Six wrong reasons to go to law school Forum

[071816]

0Ls who are considering law school should read this: --LinkRemoved--

It's by Tucker Max, but it's spot on. Law school is right for a lot of people, but if one of these is your reason for going to law school, you should probably reconsider.

Six worst reasons:

1. “I like arguing and everyone says I’m good at it.”

2. “I want to be like Jack McCoy from Law & Order [or insert your favorite legal TV show character].”

3. “It’s the only way I can think of to use my humanities degree.”

4. “I want to change the world/help homeless people/rescue stray kittens/do something noble.”

5. “I don’t know what else to do.”

6. “I want to make a lot of money.”

[roaringeagle]

0Ls who are considering law school should read this: --LinkRemoved--

It's by Tucker Max, but it's spot on. Law school is right for a lot of people, but if one of these is your reason for going to law school, you should probably reconsider.

Six worst reasons:

1. “I like arguing and everyone says I’m good at it.”

2. “I want to be like Jack McCoy from Law & Order [or insert your favorite legal TV show character].”

3. “It’s the only way I can think of to use my humanities degree.”

4. “I want to change the world/help homeless people/rescue stray kittens/do something noble.”

5. “I don’t know what else to do.”

6. “I want to make a lot of money.”

1. agree'
2.agree
3.disagree
4.disagree
5.possibly disagree
6.disagree

Fact is a law degree can make you significantly better off than you would have been w/o it. I am going to a good school as of now with a massive scholarship. Will I get the best job in the world? Maybe not, but it sure as hell will beat the Management position I have in retail right now. I work 66 hours a week. I do not make 125,160 or even 90k dollars a year. For a spoiled little shit like Tucker Max who pissed his Duke Law degree away and couldn't manage to get along with some anal retentive types for his 160-200k a year, I say fuck him and his whole story. To me law school is also about gaining a voice that can be heard loud and clear in pro-bono work. The most help I can give homeless people is a dollar at the traffic light. With a law degree I could fight to get that homeless person medical help and shelter.

[Nova]

Im going for all of those reasons

[kwais]

I didn't know what else to do, so to make some money, I argued with Jack McCoy's stray kitten about my useless humanities degree. I'm so screwed.

[moneybagsphd]

0Ls who are considering law school should read this: --LinkRemoved--

It's by Tucker Max, but it's spot on. Law school is right for a lot of people, but if one of these is your reason for going to law school, you should probably reconsider.

Six worst reasons:

1. “I like arguing and everyone says I’m good at it.”

2. “I want to be like Jack McCoy from Law & Order [or insert your favorite legal TV show character].”

3. “It’s the only way I can think of to use my humanities degree.”

4. “I want to change the world/help homeless people/rescue stray kittens/do something noble.”

5. “I don’t know what else to do.”

6. “I want to make a lot of money.”

Love the elaboration on 1.

[minnbills]

What's wrong with #4?

PI or public service in general is probably the most legit reason to go.

[GATORTIM]

This list is pretty stupid

[rayiner]

I'm going for 6 and 4. Make a reasonable living, send kids to college, then retire and sue everyone.

[GATORTIM]

he provides a link to other professions that earn $50+/hr and several of those require nearly as much (if not more) education and/or debt than the JD. Also, one of the careers is a "judge"???

[Band A Long]

I read this a day or two ago, but taking any advice from this guy would be really painful. He's just a class A douche. Prepare for mad overreaction on my part...

How can I know this? Because I’ve been you–I went to law school for the same reasons you think you should go–and I was wrong. I should never have gone to law school, and you shouldn’t either.

ll I knew was that people spoke reverently of lawyers, that everyone said that being a lawyer meant you were a success, etc, etc. Like all idiotic college kids, I wanted status without having to actually do anything to get it. Law school seemed the easiest route.

It just screams that he made a stupid mistake (possibly because he is an privileged asshole) and now is just continuing to enjoy his ability to condescend.

“I like arguing and everyone says I’m good at it.” This is really just a strawman argument. Yes, if you only "like to argue" it's probably a dumb idea to go to law school. But logical arguments and sorting through previous case law / precedents can be something someone is good at and enjoys. There's a difference between enjoying complex debate (look at how many 170+ LSAT scorers mention that they did so well because they had fun with the complex questions in the exam) and just being a loudmouth like TM.

