NLJ 250 firms Chart (2010) Forum

sparty99 · Post by **sparty99** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:27 pm

Is there a NLJ 250 chart for 2010? The one that shows the placement by schools in each legal market? I keep seeing the 2008 one and was wondering if there is an updated chart?

timmah427 · Post by **timmah427** » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:54 pm

adt231 · Post by **adt231** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:32 pm

interested in this as well. All I can seem to find is last year's data. Am I just a dunce when it comes to searching or is it not out yet?

youarereadingthis · Post by **youarereadingthis** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:45 pm

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162

Scroll down.

adt231 · Post by **adt231** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:45 pm

i found this: http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/20 ... tatistics/

i think i remember seeing a discussion on this somewhere else in these forums but I cannot find it

adt231 · Post by **adt231** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:47 pm

youarereadingthis wrote:http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 2483173162

Scroll down.

you beat me to it!

bk1 · Post by **bk1** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:52 pm

If I am correct, the graph you are referring to was published in 2008 but it is based on the graduating class of 2005 data.

Article: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 0005508582
Graph: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf

I'm curious as to why you feel that this chart isn't enough. While yes the economy has changed, but in a given market the schools are still looked at in the same hierarchy today that they were 5-6 years ago. This graph is also a decent marker of regionality (it groups schools by the market they primarily place into and then puts a percentage based on how much of the graduating class finds work in the state where the school is located) and I doubt that that has changed significantly in the past 5-6 years either.

tea_drinker · Post by **tea_drinker** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:00 pm

bk187 wrote:If I am correct, the graph you are referring to was published in 2008 but it is based on the graduating class of 2005 data.

Article: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 0005508582
Graph: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf

I'm curious as to why you feel that this chart isn't enough. While yes the economy has changed, but in a given market the schools are still looked at in the same hierarchy today that they were 5-6 years ago. This graph is also a decent marker of regionality (it groups schools by the market they primarily place into and then puts a percentage based on how much of the graduating class finds work in the state where the school is located) and I doubt that that has changed significantly in the past 5-6 years either.

This is awesome, bk. Thanks man.

sparty99 · Post by **sparty99** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:06 pm

bk187 wrote:If I am correct, the graph you are referring to was published in 2008 but it is based on the graduating class of 2005 data.

Article: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 0005508582
Graph: http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/composite.pdf

I'm curious as to why you feel that this chart isn't enough. While yes the economy has changed, but in a given market the schools are still looked at in the same hierarchy today that they were 5-6 years ago. This graph is also a decent marker of regionality (it groups schools by the market they primarily place into and then puts a percentage based on how much of the graduating class finds work in the state where the school is located) and I doubt that that has changed significantly in the past 5-6 years either.

I never stated whether I thought the chart was enough. I simply wanted to see if there was a more recent chart. The 2008 chart is interesting, but seeing additional years, especially in the current job market would be invaluable.

bk1 · Post by **bk1** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:10 pm

sparty99 wrote:I never stated whether I thought the chart was enough. I simply wanted to see if there was a more recent chart. The 2008 chart is interesting, but seeing additional years, especially in the current job market would be invaluable.

Invaluable? My point was that the value is minimal.

Unless the point is to see how much of the schools ranked 51-200 get biglaw and then that is really pointless.

Logic STUD · Post by **Logic STUD** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:15 pm

sparty99 wrote:Is there a NLJ 250 chart for 2010? The one that shows the placement by schools in each legal market? I keep seeing the 2008 one and was wondering if there is an updated chart?

Remember that there's a lot of great law job that are not counted in the NLJ 250, the chart is widely considered not very useful.

bk1 · Post by **bk1** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:34 pm

Logic STUD wrote:Remember that there's a lot of great law job that are not counted in the NLJ 250, the chart is widely considered not very useful.

There are great jobs not in the NLJ250, the problem is that the number of non-NLJ250 jobs that can help someone pay down $200,000+ in debt is minimal so using the NLJ250 is about the best approximation we get (once clerkships are factored in). It is also helpful in ranking schools against each other and is another source of information.

