Will anyone crack the top 14? Forum

(Please Ask Questions and Answer Questions)
NYC-WVU

Bronze
Posts: 275
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:38 pm

Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by NYC-WVU » Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:37 pm

I was wondering which schools will move the most in USNWR rankings over the next ten years.
Will Yale drop to fifth, as many have predicted? Will Arizona State continue to rise?
More importantly, will UT, UCLA or Vandy crack the top 14. And if any of them do, what impact will it have on Duke, Northwestern, Cornell, Georgetown, etc.
What do you all think?

secondshot

New
Posts: 97
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:22 pm

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by secondshot » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:18 pm

As someone who is gunning for UCLA my question would be, what is UCLA doing to reach the T-14? I mean, are they taking certain steps to improve their program that would give them a bump? Curious to know who is doing what to justify their movement up, or down.

Chekhov'sGun

Bronze
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:43 pm

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by Chekhov'sGun » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:35 pm

NYC-WVU wrote:I was wondering which schools will move the most in USNWR rankings over the next ten years.
Will Yale drop to fifth, as many have predicted? Will Arizona State continue to rise?
More importantly, will UT, UCLA or Vandy crack the top 14. And if any of them do, what impact will it have on Duke, Northwestern, Cornell, Georgetown, etc.
What do you all think?
No

User avatar
Ramius

Gold
Posts: 2018
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:39 am

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by Ramius » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:35 pm

UT tied for 14 a few years back, and guess what? Nothing changed! Forget usnwr, look at employment in the region you want to work, cost of attendance and nothing else. Almost all other considerations are pointless.

PrideandGlory1776

Bronze
Posts: 307
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:14 pm

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by PrideandGlory1776 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:39 pm

Barring massive mismanagement Yale is #1 in perpetuity.

No. There will be no other schools in the top 14.

No, it takes decades to build great institutions not years.

Want to continue reading?

Register now to search topics and post comments!

Absolutely FREE!


User avatar
pedestrian

Bronze
Posts: 461
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:38 pm

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by pedestrian » Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:43 pm

Will Brazil become the richest, most powerful country in the world? Will football fall to badminton? Will nurses make more than doctors? Will corn flakes regain its place as our most treasured breakfast cereal?

manu6926

Bronze
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:05 pm

...

Post by manu6926 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:00 pm

...
Last edited by manu6926 on Sun May 25, 2014 10:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

NYC-WVU

Bronze
Posts: 275
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:38 pm

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by NYC-WVU » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:46 pm

matthewsean85 wrote:UT tied for 14 a few years back, and guess what? Nothing changed! Forget usnwr, look at employment in the region you want to work, cost of attendance and nothing else. Almost all other considerations are pointless.
Are you sure that employment isn't affected by USNWR? For example, the firm where I work no longer interview students from certain regional schools in the area, despite the fact that many of the partners at my firm attended these schools, and despite the fact that our most recent hires from these schools have been excellent contributors to the firm. Therefore, I assume that our hiring decisions with respect to these schools has something to do with polling or rankings or something. Maybe not USNWR, but that's certainly the metric that gets thrown around the most.

NYC-WVU

Bronze
Posts: 275
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:38 pm

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by NYC-WVU » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:50 pm

pedestrian wrote:Will Brazil become the richest, most powerful country in the world? Will football fall to badminton? Will nurses make more than doctors? Will corn flakes regain its place as our most treasured breakfast cereal?
1. No. Top ten maybe, but not #1.
2. Football will fall, but not to badminton.
3. No. It's harder to become a doctor, so the pay has to be higher to entice people to pursue this career.
4. Really tough question. I wasn't even aware that corn flakes had been dethroned.

Want to continue reading?

Register for access!

Did I mention it was FREE ?


User avatar
yossarian

Silver
Posts: 1303
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:45 pm

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by yossarian » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:52 pm

NYC-WVU wrote:
matthewsean85 wrote:UT tied for 14 a few years back, and guess what? Nothing changed! Forget usnwr, look at employment in the region you want to work, cost of attendance and nothing else. Almost all other considerations are pointless.
Are you sure that employment isn't affected by USNWR? For example, the firm where I work no longer interview students from certain regional schools in the area, despite the fact that many of the partners at my firm attended these schools, and despite the fact that our most recent hires from these schools have been excellent contributors to the firm. Therefore, I assume that our hiring decisions with respect to these schools has something to do with polling or rankings or something. Maybe not USNWR, but that's certainly the metric that gets thrown around the most.

