Intellectual property associate vs. patent associate salary Forum

[James H.]

Hey all,

First post. I am currently a junior majoring in electrical & computer engineering. As such, I was originally planning to focus on patent law. While researching possible careers, I discovered something strange: there seems to be a huge disconnect in the salaries paid to I.P. associates vs. patent associates.

My data comes from Glassdoor (looking at top law firms) as well as salary.com. I'm not sure how accurate these reports are, but on average, it would appear that patent attorneys make around $40,000 less a year. I find this strange because of the separate (and more strenuous) requirements for patent attorneys.

I was hoping someone more enlightened than I could shed some light on the matter. This may sound foolish, but my fear is that by taking the patent bar I automatically limit my earning potential. Is there something I am missing here? Is it assumed that you are a patent attorney by passing the patent bar, or could you simply be a more marketable I.P. attorney?

Thank you,

James H.

[The Regulator]

James:

I think most will agree that right now Patent Attorneys that specialize in Electrical Engineering make their own salaries and are probably more than other Patent Attorneys because they are in such high demand right now. Just do a jobs search for patent attorneys around the country in general and you will find that most are for electrical engineers. You are in a good boat. Secondly, don't become a patent attorney or IP attorney for the money. Do you because you like the work.

BTW, using the glassdoor you are not getting a complete picture. If you are really interested in IP or Patents you should join AIPLA. As a student I think it costs like $25-$50, and they send out Salary and Compensation stats they have pulled from their members. It is a lot more informative than any of the salary websites. You can also get a good salary by googling Robert Half Legal Salaries. Both of these should give you a good idea.

You should know that salary is going to be dependent largely on the cost of living of where you are working out of, and the size of the firm or company you work for. If it is in a major city like Boston or NYC you are going to be able to charge more. One reason I can think of why IP Attorneys might make more will depend if they are doing transaction work like filing trademarks or copyright or doing litigation. I think litigation usually pays really well, but has long hours.

If I were you I would take the patent bar. The legal field is competitive and you want as many doors open to you as possible to fall back on.

[Dr. Mantis Toboggan]

Blind leading the blind ITT.

James - a few things about top law firms:

- The pay across top firms is substantially similar from firm to firm. They essentially all pay the same for whatever "year" you are as an associate.

- Top firms for the most part pay lockstep, meaning that no matter how in demand your are or how super awesome you are as an attorney, your salary will increase year-over-year the same as everyone else according to a pre-defined pay scale (often referred to as the "New York scale").

- Top firms pay the same across all types of IP associates. As an example, a 2nd year PhD EE PatBar registered patent attorney will be paid the same as a 2nd year trademark associate at the same firm.

- Top firms pay the same across all practice groups. As an example, that 2nd year PhD EE patent attorney will be paid the same as a 2nd year attorney in the real estate group.

A couple random notes:

- Do not pay attention to Glassdoor or other bullshit sites where the sample group is self selecting and titles and salaries are not moderated. https://www.nalpdirectory.com/ should be your source for expected compensation.

- Don't get hung up on titles. Again, there is no standardization on sites like Glassdoor. What matters is whether you are a partner track associate and your experience.

- You really should work as an engineer for a few years before jumping into law school. Really lends some perspective on how IP fits into a corporation's strategy, how engineers day-to-day lives are, and gives you a chance to learn what working in a professional organization is like before jumping into a distilled and much more intense environment of a law firm.

[James H.]

Just do a jobs search for patent attorneys around the country in general and you will find that most are for electrical engineers.

I have seen quite a few job listings asking for EE or CE, so at least I am in the right boat.

Secondly, don't become a patent attorney or IP attorney for the money.

I agree, but at the same time, school is an investment. I don't absolutely love engineering, but I study it because it maximizes my marketability upon graduation and I don't absolutely hate it. When contemplating my future, I want to have a full sense of what my options are, this includes salary information. I didn't see the point of taking on so much debt for such a small return (according to glassdoor). Love the job or not, it wouldn't make sense for me to owe $250,000 and make $100k a year (slightly more than I would make with a paid for masters in EE).