I would say, and I think the TLS consensus is with me on this one, that the charts are useful if one understands the vagaries that exist year to year.

sparty99 · Post by **sparty99** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:03 pm

bk187 wrote:
sparty99 wrote:I never stated whether I thought the chart was enough. I simply wanted to see if there was a more recent chart. The 2008 chart is interesting, but seeing additional years, especially in the current job market would be invaluable.
Invaluable? My point was that the value is minimal.

Unless the point is to see how much of the schools ranked 51-200 get biglaw and then that is really pointless.

I'm considering paying $200,000 for a degree. If I'm going to make this decision, I want to have ALL the information that I can gather. The placement chart has shown that if I go to some of the schools that interest me, the likelihood of a Big Law job is slim unless I am in the top 10%. I can also compare their placement with other peer schools in the same city. Also seeing the attrition/drop out rate is interesting. I've seen this chart for two different years. One of the years showed a school having an increase in Big Law placement by 5%. The market dynamics have changed, seeing whether or not the placement has changed by having an updated chart would be invaluable because I could determine if it has stayed static or not.

Seeing how 51-200 places in biglaw is also not pointless. I could be interested in BigLaw, Rutgers, and Cardozo. Based on the chart, Rutgers PT program might be a better option than Cardozo at full price.

bk1 · Post by **bk1** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:06 pm

sparty99 wrote:I'm considering paying $200,000 for a degree. If I'm going to make this decision, I want to have ALL the information that I can gather. The placement chart has shown that if I go to some of the schools that interest me, the likelihood of a Big Law job is slim unless I am in the top 10%. I can also compare their placement with other peer schools in the same city. Also seeing the attrition/drop out rate is interesting. I've seen this chart for two different years. One of the years showed a school having an increase in Big Law placement by 5%. The market dynamics have changed, seeing whether or not the placement has changed by having an updated chart would be invaluable because I could determine if it has stayed static or not.

Seeing how 51-200 places in biglaw is also not pointless. I could be interested in BigLaw, Rutgers, and Cardozo. Based on the chart, Rutgers PT program might be a better option than Cardozo at full price.

You basically made my point for me. It is foolish to go to the schools ranked 51-200 (heck it is probably foolish to go to any school outside of the T12 or T18 or whatever) and be interested in biglaw.

At the point that you are looking at attrition/drop out rate, that sort of thing is more dependent on you than the school.

sparty99 · Post by **sparty99** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:23 pm

bk187 wrote:
sparty99 wrote:I'm considering paying $200,000 for a degree. If I'm going to make this decision, I want to have ALL the information that I can gather. The placement chart has shown that if I go to some of the schools that interest me, the likelihood of a Big Law job is slim unless I am in the top 10%. I can also compare their placement with other peer schools in the same city. Also seeing the attrition/drop out rate is interesting. I've seen this chart for two different years. One of the years showed a school having an increase in Big Law placement by 5%. The market dynamics have changed, seeing whether or not the placement has changed by having an updated chart would be invaluable because I could determine if it has stayed static or not.

Seeing how 51-200 places in biglaw is also not pointless. I could be interested in BigLaw, Rutgers, and Cardozo. Based on the chart, Rutgers PT program might be a better option than Cardozo at full price.
You basically made my point for me. It is foolish to go to the schools ranked 51-200 (heck it is probably foolish to go to any school outside of the T12 or T18 or whatever) and be interested in biglaw.

At the point that you are looking at attrition/drop out rate, that sort of thing is more dependent on you than the school.

See. People like you are annoying. It is either all or nothing. 1) The point of law school is not to get a job in Big Law. 2) Some people might have dreams of Big Law, but also want to become a lawyer or obtain an advanced degree. It is okay to be interested in Big Law, just understand that at schools in 51-200, it is slim. But this also does not mean $80,000 positions aren't available which might not be Big Law...3) Is it foolish to try to get into Big Law and go to SMU or Houston? They both have PT programs and place well in their cities. Yes, those jobs are tough, but you will at least minimize your debt ($60,000) versus being $200,000 in debt coming out of Michigan...

