Safe to say Penn and NYU are peers? Forum

[SaintsTheMetal]

Just trying to work out my ED strategy in september

Everything I see about Penn's I like, while NYU seems to be more questionable. I don't know where the TLS "CCN MVP" thing came from but I really don't see the sense in it unless it's more just a relic of the past or something.

Penn seems to have top notch placement numbers, both in clerkships and biglaw.. only thing that is a little scary at Penn is from this thread:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&start=75
seems that if you miss out on big law at Penn you might be trouble.. whereas below median at some schools, like Michigan (because of their LRAP,) might not be in as much trouble. However NYU hasn't released this data at all, so it's hard to compare the two against each other I think.

Add in the fact that NYU has the crazy COL and in general less scholarship money, is there any good reason to favor NYU over Penn? I'm just legitimately curious if there is a big positive to this T6 school VS a T7 school that I've missed in my reading so far.

[law2015]

The schools seem to be similar but NYU places much better into prestigious firms and has many more PI opportunities for those seeking.

[ConfidenceMan2]

Edit: I find T6 debates obnoxious and don't want to be contributing.

edit again: damn, stealth edit was too slow

[SaintsTheMetal]

T6 has more to do with admissions selectivity than anything meaningful (like job opportunities). The oft-cited exception is the V5/10/20 type firms, where schools like CLS/NYU will send many more SAs than non-T6s.

The relevance of that is debatable, but it's certainly visible in numbers (that I've seen others cite, not claiming authority here). Personally I think NYU over Penn at sticker makes sense for that reason assuming you have literally no reason to prefer one school over the other, but I don't think it's worth much more than that.

By the way, this thread is destined for disaster and a lengthy debate about the T6 and NYU in particular. You are right to be looking at employment outcomes and wrong to be caring about CCN vs MVP etc etc.

Thank you this is a very helpful response.

I guess I've never thought about firm prestige before.. is this something that people really care about, or is it more about job security or something? I've never planned on spending my life in a BigLaw firm, more as a means to build capital before transitioning to a small firm/entrepreneurship, supposing I likely wouldn't make partner anyways.

Does a "prestigious" employer tend to really give you much benefit compared to another market paying non-Vault firm? Just kinda curious what you will get out of these V10s that you otherwise wouldn't, considering the pay scale seems to be identical. Exit options perhaps? Although I'm not sure what a "prestigious" exit option would even be... any information on this subject is much appreciated

[jetissent]

"Add in the fact that NYU has the crazy COL and in general less scholarship money, "

I think the vast majority of students probably have quite similar employment opportunities from NYU and Penn but in re the above I had the opposite experience.

Anecdotal I know, but I am from just outside of Philly, decently above Penn's medians, sent them offers from all of CCN and (seriously) promised to attend if they would match and they gave me $0 and basically told me money should be a less important factor in my decision making then their profs, prestige, etc.

Wait for scholarship offers before getting your heart set on anywhere.

If you're applying ED you have pretty close to 0 chance of a scholarship to either though--I heard of one or two NYU ED kids getting money but that's about it. So if you're going to ED don't worry about scholarship opps at either school. If you want/need scholarships, my advice would be don't ED.

[r6_philly]

The schools seem to be similar but NYU places much better into prestigious firms and has many more PI opportunities for those seeking.

The other reading of your statement is: NYU does not place the median-lower half of its students into NLJ250 firms as well. In other words, since NYU place lower percentage into NLJ250 firms than Penn AND NYU place a higher percentage into V10 firms, AND NYU place more students into PI jobs, the rest of the private sector employment (non-elite law firms) numbers is significantly lower than Penn.

[delusional]

The schools seem to be similar but NYU places much better into prestigious firms and has many more PI opportunities for those seeking.

The other reading of your statement is: NYU does not place the median-lower half of its students into NLJ250 firms as well. In other words, since NYU place lower percentage into NLJ250 firms than Penn AND NYU place a higher percentage into V10 firms, AND NYU place more students into PI jobs, the rest of the private sector employment (non-elite law firms) numbers is significantly lower than Penn.

Ooooh, burn. (I think you're prolly right though, based on nothing but vibes.)

[kaiser]

A number of Penn students transferred into NYU this year. Must be something to it (unless they just wanted to go to school in NY, as opposed to Philly).

Look at the roster of any top firm office in NYC. Count the number of NYU folks compared to Penn folks, and you will understand the benefit of picking NYU over Penn, if a top firm is your goal. Of course, a student from Penn with solid grades will get many offers from great NYC firms. No one denies that. But they just tend to bring in NYU grads in greater numbers.

[Aberzombie1892]

A number of Penn students transferred into NYU this year. Must be something to it (unless they just wanted to go to school in NY, as opposed to Philly).