“I want to be like Jack McCoy from Law & Order [or insert your favorite legal TV show character].” Yes, it's dumb to completely base your view of the law off of television. If you look at it from a reasonably informed perspective (i.e. use your head and realize they don't put away the bad guy in 30 minutes) they're interesting, dramatic takes on a small piece of the profession. I like L&O, and often the "good guys" don't always win — people get off on technicalities, there is a lot of reading going on, and frustration in communication between different parties. I'm personally interested in doing prosecution so maybe this is a rationalization, but it just pisses me off that the piece links to articles like they are completely damning — "It is possibly less like the real thing than any other profession depicted on television" yet the article he lazily links to actually says this:

Legal consultants like Rosenberg, or lawyers who are hired to write scripts, help to keep these shows closer to real life. Rosenberg says that his role as a technical consultant varies from show to show, writer to writer, and year to year. In many cases, he talks to the writers before they create the script,“helping writers mind reality for better drama.”When he reads scripts, Rosenberg says, he is concerned less with “pristine accuracy” and more with how realistically topics are dealt with, including balance in presenting both sides of a controversial issue. He also checks for accuracy of techni- cal language, to ensure that the script sounds good from a lawyer’s perspective. “Sometimes my advice is taken,” he says,“and sometimes not” [. . .] Among the lessons TV legal programs teach, says Corcos, are interactions among lawyers, police, and judges; interviews with witnesses; and negotiations between prosecution and defense.The best shows illustrate how cases are resolved in ways other than going to trial and, for those that go to trial, provide good models for trial practice and courtroom behavior.

So yeah, if you think you turn into a hyper-prosecutor that sends bad guys to jail in half an hour after 3 years at Cooley, you're admittedly an ass. But it's just shitty, lazy writing on TM's part.

“It’s the only way I can think of to use my humanities degree.” Another strawman. Yes, if you literally walk around with your mouth hanging open saying "I don't know what else to do with my B.A. in English!" you deserve to be berated. That doesn't mean that humanities-degree-holders don't have a lot of good skills for becoming a lawyer, especially considering that Philosophy/Theology majors score an average of a 157.4 on their LSAT.

“I want to change the world/help homeless people/rescue stray kittens/do something noble.” Same bullshit writing. If you're good at legal-style work and work for the ACLU, as a PI lawyer, LegalAid, whatever, you're helping people with your skill set an enjoying yourself.

“I don’t know what else to do.” He's right on this one. Really seems like he's grabbing at straws for the 6 reasons not to go to law school, but whatever.

“I want to make a lot of money.” If you do the math and follow TLS-style advice, you can make a lot of money.

Wow, lot of words. TLDR: Yes to anyone who asks U MAD. Just really struck me as a stupid piece. I think reasonable arguments and good advice like on TLS should determine whether you attend law school, not drool from a self-proclaimed asshole who didn't even give a shit that he was in law school...

When the day of arrival came, I was so excited I stayed home from class [. . .] Credit and Hate stayed home that day too, not because they were excited about the bullhorn, but because they are dicks. They wanted to taunt me until it arrived, knowing the anticipation was slowly killing me. (That, and none of us ever went to class anyway because law school is ridiculously easy.)

[RollTide8756]

Oh, wow, advice from Tucker Max! I'll be sure to really take this to heart.

[071816]

Oh, wow, advice from Tucker Max! I'll be sure to really take this to heart.

sweet ad hom bro

[slacker]

I still don't understand why people don't just say "(Only) Go to law school if you want to be a lawyer/practice law." It's a lot quicker/simpler.

[minnbills]

I still don't understand why people don't just say "(Only) Go to law school if you want to be a lawyer/practice law." It's a lot quicker/simpler.

Because then you have to answer "why do you want to be a lawyer?"

[chicubs88]

I don't know guys, I think Tucker makes some pretty sound arguments. Plus, I find taking career advice from someone who is famous for writing a book full of made up bullshit bro-tacular stories about doing demeaning things (which he TOTALLY did bro!) to women to be a pretty good move.

[DaftAndDirect]

Oh, wow, advice from Tucker Max! I'll be sure to really take this to heart.

sweet ad hom bro

I think it's a legit point to bring up the dude's reputation as a reason not to listen to him.

How does a guy who regularly brags about how much he skipped class get off saying things like, "I don't even know you but I can guarantee you shouldn't go to law school because I like...used to BE YOU man."

I also love how much he calls out people with PI aspirations for being naive about not knowing how difficult it is to truly help poor people while living on a low salary, and then in point #3 he acts like becoming a successful entrepreneur ain't no thang. Go get 'em junior! You're the next Tim Ferris feerrr shuurrrr.

Nothing new here from this guy. He's hilarious and I love his stories, but I refuse to take career and/or life advice from him specifically because he's a self-obsessed and over-privileged asshole. Ad hominem well deserved.

[2014]

I would be seriously impressed if you could find me a single person on these boards who wasn't going to LS in part for at least one of those reasons, in most cases probably 2-3.

