I'm not flaming but I have a legitimate question... Forum

[JoeMo]

Why is it that on these boards so many people talk about the bad economy and bad employment prospects? Is it because they're trying to minimize the competition for themselves? Or are they recent grads that are bitter about their own employment situation? What gives?

I'm assuming everyone on this board is trying to pursue law school or has recently done so... why not heed your own advice?

I'm just trying to get to the bottom of why choose a board for law school hopefuls to knock the pursuit of an education in law? I, for one, will not be dissuaded by these comments. I know what I want and I won't stop until I get there.

[bandenjamin]

I'd say it's mostly to dissuade people who don't know what they want (aside from "get paid"). Many people have seen Law as a potential "golden ticket". They get in assuming they will get big law and make it rain. They haven't looked at what the market, and more importantly the work entail. If you're not the kind of person who really enjoys legal work, it's a bad idea. If you only want to be a lawyer cause you watched Law & Order and thought McCoy was awesome, or that Vinny has the greatest job in the world, it's probably something you should reexamine. I'm thinking that's what most of the "naysayers" are getting at.

[luthersloan]

0L right? Once you get to law school you will realize that most law students are look on the dark side kind of folks, so they like to talk about all the horrors they see in the economy. As to why we go into it anyone, or remain in it, it is a combination of three things. 1) Substantial investment already, such that it does not make sense to walk away. 2) no better options, I mean really what do you except all these people with polic sci degrees to do other than law? 3) actually interested in law to to the point where they are willing to take the risk.

[freestallion]

What I am curious to know is why law in particular is singled out. I know plenty of people doing things like MPPs or MPAs or Master's who cannot get jobs, and I know they paid 40k or more (per year) in tuition costs for their degrees. In this economy you can't "expect" a job out of most career choices/options -- except perhaps medicine and engineering. I'm not sure a law degree is a worse investment than say, an MPP/MA degree from a decent but not so great school. I don't know why people aren't ragging on those types of degrees instead...

[ToTransferOrNot]

What I am curious to know is why law in particular is singled out. I know plenty of people doing things like MPPs or MPAs or Master's who cannot get jobs, and I know they paid 40k or more (per year) in tuition costs for their degrees. In this economy you can't "expect" a job out of most career choices/options -- except perhaps medicine and engineering. I'm not sure a law degree is a worse investment than say, an MPP/MA degree from a decent but not so great school. I don't know why people aren't ragging on those types of degrees instead...

I'm sure people are, you know, on the MPP/MA webpages.

Also, people who are getting a masters in the history of unicorns are going into it with their eyes open - they generally know that it's not the means to a great, lucrative career. There are still many, many people who believe law school = at least a decet job (if not models and bottles).

To the OP: You go ahead and be sure of yourself. Let us know where you are after 2L OCI. And no, not everyone on this page is bitter about our employment prospects (I happened to be one of the people who won the law school lottery) - it's just a matter of getting information out there for people. Until people stop considering going to NYLS at full cost, there's work to be done.

[JoeMo]

I'd say it's mostly to dissuade people who don't know what they want (aside from "get paid"). Many people have seen Law as a potential "golden ticket". They get in assuming they will get big law and make it rain. They haven't looked at what the market, and more importantly the work entail. If you're not the kind of person who really enjoys legal work, it's a bad idea. If you only want to be a lawyer cause you watched Law & Order and thought McCoy was awesome, or that Vinny has the greatest job in the world, it's probably something you should reexamine. I'm thinking that's what most of the "naysayers" are getting at.

This does definitely make sense. For some reason whenever I read the posts I feel attacked, like I'm stupid for making the decision to go pursue law school. But I really do not fit the description of the people that are hoping that going to law school will be their golden ticket.

[JoeMo]

What I am curious to know is why law in particular is singled out. I know plenty of people doing things like MPPs or MPAs or Master's who cannot get jobs, and I know they paid 40k or more (per year) in tuition costs for their degrees. In this economy you can't "expect" a job out of most career choices/options -- except perhaps medicine and engineering. I'm not sure a law degree is a worse investment than say, an MPP/MA degree from a decent but not so great school. I don't know why people aren't ragging on those types of degrees instead...

I also agree with this sentiment. I know someone quite well that has an MBA and MPA and can't get a job. Yet no one seems to be talking about those dismal prospects.