You should know that salary is going to be dependent largely on the cost of living of where you are working out of, and the size of the firm or company you work for. If it is in a major city like Boston or NYC you are going to be able to charge more

Absolutely!

Thank you for all the information!

[James H.]

Hey Doc, thanks for the reply.

- Top firms pay the same across all types of IP associates. As an example, a 2nd year PhD EE PatBar registered patent attorney will be paid the same as a 2nd year trademark associate at the same firm.

This was the information I was looking for. As I said, it really didn't make sense to me if IP attorneys made that much more than patent attorneys.

- Top firms pay the same across all practice groups. As an example, that 2nd year PhD EE patent attorney will be paid the same as a 2nd year attorney in the real estate group.

I know the scale that you are referring to. I wasn't sure if this also applied to patent attorneys. It would make sense since these scales are listed for associates, which would encompass both IP and patent attorneys. I wanted to verify that though.

- Do not pay attention to Glassdoor or other bullshit sites where the sample group is self selecting and titles and salaries are not moderated. https://www.nalpdirectory.com/ should be your source for expected compensation.

- Don't get hung up on titles. Again, there is no standardization on sites like Glassdoor. What matters is whether you are a partner track associate and your experience.

Noted. Thank you.

- You really should work as an engineer for a few years before jumping into law school. Really lends some perspective on how IP fits into a corporation's strategy, how engineers day-to-day lives are, and gives you a chance to learn what working in a professional organization is like before jumping into a distilled and much more intense environment of a law firm.

I am involved in a program that grants students the opportunity to work as full time engineers. Upon graduation, I will have over a year of experience in the field. Upon graduation, I am considering taking another two years to work and pay off my student loans. Also, before going to college, I worked as an assistant at a personal injury law firm. Granted, it wasn't a huge law firm, but I did get a feel for the atmosphere. Finally, what is your basis for saying that law is much more intense than engineering? Are you/were you a practicing engineer?

Thank you,

James H.

[patogordo]

some firms in secondary markets do pay patent attorneys more than regular attorneys. kilpatrick in atlanta comes to mind. it's the exception, though.

[Dr. Mantis Toboggan]

- You really should work as an engineer for a few years before jumping into law school. Really lends some perspective on how IP fits into a corporation's strategy, how engineers day-to-day lives are, and gives you a chance to learn what working in a professional organization is like before jumping into a distilled and much more intense environment of a law firm.

I am involved in a program that grants students the opportunity to work as full time engineers. Upon graduation, I will have over a year of experience in the field. Upon graduation, I am considering taking another two years to work and pay off my student loans. Also, before going to college, I worked as an assistant at a personal injury law firm. Granted, it wasn't a huge law firm, but I did get a feel for the atmosphere. Finally, what is your basis for saying that law is much more intense than engineering? Are you/were you a practicing engineer?

Thank you,

James H.

I was an engineer for a little over five years at a very, very large industrial corporation. Engineering can get pretty hairy at times when there is a possibility of missing project due dates (especially customer-driven due dates), but for the most part it isn't too bad. People are generally easy to work with except for the program managers and business directors whose compensation is tied to their performance. But for the most part you don't have to deal with them unless you are in project management.

Personalities are definitely stronger in a law firm setting. It can be difficult getting used to a law firm because you generally don't have someone constantly feeding you work like an engineering manager. Thus you end up dealing with multiple partners giving you things to do, and each partner expects you to treat them like you are exclusively working for them. Work days are longer. The amount of work is far and above anything in engineering.

Basically amplifying everything about a typical career. Which is why I tell people they should try to get some work experience in another career before jumping to law so they can learn what the world of work is like instead of directly entering the world of work on speed. It's like learning how to ride a bike by biking down Everest.


