"Law School Still Worth It" - Thoughts? Forum

[cubbiesyear]

probably just another "ZOMG NO! HYS OR BUST!!" thread going to erupt...but I thought I'd post anyway.

[LawIdiot86]

probably just another "ZOMG NO! HYS OR BUST!!" thread going to erupt...but I thought I'd post anyway.

I would like to know what idiot designer thought it was necessary to reformat the way periodicals are displayed on the internet to make them mimic the look of physical magazines? Multi-column, zoom + drag, and multi-page elements are all unnecessary and make it much harder to skim an article.

[cubbiesyear]

changed link to more readable format hth

found it after I posted the first one

[dailygrind]

Moved.

[LawIdiot86]

Also, as to the statistic in the lead of this article that was referenced in the recent piece by the dean of Cooley about how the unemployment rate for lawyers is under 2% compared with 8%+ for the general public, they are mistaking correlation with causation. It isn't that law school makes you magically more employable. People who go to law school, even a TTTT, have two traits the rest of the population lacks: large amounts of debt and the willingness to do large quantities of work. Between the coercive force of debt driving law school graduates to find a job, any job, even a non-legal job and the willingness to do work as evidenced by their completion of seven years of college, it would be shocking to find they had an equivalent unemployment rate to the pool of the rest of society, which includes high school dropouts, debt-free graduates with low-cost lifestyles and people who simply value a low-impact lifestyle over pounding away in an office.

[zomginternets]

Written by a law school prof. I automatically assign it zero credibility.

[quiver]

Also, as to the statistic in the lead of this article that was referenced in the recent piece by the dean of Cooley about how the unemployment rate for lawyers is under 2% compared with 8%+ for the general public, they are mistaking correlation with causation. It isn't that law school makes you magically more employable. People who go to law school, even a TTTT, have two traits the rest of the population lacks: large amounts of debt and the willingness to do large quantities of work. Between the coercive force of debt driving law school graduates to find a job, any job, even a non-legal job and the willingness to do work as evidenced by their completion of seven years of college, it would be shocking to find they had an equivalent unemployment rate to the pool of the rest of society, which includes high school dropouts, debt-free graduates with low-cost lifestyles and people who simply value a low-impact lifestyle over pounding away in an office.

Completely agree with this but that is only the tip of the suckiness iceberg that is this article. For a law professor he has a lot of logical lapses. My favorite one is:

According to the U.S. Department of Labor, lawyers make up one of the 10 smallest professions. This finding calls into question the “too many lawyers” memo, especially when you consider the prominence of the legal process in this country.

What a giant idiot. The fact that lawyers are rarer relative to the general population in no way speaks to whether there are in fact too many of them; the total amount of lawyers relative to how many lawyers are needed is the only appropriate measure. There could be just four lawyers in the whole country, but if only one lawyer is needed there are still “too many lawyers.” I don't have enough time to discuss all of this article's inadequacies but I wanted to point out his most blatant error. I fully understand what he was trying to say, but he did a very poor job of expressing this sentiment.

[BeenDidThat]

Written by a law school prof. I automatically assign it zero credibility.

Ad hominem: the strongest form of reasoning since never.

[Grizz]

[MrPapagiorgio]

According to NALP, the proportion of 2010 graduates who accepted jobs for which a bar license was required was 68.4 percent — the lowest percentage ever measured. NALP characterizes this trend in negative terms, suggesting that weaknesses in the legal job market are forcing new lawyers to settle for being underemployed in non-legal jobs.

There may be some truth to that suggestion. But it’s also true that there are many well-paying, stable, even prestigious jobs for which the law degree is not required, but for which a law degree can provide a useful advantage in the hiring process. Lawyers have always inhabited non-legal career fields, where employers value the skills and dispositions nurtured in law school. As such, most law schools provide specific career planning services to students pursuing non-legal jobs. So the trend away from traditional legal jobs is a testament to the versatility of legal training and the favorable position lawyers often find themselves in the non-legal job market.

