Quality of life??? Forum

[dhatfie1]

Anybody ever met a lawyer who works less than 50 hours/wk? I always read about overworked lawyers who make their luscious salaries by putting in 60-100 hrs/wk. I wanna hear more about the former or just thoughts on it in general.

[beachbum]

I don't know about less than 50/week, but a lot of in-house attorneys I've talked to work around 50/week. It really isn't that bad. And very few people I know (in any profession) work a standard 9-5 shift.

[drdolittle]

Anybody ever met a lawyer who works less than 50 hours/wk? I always read about overworked lawyers who make their luscious salaries by putting in 60-100 hrs/wk. I wanna hear more about the former or just thoughts on it in general.

Lawyers with independent practices & established clientele can work much more comfortable hours, from what I've heard. i.e. definitely not biglaw...

[Stanford4Me]

I don't know about less than 50/week, but a lot of in-house attorneys I've talked to work around 50/week. It really isn't that bad. And very few people I know (in any profession) work a standard 9-5 shift.

[094320]

..

[Patriot1208]

Ya, 40 hours a week isn't realistic for almost any profession that pays good money. Sorry bud, thats not the real world.

[djgoldbe]

Self-Employed lawyers, as well as some in non-billable sectors (PI), work significantly less hours on average. However, to expect a standard 9-5 work day is unrealistic given the nature of a service industry. But to answer your question: Yes, I have met a lawyer who works less than 50 hours a week.

[Patriot1208]

Self-Employed lawyers, as well as some in non-billable sectors (PI), work significantly less hours on average. However, to expect a standard 9-5 work day is unrealistic given the nature of a service industry. But to answer your question: Yes, I have met a lawyer who works less than 50 hours a week.

[djgoldbe]

Self-Employed lawyers, as well as some in non-billable sectors (PI), work significantly less hours on average. However, to expect a standard 9-5 work day is unrealistic given the nature of a service industry. But to answer your question: Yes, I have met a lawyer who works less than 50 hours a week.

I know more than one, but the OP asked a specific question so I gave a specific answer =)

Edit: Not that I disagree with the premise that it is for sure the exception and not the rule. If I had to guess I'd say 25-30% of lawyers work less than 50 hours on average.

[Patriot1208]

Self-Employed lawyers, as well as some in non-billable sectors (PI), work significantly less hours on average. However, to expect a standard 9-5 work day is unrealistic given the nature of a service industry. But to answer your question: Yes, I have met a lawyer who works less than 50 hours a week.

I know more than one, but the OP asked a specific question so I gave a specific answer =)

Edit: Not that I disagree with the premise that it is for sure the exception and not the rule. If I had to guess I'd say 25-30% of lawyers work less than 50 hours on average.

I can't beliee that statistic. Especially, if we exclude those doing doc review for an hourly wage.

[djgoldbe]

Self-Employed lawyers, as well as some in non-billable sectors (PI), work significantly less hours on average. However, to expect a standard 9-5 work day is unrealistic given the nature of a service industry. But to answer your question: Yes, I have met a lawyer who works less than 50 hours a week.

I know more than one, but the OP asked a specific question so I gave a specific answer =)

Edit: Not that I disagree with the premise that it is for sure the exception and not the rule. If I had to guess I'd say 25-30% of lawyers work less than 50 hours on average.

I can't beliee that statistic. Especially, if we exclude those doing doc review for an hourly wage.

Among Self-employed, government, and PI (both personal injury and public interest), as well as some in-house lawyers, the % of those working less than 50 hours would be significantly higher. It would be nice to get real detailed statistics, but I think my % is reinforced by studies like this:

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/ ... f06302.pdf

Which Found that "lawyers less than 36 years old worked an average of 48.2 hours per week, compared to 45.0 hours by lawyers over 36."

Edit: Another source

http://www.stthomas.edu/ethicalleadersh ... orking.pdf

[crazycanuck]

I don't know about less than 50/week, but a lot of in-house attorneys I've talked to work around 50/week. It really isn't that bad. And very few people I know (in any profession) work a standard 9-5 shift.

This. Unless it's an hourly job you aren't working 9-5 and getting paid well.

Unless of course you are a pro athlete in which case you go to practice in the morning, fuck your wife/hoes silly all afternoon and get paid millions to have people watch you play the sport.