But I do agree with the other poster that it might perhaps be due to the fact that so many people seem to think that they're going to end up in BIGLAW with 160k associate positions out of law school like was the case 10 years ago.

I think for those of us that really have a passion for the law & academia and are willing to go to law school without the false hopes that we're guaranteed work after law school then we should do it no matter how much people are trying to dissuade us.

Plus we are not guaranteed that the economy won't turn up in a few years time and our law degrees could prove useful again.

[DoubleChecks]

What I am curious to know is why law in particular is singled out. I know plenty of people doing things like MPPs or MPAs or Master's who cannot get jobs, and I know they paid 40k or more (per year) in tuition costs for their degrees. In this economy you can't "expect" a job out of most career choices/options -- except perhaps medicine and engineering. I'm not sure a law degree is a worse investment than say, an MPP/MA degree from a decent but not so great school. I don't know why people aren't ragging on those types of degrees instead...

I also agree with this sentiment. I know someone quite well that has an MBA and MPA and can't get a job. Yet no one seems to be talking about those dismal prospects.

But I do agree with the other poster that it might perhaps be due to the fact that so many people seem to think that they're going to end up in BIGLAW with 160k associate positions out of law school like was the case 10 years ago.

I think for those of us that really have a passion for the law & academia and are willing to go to law school without the false hopes that we're guaranteed work after law school then we should do it no matter how much people are trying to dissuade us.

Plus we are not guaranteed that the economy won't turn up in a few years time and our law degrees could prove useful again.

right, not that many people fit into the bolded...like honestly, how much exposure to law have most law applicants had?

[Teoeo]

Why is it that on these boards so many people talk about the bad economy and bad employment prospects? Is it because they're trying to minimize the competition for themselves? Or are they recent grads that are bitter about their own employment situation? What gives?

I'm assuming everyone on this board is trying to pursue law school or has recently done so... why not heed your own advice?

I'm just trying to get to the bottom of why choose a board for law school hopefuls to knock the pursuit of an education in law? I, for one, will not be dissuaded by these comments. I know what I want and I won't stop until I get there.

Because of the bad economy and bad employment prospects.

[Kilpatrick]

It's to dissuade the people who think they are going to go to a TTT and get a job in international law and who say shit like "I don't need to make six figures, 80K/year is a good living." These people are going into law school with their heads completely up their asses and TLS is just trying to prepare them for reality.

But most of these people don't listen and then it's just fun to read their naive rants about how they're gonna be fine and we're all just pessimists.

[Grizz]

What I am curious to know is why law in particular is singled out. I know plenty of people doing things like MPPs or MPAs or Master's who cannot get jobs, and I know they paid 40k or more (per year) in tuition costs for their degrees. In this economy you can't "expect" a job out of most career choices/options -- except perhaps medicine and engineering. I'm not sure a law degree is a worse investment than say, an MPP/MA degree from a decent but not so great school. I don't know why people aren't ragging on those types of degrees instead...

Top LAW Schools

[Grizz]

But most of these people don't listen and then it's just fun to read their naive rants about how they're gonna be fine and we're all just pessimists.

Or elitists. Because having a job is elitism.

[esq]

'Is it because they're trying to minimize the competition for themselves?' Yes, it is to dissuade you from going to law school - nothing about the documented legal crisis plays into the realists that are projecting reality through this forum. If you choose to pony up the money, though, just make sure that it is going to support the six figure paychecks of those professors that teach at a school that gives you at least a decent shot in this economy. And then do well do well so that you can take advantage of the opportunities that your school offers.

[Hopefully2012]

A good alternative is to add MTal and some of the other naysayers as "foes" so their posts get filtered out.

[CanuckObserver]

Hm, I actually find many on TLS to be overly optimistic about going to law school. It is not until they either struck out in OCI, or are out of school a little while and either working or not working, they may adjust their expectations a bit.

I actually have a legal career I enjoy very much. I do not regret going to law school at all (I could do without the debt though!). I don't have a huge income, since I chose the small firm route in a smaller city, but all the other benefits of my job make up for it on my own scale of priorities. It really is what I want to be doing, and while I did not love law school, I can say that I really, really enjoy practicing. It is challenging, dynamic and interesting (at least where I work!).