[Voldemort]

I like his books a lot. Unfortunately, either his profound hatred for the law is because he had no choice to leave it (because he was fired as an SA) or because it helps him sell books through incendiary ideas. I don't think there is anything genuine about his hate for the legal profession, since he never was really a part of it. He half-assed law school, got fired as an SA, and still maintains friends (whom he says are the best and brightest people he has ever known) who are lawyers and in the legal profession. He really has no authority to speak badly about it, as ironically, he owes all his success to having gone to law school (reference his letter to his friend about almost sleeping with the partner at the firm he was working at, which got him his first ounce of fame). It is his attendance at Duke that has made him interesting, if not a cliche; he is a very bright, well educated, womanizer, who happens to write.

[beachbum]

“I like arguing and everyone says I’m good at it.” This is really just a strawman argument. Yes, if you only "like to argue" it's probably a dumb idea to go to law school. But logical arguments and sorting through previous case law / precedents can be something someone is good at and enjoys. There's a difference between enjoying complex debate (look at how many 170+ LSAT scorers mention that they did so well because they had fun with the complex questions in the exam) and just being a loudmouth like TM.

Ok, but consider his audience. Not everyone is a TLSer, and not everyone reads LSAT books for fun on weekends. TLS exists in its own bubble; there are plenty of kids out there who love to argue/are told they're good at arguing, think that's what lawyering is all about, and apply to law school. (Often this reason is combined with one or more of the other 5 reasons, but the point still stands).

“I want to be like Jack McCoy from Law & Order [or insert your favorite legal TV show character].” Yes, it's dumb to completely base your view of the law off of television. If you look at it from a reasonably informed perspective (i.e. use your head and realize they don't put away the bad guy in 30 minutes) they're interesting, dramatic takes on a small piece of the profession. I like L&O, and often the "good guys" don't always win — people get off on technicalities, there is a lot of reading going on, and frustration in communication between different parties. I'm personally interested in doing prosecution so maybe this is a rationalization, but it just pisses me off that the piece links to articles like they are completely damning — "It is possibly less like the real thing than any other profession depicted on television" yet the article he lazily links to actually says this:

Legal consultants like Rosenberg, or lawyers who are hired to write scripts, help to keep these shows closer to real life. Rosenberg says that his role as a technical consultant varies from show to show, writer to writer, and year to year. In many cases, he talks to the writers before they create the script,“helping writers mind reality for better drama.”When he reads scripts, Rosenberg says, he is concerned less with “pristine accuracy” and more with how realistically topics are dealt with, including balance in presenting both sides of a controversial issue. He also checks for accuracy of techni- cal language, to ensure that the script sounds good from a lawyer’s perspective. “Sometimes my advice is taken,” he says,“and sometimes not” [. . .] Among the lessons TV legal programs teach, says Corcos, are interactions among lawyers, police, and judges; interviews with witnesses; and negotiations between prosecution and defense.The best shows illustrate how cases are resolved in ways other than going to trial and, for those that go to trial, provide good models for trial practice and courtroom behavior.

So yeah, if you think you turn into a hyper-prosecutor that sends bad guys to jail in half an hour after 3 years at Cooley, you're admittedly an ass. But it's just shitty, lazy writing on TM's part.

Not sure what your point is here. That Law & Order is anything like a real trial? lol, no. You can nitpick Tucker's writing all you want, but this is a valid point. If TV shows ever enter into the analysis in any form, you might wanna rethink.

“It’s the only way I can think of to use my humanities degree.” Another strawman. Yes, if you literally walk around with your mouth hanging open saying "I don't know what else to do with my B.A. in English!" you deserve to be berated. That doesn't mean that humanities-degree-holders don't have a lot of good skills for becoming a lawyer, especially considering that Philosophy/Theology majors score an average of a 157.4 on their LSAT.

You seem to be conflating "might be able to do well in a legal career" with "good reason to enroll in law school." Plenty of people could make effective lawyers, particularly if we're talking about the type of work we can look forward to as junior associates in big firms. That doesn't mean this is a valid reason for entering law school, at least not in itself.

And for all the strawmen you're pointing out, you've crafted a nice little strawman here. Plenty of people, especially ITE, allow this reason to creep into their analysis. Because, shit, who wants to hire a humanities major in this economic climate? But to use this as a determination for entering a profession is pretty shitty (again, in itself); you're essentially grafting yourself to a fallback option.

“I want to change the world/help homeless people/rescue stray kittens/do something noble.” Same bullshit writing. If you're good at legal-style work and work for the ACLU, as a PI lawyer, LegalAid, whatever, you're helping people with your skill set an enjoying yourself.

