GULC 2L SA rate versus other lower T14 for class of 2013 Forum

[iqbalicarus]

The official word (via an e-mail from Dean Treanor) is that GULC's 2L SA rate for the class of 2013 was 52% (up from 34% for the class of 2011); assuming that most of this is Biglaw (in c/o 2011, GULC placed about 31% in NLJ250, so the correspondence should hold), this appears to be a substantial boost to GULC's employment prospects.

As a 0L, I'd like to know what the approximate 2L SA percentages were for other lower T14 schools, namely Duke, Cornell and Northwestern for the class of 2013 from current students. Data from Vandy and UT would also be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[hephaestus]

Cornell career services told us the rate this year was ~70%. Obviously, take this with a grain of salt since it comes from the school.

[senorhosh]

Would also like to know this for the rest of the t14 too.

I know NYU and chicago are both around 80%

[kingjoffrey]

Wait - am I missing something - what is this percentage exactly? Is this the number of 2L's with SA's? That seems to be what iqbalicarus is referring to (by comparing to the GULC NLJ250 numbers from 2011).

If so, all these numbers seem high. Especially these 70%/80% figures. Don't think there's even that many people interested in SA's (after discounting for private interest/gov/etc. folks).

[Great Satchmo]

I would be extremely weary of that figure. If you really are going to base your decision on something like that, I'd push for information on just exactly what is included in that - and then extract only NLJ250 positions.

They could very well be including every single student who obtained employment through OCI or some other school-sponsored/involved job search.

Seems like the entering class is about 500 students. Do you really believe that 150 students last year got NLJ250 jobs while a year later 250 did? Do the math on that soft of increase. Consider the fact that there are at least 13 other schools where the same employers are looking to hire from, and ask whether you have seen such a drastic increase in hiring in those places as well.

I would certainly believe that there could be some uptick in hiring, but nothing on that magnitude.

[iqbalicarus]

Seems like the entering class is about 500 students. Do you really believe that 150 students last year got NLJ250 jobs while a year later 250 did? Do the math on that soft of increase. Consider the fact that there are at least 13 other schools where the same employers are looking to hire from, and ask whether you have seen such a drastic increase in hiring in those places as well.

I would certainly believe that there could be some uptick in hiring, but nothing on that magnitude.

Well, a shift of this sort is not exactly unprecedented, is it? In the class of 2011, Duke had 38.03% of its graduates in the NLJ250, while the same figure for the class of 2012 was 48.42%; Cornell's rise from 41.5% in the class of 2009 to 58.33% in the class of 2010 also confirms that proportional jumps such as this are entirely possible within the lower T14. I don't see why this would be unbelievable for GULC (which has just as much "legal prestige" as its traditional peers, i.e. NW, Cornell and Duke).

[bk1]

Well, a shift of this sort is not exactly unprecedented, is it? In the class of 2011, Duke had 38.03% of its graduates in the NLJ250, while the same figure for the class of 2012 was 48.42%; Cornell's rise from 41.5% in the class of 2009 to 58.33% in the class of 2010 also confirms that proportional jumps such as this are entirely possible within the lower T14. I don't see why this would be unbelievable for GULC (which has just as much "legal prestige" as its traditional peers, i.e. NW, Cornell and Duke).

Duke, Cornell, and NU are much smaller schools. A percentage swing of that size takes a much smaller numerical amount of students. Because GULC is so large, large percentage swings mean large numerical swings. Numerical swings of that size are suspect was Satchmo's point.

[09042014]

You can't tell because what an SA is can be interpreted very differently.

[iqbalicarus]

You can't tell because what an SA is can be interpreted very differently.

This is something I was also wondering; do non-biglaw firms actually offer summer associateships?

[iqbalicarus]

Duke, Cornell, and NU are much smaller schools. A percentage swing of that size takes a much smaller numerical amount of students. Because GULC is so large, large percentage swings mean large numerical swings. Numerical swings of that size are suspect was Satchmo's point.

Fair enough, but there is definitely evidence of a numerical swing in the NEGATIVE direction as far as GULC is concerned: 298 (c/o 2009) to 198 (c/o 2011 and c/o 2012); volatility in the marketplace, after all, can go both ways. Since OCI at most T14s DOES appear, from TLS and XOXO hearsay anyway, to have gone much better for the class of 2013, I don't know whether a significant upswing in GULC's NLJ250 prospects is quite as suspect as Satchmo was making it out to be.

[bimmer11]

You can't tell because what an SA is can be interpreted very differently.

This is something I was also wondering; do non-biglaw firms actually offer summer associateships?

In my area quite a few mid-sized firms used to offer some sort of SA program, but it was one of the first things to be slashed from the budget a few years ago. The good news is a few have come back but their funding comes from various sources (not 100% from the firm).

[kingjoffrey]

Personally, I'm suspect of all these numbers. But I will believe GULC from 31% in 2011 to 50% in 2012

before I believe

NYLS from 40% to 80% / Chicago from 45% to 80% in the same timeframe.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... AW_SCHOOLS

[bk1]

Personally, I'm suspect of all these numbers. But I will believe GULC from 31% in 2011 to 50% in 2012

before I believe

NYLS from 40% to 80% / Chicago from 45% to 80% in the same timeframe.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... AW_SCHOOLS

You're not looking at it entirely correct. It isn't really 31->50 because that 50 likely includes people who will end up clerking (but the 31 does not). It also doesn't factor in no offers.

[Tiago Splitter]

Columbia has been about 70-75% V100 SAs each of the last two years.

http://www.law.columbia.edu/null/downlo ... _id=611272

https://web.law.columbia.edu/sites/defa ... s-2012.pdf

It's important to note that the NLJ survey has pretty significantly undercounted in the last couple of years at least. For example in 2013 Paul Weiss was not counted at all, and according to NLJ Davis Polk hired almost no one. Those numbers need to be looked at appropriately. Also as bk alluded to most clerks work as summer associates during their 2L summer.

[gchatbrah]

Personally, I'm suspect of all these numbers. But I will believe GULC from 31% in 2011 to 50% in 2012

before I believe

NYLS from 40% to 80% / Chicago from 45% to 80% in the same timeframe.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... AW_SCHOOLS

Conflating NJL250 numbers 9 months out with 2L summer SA percentages. Even during the recession, Chicago, for example, had 70% of it's class in summer positions at law firms. It's not clear how many of them were NLJ250, how many were intended to lead to full-time offers, and how many got no-offer fucked in 2010-2011. A combination of those things, plus clerks getting 2L positions but not returning as graduates, is how you get 45% NLJ250 placement from 70% 2L summer firm placement.

http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective ... oymentdata

[jbagelboy]

Lots of 2L SA -> 1 year deferment and higher rate of no offers in 2010, 2011. Even top firms were pushing back start dates for former SA's. not sure these would count for 9mo NLJ250 data. To second above posters, comparing the two distinct data types will be unreliable

[UVAIce]

Personally, I'm suspect of all these numbers. But I will believe GULC from 31% in 2011 to 50% in 2012

before I believe

NYLS from 40% to 80% / Chicago from 45% to 80% in the same timeframe.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... AW_SCHOOLS

Clearly trolling NYU.