That being said, I still caution others about going to law school unless they are sure they want to be a lawyer (though, that is hard to do as actually doing it is far different than fantasizing about it, no matter how many of your lawyer friends/dad's lawyer friends and so on have told you). I highly, highly recommend that people get some work experience after their undergrad first, where they will likely learn a little bit more about some of the environments they may work with, and even see more of what lawyers actually do through contacts, etc. I can tell you if I went straight to law school after undergrad, I probably would have geared towards a practice area that I would have despised. Plus, future employers tends to like previous work experience. I know many of my offers back in the day came from interviews where the potential employers were very enthusiastic about my work experience.

I am in Canada, where we don't have nearly as many law schools (hence less law grads) and the legal market is still relatively healthy, but even then I know people who had a hard time finding employment and/or have been laid off. I also have friends in the U.S. who were laid off from Big Law, who came out of great schools, and still are suffering the repercussions - many have had a hard time finding legal work, even doc review as it is dwindling (and paying less and less).

Further, a huge number of people leave the law within 5 years. $150-200K of debt is an awful lot to take on for something you only end up doing for a handful of years, never mind the stress of those years of law school and/or working in something you wanted to leave. Sure, some of them may go onto other careers that pay well, but many others don't. Many leave precisely because of the lifestyle (and so are hesitant to jump to another high-paying high stress lifestyle), or because, heck, they just do not like practicing law after all! Despite the propaganda, a JD is not THAT desirable outside of well, practicing law. So, I again highly discourage one going unless they (are reasonably certain based on some actual life experience) that want to practice law. If you are going as you don't want to graduate with just a BA, or because you want "exit opportunities", or because you have some fantasy about finding a niche practice saving whales from persecution, I firmly recommend you wait a little longer and gain more life and work experience before going the law school route. Unless maybe someone is paying for you to go, for free, with no strings attached and you will have little lost opportunity costs. Few people are in that position, though.

[094320]

..

[JoeMo]

Hm, I actually find many on TLS to be overly optimistic about going to law school. It is not until they either struck out in OCI, or are out of school a little while and either working or not working, they may adjust their expectations a bit.

I actually have a legal career I enjoy very much. I do not regret going to law school at all (I could do without the debt though!). I don't have a huge income, since I chose the small firm route in a smaller city, but all the other benefits of my job make up for it on my own scale of priorities. It really is what I want to be doing, and while I did not love law school, I can say that I really, really enjoy practicing. It is challenging, dynamic and interesting (at least where I work!).

That being said, I still caution others about going to law school unless they are sure they want to be a lawyer (though, that is hard to do as actually doing it is far different than fantasizing about it, no matter how many of your lawyer friends/dad's lawyer friends and so on have told you). I highly, highly recommend that people get some work experience after their undergrad first, where they will likely learn a little bit more about some of the environments they may work with, and even see more of what lawyers actually do through contacts, etc. I can tell you if I went straight to law school after undergrad, I probably would have geared towards a practice area that I would have despised. Plus, future employers tends to like previous work experience. I know many of my offers back in the day came from interviews where the potential employers were very enthusiastic about my work experience.

I am in Canada, where we don't have nearly as many law schools (hence less law grads) and the legal market is still relatively healthy, but even then I know people who had a hard time finding employment and/or have been laid off. I also have friends in the U.S. who were laid off from Big Law, who came out of great schools, and still are suffering the repercussions - many have had a hard time finding legal work, even doc review as it is dwindling (and paying less and less).

Further, a huge number of people leave the law within 5 years. $150-200K of debt is an awful lot to take on for something you only end up doing for a handful of years, never mind the stress of those years of law school and/or working in something you wanted to leave. Sure, some of them may go onto other careers that pay well, but many others don't. Many leave precisely because of the lifestyle (and so are hesitant to jump to another high-paying high stress lifestyle), or because, heck, they just do not like practicing law after all! Despite the propaganda, a JD is not THAT desirable outside of well, practicing law. So, I again highly discourage one going unless they (are reasonably certain based on some actual life experience) that want to practice law. If you are going as you don't want to graduate with just a BA, or because you want "exit opportunities", or because you have some fantasy about finding a niche practice saving whales from persecution, I firmly recommend you wait a little longer and gain more life and work experience before going the law school route. Unless maybe someone is paying for you to go, for free, with no strings attached and you will have little lost opportunity costs. Few people are in that position, though.

Thanks for your post. It was very insightful. I guess I'm not at that point since I have worked in Corporate America for a few years now and have thought about the law school thing for quite some time. I just never saw so much negativity toward a JD before but now it makes sense after I read where some of that thinking might be coming from.