Let's not pretend that PI is easy to get. And let's not pretend that the kids who think they want PI always (or even often) avoid the lure of Biglaw. Sure, there are some people who have the credentials for PI, attend a good school, get good grades, and end up doing meaningful work in a PI/gov position. But for every one of those, there's 10 kids who can't demonstrate commitment to PI, or who attend the wrong school, or who don't get the grades, or who get lured by the riches of biglaw. And again, considering Tucker's audience, I'm not sure why this point is so controversial to you.

“I don’t know what else to do.” He's right on this one. Really seems like he's grabbing at straws for the 6 reasons not to go to law school, but whatever.

The logic behind this point, which you agree with, seems pretty similar to the logic behind "I don't know what else to do with my humanities degree," no?

“I want to make a lot of money.” If you do the math and follow TLS-style advice, you can make a lot of money.

lol, yeah. You CAN make a lot of money. But, again, consider that TLS is in a bubble: not everyone can score 170+ on the LSAT, or attend a T14, or hit above median at a T14. The actual population that's going to make "a lot of money" in biglaw (or something similar) is extremely small relative to the population of fresh grads/new lawyers. And the "making a lot of money" point is further called into doubt when you add student loans into the question. Six figures sounds great until you're paying $2000+/month in loans and spending the remainder on living expenses, because you were lucky enough to get a biglaw job in NYC.

I mean, dude, you're essentially saying that this is a bad argument because it CAN be invalid. Well, no shit. But for the huge, huge majority of law students and prospective law students, it's a valid point. And, again, considering Tucker's audience, I'm not sure why you so mad. [/quote]

[JusticeHarlan]

What's wrong with #4?

PI or public service in general is probably the most legit reason to go.

Because ITE it's hard to get these jobs, and you can do public interest work without a law degree.

[minnbills]

What's wrong with #4?

PI or public service in general is probably the most legit reason to go.

Because ITE it's hard to get these jobs, and you can do public interest work without a law degree.

What would happen if no one went then?

[lisjjen]

0Ls who are considering law school should read this: --LinkRemoved--

It's by Tucker Max, but it's spot on. Law school is right for a lot of people, but if one of these is your reason for going to law school, you should probably reconsider.

Six worst reasons:

1. “I like arguing and everyone says I’m good at it.”

2. “I want to be like Jack McCoy from Law & Order [or insert your favorite legal TV show character].”

3. “It’s the only way I can think of to use my humanities degree.”

4. “I want to change the world/help homeless people/rescue stray kittens/do something noble.”

5. “I don’t know what else to do.”

6. “I want to make a lot of money.”

The only one I heard in undergrad was #1, and those people never got over a 150. The only one I've heard at law school is #6 and I get the sneaking suspicion that those people would burn out after a month in biglaw, that is assuming they could pick up a gig.

[Band A Long]

I mean, dude, you're essentially saying that this is a bad argument because it CAN be invalid. Well, no shit. But for the huge, huge majority of law students and prospective law students, it's a valid point. And, again, considering Tucker's audience, I'm not sure why you so mad.
why you so mad.
why you so mad.

Fuck.

But yeah, your points are all pretty reasonable. I submit that I was reading it mostly form inside the world where everyone has TLS-related-information available and is actively researching the profession. There are obviously a lot of people who don't do the reading and end up going exclusively because they have been repeatedly told they are good at arguing or that they've wrapped up their PoliSci degree from Shitsville U and can't wait to be Jack. I guess I'm just defensive about L&O because I think it's great that a show promotes law and the tough questions associated with it rather than The Biggest Loser et al. I think you can be inspired to attend law school without using it as a justification. I still think public interest is a valid reason regardless of the economic climate (you just have to be informed) but at the end of the day you're right about the audience, which, as noted above, makes my most of my points pretty moot.

[Samara]

With a law degree I could fight to get that homeless person medical help and shelter.

LOL Lawyers run homeless shelters and soup kitchens now?

[JusticeHarlan]

What's wrong with #4?

PI or public service in general is probably the most legit reason to go.

Because ITE it's hard to get these jobs, and you can do public interest work without a law degree.

What would happen if no one went then?

If no one went to law school, then maybe getting a clerkship for John Roberts would be a legitimate reason to go to law school; you'd be the only one applying!

But, in the real world, where tens of thousands of people enroll in law school each year, going to law school for the purpose of getting a hard to get job, when you can still work for non-profits or the government or whatever without a law degree, is still gonna be a poor reason.

That's a bit overly simplistic, to be sure, but the point is, for most people, it's spot on.