Look at the roster of any top firm office in NYC. Count the number of NYU folks compared to Penn folks, and you will understand the benefit of picking NYU over Penn, if a top firm is your goal. Of course, a student from Penn with solid grades will get many offers from great NYC firms. No one denies that. But they just tend to bring in NYU grads in greater numbers.

Isn't NYU just way larger than Penn? Looking at attorney profiles and crap like that is worthless when comparing schools when one of the schools is way larger than the other. Traditional NLJ placement is a better predictor of success (and here, Penn would trump NYU in that category).

OP - the schools are similar in most regards. NYU is not better than Penn, Penn is not really better than NYU. Penn (every year since 2007) outperforms NYU in NLJ and federal clerkships combined - to the point where it is frequently on par with Columbia/Harvard. NYU's lack of placement is generally attributed to a PI bias, which may or may not be true. Assuming that that is true, if you are interested in PI, NYU would probably be marginally better than Penn; if you are interested in NLJ firms, Penn would probably be marginally better than NYU.

That essentially sums it up.

[r6_philly]

A number of Penn students transferred into NYU this year. Must be something to it (unless they just wanted to go to school in NY, as opposed to Philly).

Look at the roster of any top firm office in NYC. Count the number of NYU folks compared to Penn folks, and you will understand the benefit of picking NYU over Penn, if a top firm is your goal. Of course, a student from Penn with solid grades will get many offers from great NYC firms. No one denies that. But they just tend to bring in NYU grads in greater numbers.

Many Penn students don't want to live in NYC. Even if they get jobs with NYC firms, they may be lateraling out after a few years. People who stick around NYC have to be those who love to live in the city.

Do the comparison this way:

only 40% of Penn students go to NY (state) after graduation. That's roughly 100 students per class. Many of them may have gone to NY because they are going to their safety firms (because NYC has all the jobs). Once they get their career started they may be actively looking to move out of the city. Compare that with 63% for NYU class of 2011 to NY = 280 grads, most of whom love to to live in the city.

So there is already an almost 3:1 advantage in graduate numbers, I wouldn't be surprised at all that the 5 year out numbers are 5:1 or 6:1.

[run26.2]

A number of Penn students transferred into NYU this year. Must be something to it (unless they just wanted to go to school in NY, as opposed to Philly).

Look at the roster of any top firm office in NYC. Count the number of NYU folks compared to Penn folks, and you will understand the benefit of picking NYU over Penn, if a top firm is your goal. Of course, a student from Penn with solid grades will get many offers from great NYC firms. No one denies that. But they just tend to bring in NYU grads in greater numbers.

Many Penn students don't want to live in NYC. Even if they get jobs with NYC firms, they may be lateraling out after a few years. People who stick around NYC have to be those who love to live in the city.

Do the comparison this way:

only 40% of Penn students go to NY (state) after graduation. That's roughly 100 students per class. Many of them may have gone to NY because they are going to their safety firms (because NYC has all the jobs). Once they get their career started they may be actively looking to move out of the city. Compare that with 63% for NYU class of 2011 to NY = 280 grads, most of whom love to to live in the city.

So there is already an almost 3:1 advantage in graduate numbers, I wouldn't be surprised at all that the 5 year out numbers are 5:1 or 6:1.

The other thing is, at the uber selective firms, there really is little disparity in terms of the number of partners when you correct for class size. At WLRK, CSM, and S&C the ratio is 2:1, which is slightly better for NYU than the actual class size.

I tried to look up non-NYC elite boutiques, but KVN's site was down and BB and Susman don't have good search functions. But at W&C, there was a 7:1 ratio in Penn's favor.

So as far as placement into the most elite firms, Penn holds its own in comparison to NYU. This is especially true given R6's analysis of NYU's placement into NYC.

[moonman157]

Can anyone speak to the quality of professors at each school? Obviously this will have to be a very general response, but I was also under the impression that the T6 held a distinct advantage when it came to faculty (and why the T6 is often encouraged for those with interest in academia).

[r6_philly]

Can anyone speak to the quality of professors at each school? Obviously this will have to be a very general response, but I was also under the impression that the T6 held a distinct advantage when it came to faculty (and why the T6 is often encouraged for those with interest in academia).

Define quality of professors. Brilliant scholars sometimes make the worst professors. Also you won't know who you will have for your 1L year (random section assignment) and sought after professors are hard to have for upper level classes (classes are usually full). I can certainly see why working with noted scholars (especially on a personal level such as a RA) would help future academia placement, but if you are just going to law school to enter the profession I am not sure there is any decided advantage when it comes to full-time faculty. Most of all law professors I have met (even at TTTs) are HYS grads who are brilliant.

