large asset) but low salaries, who often won't qualify for much aid, and 2) people with no assets and other debt obligations but just high enough total family income to miss the boat on grants (at most top LAC's/Ivy's $180k+).

So, wealth often ends up highly stratified at elite colleges, and people in 1) or 2) wind up at state schools with reduced tuitions. They feature less prominently at the best medical schools, investment banks, top law firms, elite PhD programs, high-level government service, ect. There's a reason America rates ridiculously high on the Gini index. Social mobility has always been limited in the states.. not sure why this is news for anyone, or a reason to gripe unless you actually commit yourself to narrowing the wealth gap (but then someone on TLS will trash on you for it, lol).

Lastly, there's one dispositive reason why Cornell Law will inevitably send a few grads (although far fewer than some other 'elite' schools) into $40K/year shitlaw: the legal economy SUCKS right now, and isn't likely to improve while the big firm model undergoes such a dramatic transition. Getting a bachelors offers a wide variety of career trajectories. Getting a JD does quite the opposite.

[cotiger]

TLS always manages to come out in full philistine force for any conversation about higher education, particularly undergraduate degrees.