09042014 · Post by **09042014** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:28 pm

sparty99 wrote:
bk187 wrote:
sparty99 wrote:I'm considering paying $200,000 for a degree. If I'm going to make this decision, I want to have ALL the information that I can gather. The placement chart has shown that if I go to some of the schools that interest me, the likelihood of a Big Law job is slim unless I am in the top 10%. I can also compare their placement with other peer schools in the same city. Also seeing the attrition/drop out rate is interesting. I've seen this chart for two different years. One of the years showed a school having an increase in Big Law placement by 5%. The market dynamics have changed, seeing whether or not the placement has changed by having an updated chart would be invaluable because I could determine if it has stayed static or not.

Seeing how 51-200 places in biglaw is also not pointless. I could be interested in BigLaw, Rutgers, and Cardozo. Based on the chart, Rutgers PT program might be a better option than Cardozo at full price.
You basically made my point for me. It is foolish to go to the schools ranked 51-200 (heck it is probably foolish to go to any school outside of the T12 or T18 or whatever) and be interested in biglaw.

At the point that you are looking at attrition/drop out rate, that sort of thing is more dependent on you than the school.
See. People like you are annoying. It is either all or nothing. 1) The point of law school is not to get a job in Big Law. 2) Some people might have dreams of Big Law, but also want to become a lawyer or obtain an advanced degree. It is okay to be interested in Big Law, just understand that at schools in 51-200, it is slim. But this also does not mean $80,000 positions aren't available which might not be Big Law...3) Is it foolish to try to get into Big Law and go to SMU or Houston? They both have PT programs and place well in their cities. Yes, those jobs are tough, but you will at least minimize your debt ($60,000) versus being $200,000 in debt coming out of Michigan...

SMU charges 30K/year for part time. That's not much cheaper than Michigan.

bk1 · Post by **bk1** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:31 pm

sparty99 wrote:See. People like you are annoying. It is either all or nothing. 1) The point of law school is not to get a job in Big Law. 2) Some people might have dreams of Big Law, but also want to become a lawyer or obtain an advanced degree. It is okay to be interested in Big Law, just understand that at schools in 51-200, it is slim. But this also does not mean $80,000 positions aren't available which might not be Big Law...3) Is it foolish to try to get into Big Law and go to SMU or Houston? They both have PT programs and place well in their cities. Yes, those jobs are tough, but you will at least minimize your debt ($60,000) versus being $200,000 in debt coming out of Michigan...

It's not foolish to try for biglaw out of SMU (which I would classify as only slightly below the other top regional schools in terms of placement and definitely above its peers in the USNWR rankings) or any school for that matter. At places like SMU/GW/WUSTL/Fordham/etc you have a small, but possible shot. The point is that it is still unlikely. You are still significantly more likely to miss biglaw than hit. It gets even worse when you drop down to schools that pretty much require you to get top 5% or 10%.

At that point, you really shouldn't be choosing schools based on biglaw percentage (which is why I say it is irrelevant) because it is so exceedingly rare that it doesn't matter whether school A places 5% into biglaw school B places 8% into biglaw, they are the same for all intents and purposes. Once you are looking at such meager differences, choose schools based on other things like cost/location and, to a lesser extent, feel/preference.

sparty99 · Post by **sparty99** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:38 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
sparty99 wrote:
bk187 wrote:
sparty99 wrote:I'm considering paying $200,000 for a degree. If I'm going to make this decision, I want to have ALL the information that I can gather. The placement chart has shown that if I go to some of the schools that interest me, the likelihood of a Big Law job is slim unless I am in the top 10%. I can also compare their placement with other peer schools in the same city. Also seeing the attrition/drop out rate is interesting. I've seen this chart for two different years. One of the years showed a school having an increase in Big Law placement by 5%. The market dynamics have changed, seeing whether or not the placement has changed by having an updated chart would be invaluable because I could determine if it has stayed static or not.