LOL at downplaying the fact that less than 3/4 of the jobs for law school grads in 2010 required bar passage. Also, a huge LOL at career services "providing specific career planning services to students pursuing non-legal jobs" after said students spend 3 extra years in school and incur massive, non-dischargeable debt to obtain an education that was meant to help them pursue legal jobs.

[wiseowl]

According to U.S. Department of Labor data, the unemployment rate for lawyers was 1.5 percent in 2010 — more than six times lower than the overall rate of 9.6 percent.

LOL

Since 2009, while the overall unemployment rate has remained above 9 percent, the rate for lawyers has exceeded 2 percent only once. It is true that unemployment among lawyers has increased significantly over the last few years (it was barely 1 percent in 2007), but the increase pales when compared to other occupations.

LOL

But these statistics show that even in bad times, the vast majority of law school graduates secure employment shortly after graduation. Moreover, logic dictates that employment rates increase with the passage of time, and history dictates that bad times don’t last forever.

LOL

Salary data show that the vast majority of lawyers earn relatively high salaries. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, lawyers boast the fourth highest median salary behind medical doctors, dentists and CEOs (some of whom have law degrees). While the majority of occupations have median salaries between $20,000 and $49,999, the median for lawyers in 2010 was almost $113,000. Again, this was the median — the actual midpoint — which means the majority of lawyers made six-figures.

LOL

Again, the vast majority of law school graduates find employment paying relatively high salaries — even if it’s not the type glamorized by popular culture.

According to NALP, the proportion of 2010 graduates who accepted jobs for which a bar license was required was 68.4 percent — the lowest percentage ever measured. NALP characterizes this trend in negative terms, suggesting that weaknesses in the legal job market are forcing new lawyers to settle for being underemployed in non-legal jobs.

There may be some truth to that suggestion. But it’s also true that there are many well-paying, stable, even prestigious jobs for which the law degree is not required, but for which a law degree can provide a useful advantage in the hiring process.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

According to the U.S. Department of Labor, lawyers make up one of the 10 smallest professions. This finding calls into question the “too many lawyers” memo, especially when you consider the prominence of the legal process in this country. In reality, lawyers are still relative rare — and with rarity comes demand and a wage premium.

LOLOLOLOLOL

Critics also seem to have a questionable understanding of the favorable repayment terms associated with federal student loans.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

At some schools, applicants who would have been considered “borderline” just two years ago might be shoo-ins for admission this year.

LOL



I admire the guy's chutzpah, especially since he works at a TTT whose library is named after someone named "Poos", but C'MON MAN!

[mrloblaw]

Fact: If people went in to the law school lottery with both eyes open, that guy would be out of a job.

Bias much?

[sunynp]

I would like to see any serious data that backs up tje idea that a law degree makes you more employable outside the legal field. I think that idea is a myth. Many people have said that if you have a law degree you are over qualified for most jobs and they fear you will be bored and leave. Also people wonder what is wrong with a law graduate if they can't find a law related job.

[Kimberly]

LOVE THIS!!!!!!!

[observationalist]

We responded to this yesterday in the same journal... I hope our logic makes more sense. They really do have a lot riding on things this year... Cooley now has almost 2,000 seats to fill across all of their campuses.

Here's the link: http://thecareerist.typepad.com/thecare ... dean-.html

[20130312]

But it’s also true that there are many well-paying, stable, even prestigious jobs for which the law degree is not required, but for which a law degree can provide a useful advantage in the hiring process.

No.

[Aberzombie1892]

But it’s also true that there are many well-paying, stable, even prestigious jobs for which the law degree is not required, but for which a law degree can provide a useful advantage in the hiring process.

No.

While I disagree that those jobs are well paying, those jobs do exist. They generally only require a bachelors, but they are in areas that would make you valuable after a few years of experience (procurement, grants, contracts, real estate, economic development, etc.). These jobs would generally "prefer" a law degree, so someone with one would be far more likely to get them than someone without one. At the entry level, these jobs would pay between $30-70k.