Something you should consider: If you do plan on going to law school, you should definitely do it part-time while working at a law firm as a patent agent (or student associate better yet). They generally require something like 1500-1600 hours instead of the typical 1800-2000. Most firms are good about giving time off during exams because they probably went through the same thing. Plus your billable rate will be much lower, thus you get to spend a lot more time on tasks learning how to do things properly.

You'll essentially have 3-4 years worth of experience by the time you graduate, some firms may even give you credit toward your partner track by starting you out as a 2nd-3rd year associate. Some student associate gigs pay for law school (though that is difficult to find because of unpredictable hiring patterns for student associates). Pay is pretty nice too.

[James H.]

I was an engineer for a little over five years at a very, very large industrial corporation. Engineering can get pretty hairy at times when there is a possibility of missing project due dates (especially customer-driven due dates), but for the most part it isn't too bad. People are generally easy to work with except for the program managers and business directors whose compensation is tied to their performance. But for the most part you don't have to deal with them unless you are in project management.

If you don't mind my asking, what type of engineering did you study? It is rare for me to meet another engineer interested in/practicing law. How did law school compare to your studies as an engineering student?

Something you should consider: If you do plan on going to law school, you should definitely do it part-time while working at a law firm as a patent agent (or student associate better yet). They generally require something like 1500-1600 hours instead of the typical 1800-2000. Most firms are good about giving time off during exams because they probably went through the same thing. Plus your billable rate will be much lower, thus you get to spend a lot more time on tasks learning how to do things properly.

This is a very attractive option. I have supported myself throughout my education and will continue to do so through law school, so an opportunity to earn an income while reducing money borrowed for life expenses is a huge plus. How does one go about obtaining a position as a student associate? Particularly, when do I apply for such a position? If you could point me in the right direction, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you,

James H.

[Dr. Mantis Toboggan]

EE here. I would say that my engineering degree was much, much harder than the law degree. Engineering concepts are just intrinsically more difficult. Plus, most of my engineering classes were not curved, and many people failed or received very low grades. I think the average GPA at graduation for my school was right around a 3.0 (maybe a little under).

Law school, on the other hand, covers concepts and topics that are learn-able by most. Classes are curved which makes it difficult to do poorly (but equally difficult to do well). Law school is much more competitive because of the curve and because everyone is trying to distinguish themselves from the rest of the class so they can have a better shot at a shrinking job pool.

Overall, my time as an engineering student was much more memorable and my classmates were much more tolerable. I grew to resent law students after about a year of law school (I'm sure you'll hear other people say that too).

As for the student associate gigs. They are tough to come by and most are in the DC area due to the amount of law schools that offer part-time programs. That's also where the highest concentration of IP firms are. You just have to keep your eye out on the law firms' website to see when they post student associate positions. Though most of them want you to be already enrolled in law school.

I started out as a patent agent and then landed a student associate gig at a firm. This seems to be the best way because you become very attractive with some experience on your resume. Another option (which many, many people pursue) is to get a job at the patent office. Firms also like to see people with Examiner experience.

If I were you, I would start researching this as much as you can now. The more you are able to learn, the better decisions you can make. Search through the Employment forum here for advice on how to find what practice groups each firm has. This is also a good list of firms that may have patent agent / student associate jobs from time to time - http://www.iptoday.com/issues/2014/03/t ... -firms.asp

Another option is to just call or email people who are working as patent attorneys, patent agents, student associates and just ask them questions and figure out how they broke into the field. Great way to learn some job hunting strategy, make some connections, and build a network. Check out the above-mentioned list for a good place to start looking for people in the field. Obviously if you have someone that can connect you to someone in the field, that is the best way to go.

Hope that helps.

[iamgeorgebush]

hey OP: if i were you, i would be very skeptical of this advice to go to LS part-time. i don't know much about IP hiring, but for any other type of biglaw, part-time is a bad bad idea. for the sake of your career, please get more opinions than this one guy before making that decision.