[WODKilla123]

Davis Polk (top capital markets firm in the world, which handled the biggest IPO in human history)

2012 Summer Associate Class

HLS 19
CLS 16
NYU 23
Penn 2


and.......there's your difference. hth.

[twenty]

Davis Polk (top capital markets firm in the world, which handled the biggest IPO in human history)

2012 Summer Associate Class

HLS 19
CLS 16
NYU 23
Penn 2


and.......there's your difference. hth.

Ha, I knew NYU > CLS/HLS. I just KNEW.

[abc12345675]

A number of Penn students transferred into NYU this year. Must be something to it (unless they just wanted to go to school in NY, as opposed to Philly).

Look at the roster of any top firm office in NYC. Count the number of NYU folks compared to Penn folks, and you will understand the benefit of picking NYU over Penn, if a top firm is your goal. Of course, a student from Penn with solid grades will get many offers from great NYC firms. No one denies that. But they just tend to bring in NYU grads in greater numbers.

Many Penn students don't want to live in NYC. Even if they get jobs with NYC firms, they may be lateraling out after a few years. People who stick around NYC have to be those who love to live in the city.
.

False. You can live in Jersey/Long Island and the same experience and suburbs of any other city.

[JamMasterJ]

Davis Polk (top capital markets firm in the world, which handled the biggest IPO in human history)

2012 Summer Associate Class

HLS 19
CLS 16
NYU 23
Penn 2


and.......there's your difference. hth.

OP, I'd say there's a slight advantage to going to NYU, but Penn is distinctly better than the schools it's often compared to (MVB). However, the biggest difference is in NY BigLaw placement and PI. For other avenues, there's not a big enough gap to make choosing P over N unjustifiable.

[Renne Walker]

2012 Summer Associate Class

HLS 19
CLS 16
NYU 23
Penn 2


and.......there's your difference. hth.

Seems mighty low for NYU. Then I noticed even lower numbers for CLS/HLS. Say wha? How can those figures be right?

[run26.2]

Davis Polk (top capital markets firm in the world, which handled the biggest IPO in human history)

2012 Summer Associate Class

HLS 19
CLS 16
NYU 23
Penn 2


and.......there's your difference. hth.

For all people only willing to work at NYC firms ranked in the V4-V9, NYC is by far, BY FAR, the better choice.

NYU >>> P

[rayiner]

DPW is particularly snooty about HYSCN.

SullCrom, meanwhile, has 38 attorneys from Penn and 61 from NYU (or exactly the same amount adjusted for class size). STB has 41 NYU and 33 Penn (advantage to Penn adjusted for class size).

[BruceWayne]

Davis Polk (top capital markets firm in the world, which handled the biggest IPO in human history)

2012 Summer Associate Class

HLS 19
CLS 16
NYU 23
Penn 2


and.......there's your difference. hth.

Williams and Connolly (top litigation firm in the world that regularly hires a substantial number of summer assocciates; and which handled Bill Clinton's impeachment defense and at one time employed Elena Kagan--also pays 180K to first years)

Current number of associates from various schools

UVA 13
http://www.wc.com/attorneys-search.html ... Button.y=9

NYU 1
http://www.wc.com/bstoll

and.......there's your difference. hth.

[WODKilla123]

1st off, MTO is the best litigation shop in the USA. dat Cali sunshine bro.

2nd, y u so mad that NYU grads clean up in the V10 and have way lower grade cut offs than Penn grads? Enjoy your V75-100 breh.

See: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... &start=675 for evidence as to how biglaw associates at the nation's most elite firms routinely say NYU = CLS and lump P with MBV. hth.

[rayiner]

1st off, MTO is the best litigation shop in the USA. dat Cali sunshine bro.

2nd, y u so mad that NYU grads clean up in the V10 and have way lower grade cut offs than Penn grads? Enjoy your V75-100 breh.

See: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... &start=675 for evidence as to how biglaw associates at the nation's most elite firms routinely say NYU = CLS and lump P with MBV. hth.

Boom times data: P = N.

http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... t.html?m=1

[run26.2]

1st off, MTO is the best litigation shop in the USA. dat Cali sunshine bro.

2nd, y u so mad that NYU grads clean up in the V10 and have way lower grade cut offs than Penn grads? Enjoy your V75-100 breh.

See: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... &start=675 for evidence as to how biglaw associates at the nation's most elite firms routinely say NYU = CLS and lump P with MBV. hth.

Boom times data: P = N.

http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... t.html?m=1

And for interesting comparison:
http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html

NYU doesn't have an advantage at the truly "elite" firms (using Vault ranking as a proxy for eliteness). But it does place well into the V5-V10. This is directed at the poster before ray.

[rayiner]

I mean basically DPW thinks Penn is a TTT. That's the difference.