[rayiner]

Why is it that on these boards so many people talk about the bad economy and bad employment prospects? Is it because they're trying to minimize the competition for themselves? Or are they recent grads that are bitter about their own employment situation? What gives?

I'm assuming everyone on this board is trying to pursue law school or has recently done so... why not heed your own advice?

I'm just trying to get to the bottom of why choose a board for law school hopefuls to knock the pursuit of an education in law? I, for one, will not be dissuaded by these comments. I know what I want and I won't stop until I get there.

There are a lot of law students on here who are rapidly realizing how bad the employment prospects really are now that they're trying to find jobs. There are people on here going to good schools with decent employment prospects who know the risk they're taking on. There are people here who have jobs but who have friends who don't. There are people here who wanted to go to LS, then decided against it but stick around for the community.

The comments aren't there to dissuade you. They're there to educate you about the facts. If you're saying you won't listen and take account of these facts, then you don't have the right mindset to make a good lawyer.

[JoeMo]

Why is it that on these boards so many people talk about the bad economy and bad employment prospects? Is it because they're trying to minimize the competition for themselves? Or are they recent grads that are bitter about their own employment situation? What gives?

I'm assuming everyone on this board is trying to pursue law school or has recently done so... why not heed your own advice?

I'm just trying to get to the bottom of why choose a board for law school hopefuls to knock the pursuit of an education in law? I, for one, will not be dissuaded by these comments. I know what I want and I won't stop until I get there.

There are a lot of law students on here who are rapidly realizing how bad the employment prospects really are now that they're trying to find jobs. There are people on here going to good schools with decent employment prospects who know the risk they're taking on. There are people here who have jobs but who have friends who don't. There are people here who wanted to go to LS, then decided against it but stick around for the community.

The comments aren't there to dissuade you. They're there to educate you about the facts. If you're saying you won't listen and take account of these facts, then you don't have the right mindset to make a good lawyer.

ouTou might want to double check what I wrote. I never said I was unaware or refused to take account of these facts. I am simply saying that for me the decision to go to law school is about much more than job prospects. I've enjoyed a corporate career thus far and would probably be fine going back to that after LS. But I would feel like I would always question my decision not to attend because I can't remember anything else I've wanted for as long or as intensely. But I do get that some people make the decision looking for a golden ticket and I'm guessing from previous posts that is where the comments are aimed.

[TooOld4This]

You might want to double check what I wrote. I never said I was unaware or refused to take account of these facts. I am simply saying that for me the decision to go to law school is about much more than job prospects. I've enjoyed a corporate career thus far and would probably be fine going back to that after LS. But I would feel like I would always question my decision not to attend because I can't remember anything else I've wanted for as long or as intensely. But I do get that some people make the decision looking for a golden ticket and I'm guessing from previous posts that is where the comments are aimed.

Then it sounds like you come from money, in which case, I don't see the point of your post.

A J.D. is a professional degree. If you have a love of "law & academia" then you can read case books and listen to plenty of free lectures to satisfy your intellectual yearnings. Or you can go to HYS -- in which case your post makes no sense. The schools that give you a real shot at being a legal academic will also come as close as you can get to guaranteeing you a job when you get out.

If you:

a) Have the money to burn on an flight of fancy OR
b) Have gotten into a school that gives you a real shot at academia

then all of the pessimism does apply to you.

What all the pessimism boils down to is if

1. you aren't getting a full-ride that is not dependent upon maintaining a particular rank, or
2. you aren't going to a T-14 with a substantial scholarship, or
3. you aren't going to HYS, or
4. you aren't going to the best school in your geographic region with a low cost of attendance or good scholarship,

then you should rethink going to law school. Warm and fuzzy feelings don't pay off loans. They don't pay the rent. They usually don't last past your first semester. Thinking you have them doesn't make you different or make all the doom and gloom not apply to you. Having a realistic plan about what law school will do to your bottom line means you are ready to attend.

If you feel "attacked" by the realities of the job market, then you probably still have your head in the sand.

[IAFG]

ouTou might want to double check what I wrote. I never said I was unaware or refused to take account of these facts. I am simply saying that for me the decision to go to law school is about much more than job prospects. I've enjoyed a corporate career thus far and would probably be fine going back to that after LS. But I would feel like I would always question my decision not to attend because I can't remember anything else I've wanted for as long or as intensely. But I do get that some people make the decision looking for a golden ticket and I'm guessing from previous posts that is where the comments are aimed.