It's loosely USNWR. It wouldn't matter if USNWR existed though. Because jobs are so scarce, your firm can hire only the best students from the best schools. When there were plenty of jobs to go around, they might grab a few elite students/schools and fill the rest of their enormous summer classes with regional students. Now, with fewer summers to fill and more top school students fighting for fewer jobs, they can pull only from elite schools.

Call it USNWR. Call it all lawyers knowing HYSCCN are elite. Doesn't matter. It's not year to year ranking. It's the longterm value of these schools.

User avatar
Ramius

Gold
Posts: 2018
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:39 am

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by Ramius » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:53 pm

NYC-WVU wrote:
matthewsean85 wrote:UT tied for 14 a few years back, and guess what? Nothing changed! Forget usnwr, look at employment in the region you want to work, cost of attendance and nothing else. Almost all other considerations are pointless.
Are you sure that employment isn't affected by USNWR? For example, the firm where I work no longer interview students from certain regional schools in the area, despite the fact that many of the partners at my firm attended these schools, and despite the fact that our most recent hires from these schools have been excellent contributors to the firm. Therefore, I assume that our hiring decisions with respect to these schools has something to do with polling or rankings or something. Maybe not USNWR, but that's certainly the metric that gets thrown around the most.
It has literally nothing to do with usnwr and entirely to do with the availability of positions at your firm. Take the state of MN as an example...it used to be that there would be a smattering of William Mitchell, St. Thomas, and such grads along with t14 and UMN grads at the biggest firms in the twin cities. Nowadays? Give a hearty good luck to even UMN grads looking for MN big law gigs. It has nothing to do with rankings and simply to do with the fact that even top grads are searching desperately for jobs.

User avatar
Balthy

Silver
Posts: 665
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:28 pm

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by Balthy » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:55 pm

Who the hell thinks Yale will fall to fifth?

User avatar
Tanicius

Gold
Posts: 2984
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:54 am

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by Tanicius » Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:58 pm

pedestrian wrote:Will Brazil become the richest, most powerful country in the world? Will football fall to badminton? Will nurses make more than doctors? Will corn flakes regain its place as our most treasured breakfast cereal?

Just wait until they build a space shuttle to commandeer our secret kinetic rod space station and use it on us. You'll be sorry you mocked the Federation.

Register now!

Resources to assist law school applicants, students & graduates.

It's still FREE!


rad lulz

Platinum
Posts: 9807
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by rad lulz » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:05 pm

.
Last edited by rad lulz on Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
rayiner

Platinum
Posts: 6145
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by rayiner » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:09 pm

NYC-WVU wrote:
matthewsean85 wrote:UT tied for 14 a few years back, and guess what? Nothing changed! Forget usnwr, look at employment in the region you want to work, cost of attendance and nothing else. Almost all other considerations are pointless.
Are you sure that employment isn't affected by USNWR? For example, the firm where I work no longer interview students from certain regional schools in the area, despite the fact that many of the partners at my firm attended these schools, and despite the fact that our most recent hires from these schools have been excellent contributors to the firm. Therefore, I assume that our hiring decisions with respect to these schools has something to do with polling or rankings or something. Maybe not USNWR, but that's certainly the metric that gets thrown around the most.
The hierarchy of schools within a region predates the rankings. People don't look to USNWR to tell them whether GULC is better than GW. The fact that GULC is ranked ahead of GW is a reflection of the hierarchy that exists, it doesn't cause that hierarchy.

manu6926

Bronze
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:05 pm

...

Post by manu6926 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:20 pm

...
Last edited by manu6926 on Sun May 25, 2014 10:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Ramius

Gold
Posts: 2018
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:39 am

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by Ramius » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:30 pm

