Employment data at T14 Forum

[senorhosh]

When it comes down to employment data, do t14 schools fudge their data too?

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/statistics/
I mean, it looks pretty optimistic (I know NU doesn't represent T14, given that they're one of the best schools for employment among the t14) But still, ~64% make 6 figures? Only 25% make less than 60k or are unemployed (I mean, lets face it.. if true, these probably represent graduates at the bottom of the class)

Given the fact that law school is not a guarantee, 64% making 6 figures looks pretty good. That includes at least 14% under the class rank median...

But are these numbers real? For TTT schools, they post averages, medians, etc. that can potentially misrepresent the numbers. However, on the NU site, it gives actual numbers, where they work, how much they make, etc.

So:
How accurate are these numbers? And what am I missing when I say these numbers look pretty good?

[bk1]

Those stats are still basically a coinflip.

[rayiner]

When it comes down to employment data, do t14 schools fudge their data too?

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/statistics/
I mean, it looks pretty optimistic (I know NU doesn't represent T14, given that they're one of the best schools for employment among the t14) But still, ~64% make 6 figures? Only 25% make less than 60k or are unemployed (I mean, lets face it.. if true, these probably represent graduates at the bottom of the class)

Given the fact that law school is not a guarantee, 64% making 6 figures looks pretty good. That includes at least 14% under the class rank median...

But are these numbers real? For TTT schools, they post averages, medians, etc. that can potentially misrepresent the numbers. However, on the NU site, it gives actual numbers, where they work, how much they make, etc.

So:
How accurate are these numbers? And what am I missing when I say these numbers look pretty good?

I think NU deserves a lot of kudos for posting this data. They give a precise clerkship breakdown, show a high salary reporting rate, and give the salary histogram. I think the data is pretty trustworthy, because it makes no sense to open themselves up to liability for outright lying about the reports when they could just hide it behind reporting medians.

That said, the data is not completely rosey. While 57% (of the 285 graduates) were earning six figures and 9% were doing a federal clerkship, about 7% were outright unemployed, and 8% were doing part-time or temporary work.

Also, this data doesn't fully reflect ITE. The 57% figure reflects all of the rescinded offers for 2010 and no-offers from summer 2009, but doesn't reflect the OCI carnage of summer 2009. C/O 2010's OCI happened in 2008 and while it was down somewhat because of Lehman, the crash didn't really happen until that was over. Where the stats probably fully reflect ITE is in the unemployed and part-time figures. Lots of people actually do want to go into government or public interest, and since those folks hire during 3L, ITE was in full force for those C/O 2010 people seeking those positions.

I'd expect the stats for C/O 2012 and forward to be both better and worse. I think the biglaw %-age will go down. Word is that about 60% of folks got a 2L SA, and once you take out the clerkship and Fed Honors folks that'll be like 45-50% of folks making six-figures. On the other hand, I think the unemployed figure will go down. People in our class had much more notice of ITE than C/O 2010 and can look for small firms, etc. They're not getting hammered by no-offers and rescinded offers.

Also note NU has broken-down part-time stats for the last several years: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/career/ ... chive.html

Big jump from ~4% pre-ITE to 8% ITE.

[lawgod]

Only 25% make less than 60k or are unemployed (I mean, lets face it.. if true, these probably represent graduates at the bottom of the class)

Bottom of the class? That's 1 in 4 people. Look to your right, look to your left, look in front of you- one of you will be a quarter million in debt and lucky to get a job paying 60k and still working 2200 billable.

And this NY Times guy keeps railing on John Marshall and company. The expose is not TTTT, the expose is T14.

[Tiago Splitter]

Clerkships account for 3/4 of the employed students making under 60K, unless you think a lot of those 30 clerks didn't report salaries.

[rayiner]

Only 25% make less than 60k or are unemployed (I mean, lets face it.. if true, these probably represent graduates at the bottom of the class)

Bottom of the class? That's 1 in 4 people. Look to your right, look to your left, look in front of you- one of you will be a quarter million in debt and lucky to get a job paying 60k and still working 2200 billable.

And this NY Times guy keeps railing on John Marshall and company. The expose is not TTTT, the expose is T14.

A decent chunk of the folks making $40-$60k, if you look at the chart, are doing federal clerkships or public interest. The former can get big-law (and probably got an SA), and the latter isn't billing 2,200 hours. Plus, someone working in public interest for $60k with, say, $200k of loans gets about $10k/year from NU to cover half their IBR payment + 75% of their unpaid interest. Not quite expose-worthy.

The 16% of folks who are unemployed or working part-time might be expose-worthy, though.