But why do you want to do it so intensely? What is your image of legal work? Do you have the credentials to get into a law school that will get you into that work, or are you willing to put in the work on the LSAT to make sure you do (if a good LSAT score would even make that possible)?

Many people go into law school either not thinking about the work at all (just wanting to "learn to think like a lawyer" or "study the law" which is fine... for three years, but then what?) or they have just a mistaken idea about what the work will be like (believe they'll be in court arguing in front of a jury, believe they'll be brokering deals between international corporations, whatever else TV and movies lead them to believe practice is like).

I hear so many people on the boards saying they "just want to be a lawyer" or "love the law" but 95% of them can't articulate an answer as to what that really means.

[SisterRayVU]

ouTou might want to double check what I wrote. I never said I was unaware or refused to take account of these facts. I am simply saying that for me the decision to go to law school is about much more than job prospects. I've enjoyed a corporate career thus far and would probably be fine going back to that after LS. But I would feel like I would always question my decision not to attend because I can't remember anything else I've wanted for as long or as intensely. But I do get that some people make the decision looking for a golden ticket and I'm guessing from previous posts that is where the comments are aimed.

I hear so many people on the boards saying they "just want to be a lawyer" or "love the law" but 95% of them can't articulate an answer as to what that really means.

I want to do paper work in a high pressure situation for upwards of 60 hours a week while being compensated in the Cravath lockstep system starting at 160k in a major metropolitan city.

Also, preftigious appearance.

[Curious1]

The problem that OP has is that many people on this board dissuade people from even attending HYS. There are many people like that who probably DID strike out and are bitter--but mostly the advice is T5 sticker/T6-14 $$$ or bust, which is valid and legitimate.

I went to the LSAC forum today and walked by the Cooley table. I really wanted to ask "what percentage of your graduates are unemployed?" But the reps were sweet old ladies so I didn't.

[JoeMo]

The problem that OP has is that many people on this board dissuade people from even attending HYS. There are many people like that who probably DID strike out and are bitter--but mostly the advice is T5 sticker/T6-14 $$$ or bust, which is valid and legitimate.

I went to the LSAC forum today and walked by the Cooley table. I really wanted to ask "what percentage of your graduates are unemployed?" But the reps were sweet old ladies so I didn't.

I wanted to go flame at the Cooley table too but also didn't.

And you're right. My problem is precisely that everyone seems to think HYS or bust. Free-ride or bust. But what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. Not that it's the case for me but what if I were an environmentalist that always worked hard for the environment but lacked the credentials and wanted to go to Univ. of VT? Apparently, because those aren't lucrative jobs and the school isn't HYS then by that reasoning I should not attend. But they have one of the best environmental law programs. What if what I really wanted was to practice in Hawaii where there is only one school? I know I wouldn't be making a NYC worthy salary but that might really make me happy. My problem is precisely with the mentality that if you think outside of the HYS mentality then you're no good and should not be going to law school.

[TooOld4This]

And you're right. My problem is precisely that everyone seems to think HYS or bust. Free-ride or bust. But what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. Not that it's the case for me but what if I were an environmentalist that always worked hard for the environment but lacked the credentials and wanted to go to Univ. of VT? Apparently, because those aren't lucrative jobs and the school isn't HYS then by that reasoning I should not attend. But they have one of the best environmental law programs. What if what I really wanted was to practice in Hawaii where there is only one school? I know I wouldn't be making a NYC worthy salary but that might really make me happy. My problem is precisely with the mentality that if you think outside of the HYS mentality then you're no good and should not be going to law school.

You are misreading the critiques.

All of them boil down to one simple principle: does the cost of attendance line up with job prospects?

Specialty rankings mean nothing. They are signals to academics that they will be around like minded individuals. If you wanted to work in Des Moines doing environmental work and you have an environmental background, you would be much better off going to the University of Iowa than VT.

If you want to work in Hawaii, then yes, going to school locally makes sense. However, if you are paying $180,000 to attend and the school only places about 30% of its graduates in jobs that make more than $50,000, then it still does not make sense to go.

It is not about full ride or bust or HYS or bust. It is about sitting down with hard numbers, figuring out opportunity cost, loan payments, real data about job placement (which means reading the fine print about how many students actually responded to the survey, and how many of those actually gave salary data, and how many of those are employed by the law school itself) and seeing if the numbers work. If they don't work, they don't work.