[Dr. Mantis Toboggan]

hey OP: if i were you, i would be very skeptical of this advice to go to LS part-time. i don't know much about IP hiring, but for any other type of biglaw, part-time is a bad bad idea. for the sake of your career, please get more opinions than this one guy before making that decision.

You are right in that part-time LS is not the best option for any other type of biglaw, but patent law is not like any other type of biglaw. Many law firms have special programs built specifically around hiring part-time students with reg numbers so that they can work through law school and train them while their billing rate is much lower than a first-year associate. Even if they are not in law school, even more firms hire patent agents to do prosecution work because of the lower billing rate. In fact, there are some firms where the patent agents and student associates do the bulk of the prosecution work. There is no other type of law like that where you can do a majority of the substantive work you will be doing after graduation while you are still in law school.

Personally, if you have a reg number, I think it would be a terrible to go to law school full time and miss out on 3-4 years of experience. Especially if you are EE. Full-time is certainly a viable option (and the traditional one), but when you graduate, those that stuck it out part-time will be light years ahead of the game. A few of the people that I have spoken to at my firm that went full time regretted not doing the part-time thing. That is why so many part-time programs are filled with patent-related students. I would say that 30%-75% of my night classes were a combination of student associates, patent agents, and patent examiners.

As i told OP, start networking and getting in touch with attorneys, patent agents, student associates, and figure out how they landed their jobs. Also might want to check out http://www.intelproplaw.com

[InTheHouse]

hey OP: if i were you, i would be very skeptical of this advice to go to LS part-time. i don't know much about IP hiring, but for any other type of biglaw, part-time is a bad bad idea. for the sake of your career, please get more opinions than this one guy before making that decision.

Dr. Manis is mostly on point. However, there is one very good reason to not go part-time - you limit yourself to patent prosecution. It would be worth finding out if patent prosecution is something you could see yourself enjoying. Some find it to be quite boring. Others enjoy working with a diverse array of cases. Your satisfaction with work is also going to depend on what you're getting fed by your partner.

However, there are some things that are broadly applicable.

- Don't worry about the distinction between titles. I don't know anyone who started out at less than $130k. Most people were between $145k and $160k. Once you're on the job you'll realize that you'd trade some salary for more interesting work. So worry about finding a good fit.

- EE can be rough if you get stuck with the wrong partner. A lot of clients (mostly big electronics companies) are pushing for a fixed fee per response. It isn't uncommon for associates to have to write off a bunch of hours on a regular basis. I'm sure there are plenty of complaints on glassdoor from Fish and Knobbe associates. People with bio/med/pharma clients don't ever have this problem.

- Patent prosecution is pretty dry, but the hours are predictable (and sometimes not too shabby). People are mostly nice and laid back. Haven't really bumped into any jerks.

If you are generally interested in technology and looking to do some fairly interesting work, look at the Technology Transactions practice groups at some of the big firms (MoFo, Cooley, WSGR). Of course, going to law school part-time would effectively bar you from this line of work.

I'd say just relax get some work experience, make some money and then figure out if patent work is what you really want to do.

[James H.]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the wealth of information. It is fulfilling, as well as slightly overwhelming, to have so many options. Obviously, more research is required on my part to decide the right path for me, but I do very much appreciate all of your response!

As other issues have arisen, I think that my best option is to work in industry as an engineer for a few years before applying to law school.

I would say that my engineering degree was much, much harder than the law degree.

This is what I suspected, but wanted to confirm. The average GPA at my university is 2.8 with absolutely no curve. It will definitely be a change going from a team atmosphere to a place where everyone is trying to get ahead. Honestly, I'm glad to hear it gets academically easier. I could handle the feeling of resentment from my peers, but the thought of 3 more years of coursework at the EE difficulty would make me shudder. Thanks for sharing your experiences.