manu6926 wrote:
rayiner wrote:
NYC-WVU wrote:
matthewsean85 wrote:UT tied for 14 a few years back, and guess what? Nothing changed! Forget usnwr, look at employment in the region you want to work, cost of attendance and nothing else. Almost all other considerations are pointless.
Are you sure that employment isn't affected by USNWR? For example, the firm where I work no longer interview students from certain regional schools in the area, despite the fact that many of the partners at my firm attended these schools, and despite the fact that our most recent hires from these schools have been excellent contributors to the firm. Therefore, I assume that our hiring decisions with respect to these schools has something to do with polling or rankings or something. Maybe not USNWR, but that's certainly the metric that gets thrown around the most.
The hierarchy of schools within a region predates the rankings. People don't look to USNWR to tell them whether GULC is better than GW. The fact that GULC is ranked ahead of GW is a reflection of the hierarchy that exists, it doesn't cause that hierarchy.
I think the causation here works both ways. There's a feedback loop with the existing hierarchy determining the rankings, and the rankings in turn influencing the hierarchy.
There is no factual basis to say this is wrong, but I tend to disagree. The sense of hierarchy is more likely stemmed from the long-standing air of "preftige" that exists in law. You could argue that the original rankings that formed the original sense of hierarchy could continue to affect the hiring of partners nationwide, but I think this is even somewhat far-fetched. The T14 are what they are because they were considered elite before any quantifiable measure deemed them elite. There would be no feedback loop in that.

Get unlimited access to all forums and topics

Register now!

I'm pretty sure I told you it's FREE...


NYC-WVU

Bronze
Posts: 275
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:38 pm

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by NYC-WVU » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:57 pm

rayiner wrote:The hierarchy of schools within a region predates the rankings. People don't look to USNWR to tell them whether GULC is better than GW. The fact that GULC is ranked ahead of GW is a reflection of the hierarchy that exists, it doesn't cause that hierarchy.
I can appreciate that this is true for schools that don't change in rankings. But what about the ones that do. Are law firms not going to reconsider Alabama, after it moved from the 40s ten years ago to the high 20s now? Or did the school's ranking change because law firms were reconsidering it?

User avatar
yossarian

Silver
Posts: 1303
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:45 pm

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by yossarian » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:01 pm

NYC-WVU wrote:
rayiner wrote:The hierarchy of schools within a region predates the rankings. People don't look to USNWR to tell them whether GULC is better than GW. The fact that GULC is ranked ahead of GW is a reflection of the hierarchy that exists, it doesn't cause that hierarchy.
I can appreciate that this is true for schools that don't change in rankings. But what about the ones that do. Are law firms not going to reconsider Alabama, after it moved from the 40s ten years ago to the high 20s now? Or did the school's ranking change because law firms were reconsidering it?
It changed because USNWR adjusted its rubric. Because they recruited slightly better students to work in the same market. They increased $/student. Lots of options. The option that employers saw the slight rise and started to preference it is probably not 100% wrong, but its effect is so marginal it is meaningless. Further, these employers would still be in AL's traditional placement region. Mostly the same employers in the same cities are employing the same students.

Mal Reynolds

Diamond
Posts: 12612
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:16 am

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by Mal Reynolds » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:06 pm

rayiner wrote:
NYC-WVU wrote:
matthewsean85 wrote:UT tied for 14 a few years back, and guess what? Nothing changed! Forget usnwr, look at employment in the region you want to work, cost of attendance and nothing else. Almost all other considerations are pointless.
Are you sure that employment isn't affected by USNWR? For example, the firm where I work no longer interview students from certain regional schools in the area, despite the fact that many of the partners at my firm attended these schools, and despite the fact that our most recent hires from these schools have been excellent contributors to the firm. Therefore, I assume that our hiring decisions with respect to these schools has something to do with polling or rankings or something. Maybe not USNWR, but that's certainly the metric that gets thrown around the most.
The hierarchy of schools within a region predates the rankings. People don't look to USNWR to tell them whether GULC is better than GW. The fact that GULC is ranked ahead of GW is a reflection of the hierarchy that exists, it doesn't cause that hierarchy.
OMG never leave again. TLS needs your knowledge.

03152016

Platinum
Posts: 9180
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:14 am

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by 03152016 » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:26 pm

NYC-WVU wrote:I was wondering which schools will move the most in USNWR rankings over the next ten years.
Will Yale drop to fifth, as many have predicted? Will Arizona State continue to rise?
More importantly, will UT, UCLA or Vandy crack the top 14. And if any of them do, what impact will it have on Duke, Northwestern, Cornell, Georgetown, etc.
I haven't heard anyone predict a drop in ranking for Yale. ASU isn't rising in the rankings; they've dropped two years in a row. Doubt UT/UCLA/Vandy makes their way into T14, but it wouldn't change much unless it's long-term and accompanied by a change in something actually meaningful -- employment numbers, reputation, etc. UT spending a year tied with GULC again won't make a difference to Cornell.

