T14 Forum

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[2014]

There is no shame in at least applying to the T14 US schools, I assume you will get plenty of fee waivers as well. Honestly I don't think it will affect you as much as you think. It obviously pretty much negates your military service as a soft, but your GPA and LSAT are still extremely strong.

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[Eugenie Danglars]

I would get the strong one and have a certified translation done, then mail it all into LSAC. I think that's what I'm going to do.

[haus]

deja vu?

I think that you are overreacting.

It is not a dishonorable discharge. Given that it was not an honorable, you will be asked about it, but as long as you do not attempt to hide/coverup I doubt that it would be an unsurmountable obstacle.

Good LOR would likely by an added bonus.

[03121202698008]

OP, was this discharge the result of an Article 15? If so, you must disclose. Also, some apps say were you "arrested". In the military, your commander or another officer can arrest you without the assistance of the police. Were and restrictions placed on your liberty? Confined to base? If so, you were arrested. If the app says investigated...you must definitely disclose.

[nealric]

As long as it is fully disclosed, I don't think it will hurt you all that much. Law schools are mostly worried about character + fitness for the bar- as long as you disclose I doubt what you describe will be a problem.

[thalassocrat]

As long as it is fully disclosed, I don't think it will hurt you all that much. Law schools are mostly worried about character + fitness for the bar- as long as you disclose I doubt what you describe will be a problem.

+1 OP, I PMed you with some more specific advice (I was in a vaguely sort of similar situation last year), but really the best thing to do is disclose disclose disclose. I doubt you'll have to run away to Canada unless you really want to.

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[03121202698008]

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[OIF2LAW]

Hope you had a "juicy" time!

[shastaca]

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[Voodoo94]

I think this is much ado about nothing.

From my experience, the only thing you have to disclose on an application (for school admission) is the type/character of your discharge (e.g. General under Honorable Conditions). Candidly, I wouldn't go into any more detail than that because I doubt any further elaboration is required. It's not like you have to produce a DD-214 to the admissions Committee.

I'm seeing a lot of advice here from "barracks lawyers." Fact: a lot of the old myths about a General Discharge hurting you is a vestige from an earlier era when military service was a common experience for American men - to include Deans and Professors. That era ended about 20 years ago as the WWII generation retired from public life. The probability that anyone looking at your application served in uniform is very small. The probability that they know the difference between a "General" and an "Honorable" discharge is even smaller.

Character and Fitness is the first time you will need to produce a DD-214. I think you can easily explain your situation at that time.

I seriously doubt anyone will try to contact your Company or Battalion Commanders at the time of the infraction. It's hard to locate these folks and their records/memory of this incident will be very hazy at best. The fact that you did not receive an Article 15 works highly in your favor.

Finally, I would be hard pressed to categorize your restriction to post as an "arrest." Self-reporting a fairly common informal disciplinary tool (especially OCONUS) opens an unnecessary can of worms and will cause myriad headaches in the future that you will most certainly regret.

[bosox31]

There has got to be more to this story. They kicked you out of the army for getting a juicy girl?

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[ResolutePear]

Yes, USFK recently (2005) instituted a new policy that treats "getting a juicy girl" as = to prostitution, punished with a maximum sentence of BCD and 1 year confinement.

Usually, it's not enforced; however, I had the bad luck of being a PL with a very conservative Christian fundamentalist CO. I wrote up a private for persistent lateness, and he retaliated by videotaping me getting a juicy girl and giving it to the CO, who tried to send me to a Court Martial. My Battalion CO and XO tried to squash it, but I guess my CO had gotten too many people involved by that time (including CID). CID "investigated" me for 5 months and came up with a few witness statements of limited usefulness.

I was recommended for an OTH but agreed to resign if the chain of command recommended an "Honorable." The BN and BDE CO's strong-armed my CO into going along with that (I have the documents from all three in my possession recommending "honorable"). But somewhere above the BDE level, someone decided to slap me with a General.

I don't see any problem with you getting into law school. I think what you should really be asking is if this will have any effect on your with the bar.

Personally, I don't think it's immoral for somebody to get a hooker. Better than going off and raping or some other junk.

And besides, if worse comes to worse - get into the Nevada bar perhaps?

[Rotor]

To avoid some of the discrimination you are likely to get for hiring the juicy girl, you could always phrase it as "Violation of a General Order". Only if they later ask would you have to tell them why. It also gets more to the UCMJ language.

[Voodoo94]

Wow.

That sucks. What's worse is that you lost your GI Bill too. At least you are still entitled to VA Healthcare - this will be a huge benefit for you in grad school and you likely meet the income threshold to avoid a co-pay.

I feel really sorry for you.

Again, I don't think that this is a big deal. I did not know your rank. Basically, you resigned in lieu of UCMJ action. Similar things happen in the civilian world (or civilian Federal service) all the time.

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[ajmanyjah]

I may not "have to run away to Canada" but if it means I attend the #1 ranked University of Toronto with multiple openings into the top Toronto law firms instead of a crappy second-rate law school like Boston College (where John Kerry went after he got his "General Discharge"), it would be worth it.

Have you lived in Canada? I hope you realize the "BigLaw" salaries there are NOWHERE close to the ones you will get into even at a "crap" school like BU

According to TLS

"Although salary figures are not reported, graduates from the University of Toronto Faculty of Law can expect to make about $55,000 a year while articling in Toronto, and about $90,000 a year at the top Bay Street Firms, which is Canada’s largest legal market. Graduates who choose to head to New York or Boston will of course make much more, with Toronto graduates consistently earning Vault 5 and Vault 10 jobs, but many graduates forego these opportunities and choose to stay in Canada. "

At 31k a year I think you need to think about it. Canada is a good place to grind out an OK life, but COL is skyhigh because of taxes ESPECIALLY in TO and Van, but BC will probably be a better spot (also, Kerry was catholic, might have had something to do with his BC attendance)

[niederbomb]

"Articling" is something you have to do prior to getting admitted to the bar, I believe. So the salary is going to be quite low at first, after which it gets higher after one passes the bar. The top Bay Street associate jobs still pay over $100k, and the first pick of those goes to U of T grads. So yes, I've done my homework.

I have lived in Toronto, but admittedly I was quite young at the time.

I hope you realize the "BigLaw" salaries there are NOWHERE close to the ones you will get into even at a "crap" school like BU

Still doesn't help if BC graduates don't get any job at all. BC is barely in the top 30, and we all know even T14 doesn't guarantee a job these days.

I'm more interested in feedback on the addendum to use at U.S. schools, so low salaries out of U of T won't be an issue.

[jajacobs]

I think this is much ado about nothing.

From my experience, the only thing you have to disclose on an application (for school admission) is the type/character of your discharge (e.g. General under Honorable Conditions). Candidly, I wouldn't go into any more detail than that because I doubt any further elaboration is required. It's not like you have to produce a DD-214 to the admissions Committee.


Character and Fitness is the first time you will need to produce a DD-214. I think you can easily explain your situation at that time.

This is actually not accurate - I have already had to attach my DD214 to 2 of my applications as part of the standard application process. You may well have to do the same....or you may have to be sure that the schools to which you are applying are not requiring this as part of the application...

[niederbomb]

None of the ones I'm applying to require this on the posted application.

Clarification: Did you have to attach your DD214 initially, or did schools without the requirement contact you later and ask for it?

[jajacobs]

it was part of the original application...on both it was clearly noted in the section about military service to attach a DD214. i think on a third app they asked for the DD214 if you had anything other than an honorable discharge.

i have yet to hit "submit" on any of these applications, so i can't speak to whether they will ask "after the fact," so to speak...

in any event, good luck to you!