Seeing how 51-200 places in biglaw is also not pointless. I could be interested in BigLaw, Rutgers, and Cardozo. Based on the chart, Rutgers PT program might be a better option than Cardozo at full price.
You basically made my point for me. It is foolish to go to the schools ranked 51-200 (heck it is probably foolish to go to any school outside of the T12 or T18 or whatever) and be interested in biglaw.

At the point that you are looking at attrition/drop out rate, that sort of thing is more dependent on you than the school.
See. People like you are annoying. It is either all or nothing. 1) The point of law school is not to get a job in Big Law. 2) Some people might have dreams of Big Law, but also want to become a lawyer or obtain an advanced degree. It is okay to be interested in Big Law, just understand that at schools in 51-200, it is slim. But this also does not mean $80,000 positions aren't available which might not be Big Law...3) Is it foolish to try to get into Big Law and go to SMU or Houston? They both have PT programs and place well in their cities. Yes, those jobs are tough, but you will at least minimize your debt ($60,000) versus being $200,000 in debt coming out of Michigan...
SMU charges 30K/year for part time. That's not much cheaper than Michigan.

If you have a job and are able to cash flow your legal education it is....A $65,000 - $70,000 salary can have you graduating debt free or probably less than $20,000 in debt. A law degree (from a solid instution like SMU) and no debt sounds much better than a law degree, no job, $200,000 in debt. I'm not saying SMU is better or worse than Michigan, but I am saying that a school like that can get you into big law just as michigan can. Yes, true. It is much tougher at SMU to achieve that.

09042014 · Post by **09042014** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:43 pm

sparty99 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
sparty99 wrote:
bk187 wrote:
You basically made my point for me. It is foolish to go to the schools ranked 51-200 (heck it is probably foolish to go to any school outside of the T12 or T18 or whatever) and be interested in biglaw.

At the point that you are looking at attrition/drop out rate, that sort of thing is more dependent on you than the school.
See. People like you are annoying. It is either all or nothing. 1) The point of law school is not to get a job in Big Law. 2) Some people might have dreams of Big Law, but also want to become a lawyer or obtain an advanced degree. It is okay to be interested in Big Law, just understand that at schools in 51-200, it is slim. But this also does not mean $80,000 positions aren't available which might not be Big Law...3) Is it foolish to try to get into Big Law and go to SMU or Houston? They both have PT programs and place well in their cities. Yes, those jobs are tough, but you will at least minimize your debt ($60,000) versus being $200,000 in debt coming out of Michigan...
SMU charges 30K/year for part time. That's not much cheaper than Michigan.
If you have a job and are able to cash flow your legal education it is....A $65,000 - $70,000 salary can have you graduating debt free or probably less than $20,000 in debt. A law degree (from a solid instution like SMU) and no debt sounds much better than a law degree, no job, $200,000 in debt. I'm not saying SMU is better or worse than Michigan, but I am saying that a school like that can get you into big law just as michigan can. Yes, true. It is much tougher at SMU to achieve that.

Comparing someone who has a good paying job in a city with a good part time program to someone paying sticker elsewhere isn't a fair comparison. It's a special case.

If you have that special case then by all means take SMU, but don't claim that your case means SMU is a good choice generally.

And realistically with a 70K a year job going to SMU part time is probably a waste of money. Odds are they'll emerge with a job that pays less, and they'll have squandered 120K in the process.

sparty99 · Post by **sparty99** » Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:07 pm

I'm not making any claim that SMU is generally the better choice. People forget, there's many ways to get a law degree. Going part time is not a special case. Many of the students in part time programs probably have jobs that pay $40-65k based on their years of experience. The comparison of a PT program to paying sticker doesn't need to be fair. It's just something that can be considered when deciding which law school is right for the law applicant. Or if law is the right choice period.

zonto · Post by **zonto** » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:50 pm

Sorry. You're wrong. On TLS there is only one way: douchebaggery.

predent/prelaw · Post by **predent/prelaw** » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:24 am

zonto wrote:Sorry. You're wrong. On TLS there is only one way: douchebaggery.

Sandro · Post by **Sandro** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:48 pm

zonto wrote:Sorry. You're wrong. On TLS there is only one way: douchebaggery.

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