Communicate now with those who not only know what a legal education is, but can offer you worthy advice and commentary as you complete the three most educational, yet challenging years of your law related post graduate life.

Register now, it's still FREE!


NYC-WVU

Bronze
Posts: 275
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:38 pm

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by NYC-WVU » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:41 pm

yossarian71 wrote:
NYC-WVU wrote:
rayiner wrote:The hierarchy of schools within a region predates the rankings. People don't look to USNWR to tell them whether GULC is better than GW. The fact that GULC is ranked ahead of GW is a reflection of the hierarchy that exists, it doesn't cause that hierarchy.
I can appreciate that this is true for schools that don't change in rankings. But what about the ones that do. Are law firms not going to reconsider Alabama, after it moved from the 40s ten years ago to the high 20s now? Or did the school's ranking change because law firms were reconsidering it?
It changed because USNWR adjusted its rubric. Because they recruited slightly better students to work in the same market. They increased $/student. Lots of options. The option that employers saw the slight rise and started to preference it is probably not 100% wrong, but its effect is so marginal it is meaningless. Further, these employers would still be in AL's traditional placement region. Mostly the same employers in the same cities are employing the same students.
Ok. The same employers/same cities/same students is a very good point. But some of those cities are growing rapidly, while others are not growing, or even declining. Will that not effect rankings? My original question (mostly to myself) was how long can Texas (as a state) be kept out of the top ten? Currently, the top 14 doesn't include any schools south of Chicago between Raleigh and Berkeley. Is that sustainable? Business is booming in that enormous part of the country. Won't education follow it's lead, at least a little bit? Or maybe not. It's just a question.
It's interesting that nobody has made a prediction for any school rising or falling. Does no one have any ideas about this? I would sincerely be interested to know what people think. Even if you don't care about USNWR. What schools are better suited to improve the "quality" of their applicants?

User avatar
yossarian

Silver
Posts: 1303
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:45 pm

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by yossarian » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:50 pm

NYC-WVU wrote: Ok. The same employers/same cities/same students is a very good point. But some of those cities are growing rapidly, while others are not growing, or even declining. Will that not effect rankings? My original question (mostly to myself) was how long can Texas (as a state) be kept out of the top ten? Currently, the top 14 doesn't include any schools south of Chicago between Raleigh and Berkeley. Is that sustainable? Business is booming in that enormous part of the country. Won't education follow it's lead, at least a little bit? Or maybe not. It's just a question.
It's interesting that nobody has made a prediction for any school rising or falling. Does no one have any ideas about this? I would sincerely be interested to know what people think. Even if you don't care about USNWR. What schools are better suited to improve the "quality" of their applicants?
USNWR doesn't factor employment enough for market variability to mean too much. ATL rankings do.

Texas is kept out of the t10, t14 because the schools don't have the same reputation. Better employment in TX alone won't help it develop a t14 reputation. Texas law employment has been (relatively) good for a while. For a southerner, UT for Texas law is a great option. But it is not the same in providing national career prospects as HYSCCN.

User avatar
pedestrian

Bronze
Posts: 461
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:38 pm

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by pedestrian » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:11 am

manu6926 wrote:Based on past rankings, I'd say there's a small probability that UCLA, UT or Vandy will crack into T14 by replacing one of Cornell and Georgetown. But other than that, no.
It's possible that Harvard may overtake Yale in the future.
Harvard can't ever overtake Yale because it is nearly three times the size of Yale. Harvard matches Yale in the reputation score, but it will never have the same student:faculty ratio or spending per student. It is much cheaper to build a big building for 1800 people than to build three buildings that house 600 each. That is true of all of the fixed costs associated with running a law school.

In theory Yale could do something really dumb that would wreck its reputation, or Harvard could start handing out rolexes to incoming 1Ls, but it is far more likely that Stanford will permanently overtake Harvard.

User avatar
jbagelboy

Diamond
Posts: 10361
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm

Re: Will anyone crack the top 14?

Post by jbagelboy » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:52 am

The only way another school would "Crack" the T14 is if they tossed out the current lame duck metric and started fresh.

"Reputation" keeps GULC afloat despite disappointing numbers year after year. If you tossed reputation and added a debt-to-%FT/JD-req/non-fellowship ratio, I could foresee another school (Vanderbilt, most likely) tying GULC in the USNWR rankings.

As it stands, however, that diploma mill actually gained a spot.

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


Post Reply

Return to “Ask a Law Student”