[Renzo]

The thing that really screws up the QOL of biglaw lawyers isn't so much the hours as the lack of control over those hours. Biglaw partners couldn't give an F--K if it's your daughter's first birthday, or that you've been planning this vacation for 2 years, or that your long-lost brother is in town to visit. When there's work, you'll cancel your plans, and often at the last minute.

If you want QOL, think less in terms of hours, and think more about the business model: the gov't is closed on weekends and holidays, so you can be relatively sure you'll have some control over your schedule. Same goes for in-house work; if there's a crisis that requires an instant all-nighter, that's generally getting farmed out to the biglaw firm that specializes in that crisis. Tax work is less likely to result in all nighters and long weekends than M&A work, even if the hours are the same; etc.

[270910]

The thing that really screws up the QOL of biglaw lawyers isn't so much the hours as the lack of control over those hours. Biglaw partners couldn't give an F--K if it's your daughter's first birthday, or that you've been planning this vacation for 2 years, or that your long-lost brother is in town to visit. When there's work, you'll cancel your plans, and often at the last minute.

If you want QOL, think less in terms of hours, and think more about the business model: the gov't is closed on weekends and holidays, so you can be relatively sure you'll have some control over your schedule. Same goes for in-house work; if there's a crisis that requires an instant all-nighter, that's generally getting farmed out to the biglaw firm that specializes in that crisis. Tax work is less likely to result in all nighters and long weekends than M&A work, even if the hours are the same; etc.

Major +1.

It's even institutional more than practice area specific: As an associate at a big law firm, part of your value will be the number of hours you bill. But you only bill hours when you have work to do, and you only have work to do when it is given to you by a partner. Your schedule a) needs to be intense for you to be worth it to the firm and b) is largely entirely out of your control. Now in an M&A practice group, that might mean a huge number of attorneys get pulled in to a major deal round the clock all at once. But even in the most breezy tax practice imaginable, if a client needs something by 9 on a Friday before they leave town, and the partner drops it on your desk at 4:30, your "hours" are going to be less meaningfully bad than the M&A team that's just getting started but your control is still going to take a hit.

Welcome the service industry! You will be handsomely rewarded for your service.

[GettingReady2010]

If you think about it, associates really don't make that great of money. If they're working 80-90 hours a week, that's 40-50 hours that they're not getting in OT per week. This means that associates technically only get very little per hour - They're basically making around $38 per hour. A construction worker can make more than that per hour with OT.

Sure they're getting paid 160k per year, but they're also working twice as long as the typical 40 hour a week work week. Now before people start yelling and screaming, I realize that most Americans work more than 40 hours per week.

[270910]

If you think about it, associates really don't make that great of money. If they're working 80-90 hours a week, that's 40-50 hours that they're not getting in OT per week. This means that associates technically only get very little per hour - They're basically making around $38 per hour. A construction worker can make more than that per hour with OT.

Sure they're getting paid 160k per year, but they're also working twice as long as the typical 40 hour a week work week. Now before people start yelling and screaming, I realize that most Americans work more than 40 hours per week.

Nobody works 80-90 hour weeks with any degree of regularity. It's more like high 50s-mid 60s on average at the nasty firms.

Also, people act like it's some big fucking revelation that you have to work a lot of hours to get a lot of dollars. It doesn't matter that the hourly wage may look lower as a result - part of your compensation is the ability to make that hourly wage over so many hours. It's not like you can just work 80 hours / week for double pay at most corporations.

[Patriot1208]

If you think about it, associates really don't make that great of money. If they're working 80-90 hours a week, that's 40-50 hours that they're not getting in OT per week. This means that associates technically only get very little per hour - They're basically making around $38 per hour. A construction worker can make more than that per hour with OT.

Sure they're getting paid 160k per year, but they're also working twice as long as the typical 40 hour a week work week. Now before people start yelling and screaming, I realize that most Americans work more than 40 hours per week.

Ya, don't know what you think, but average work time is around 60-65 for big firms. Sometimes slightly longer and sometimes slighly less. No one anywhere works 80-90 hours a week, unless it's a one week I have my goldman sachs litigation trial coming up type of thing. And then you chill (relatively) the week after.

[drdolittle]

Welcome the service industry! You will be handsomely rewarded for your service.

It's not surprising that a profession charging by the hour will have a huge incentive to drive up those hours. At least it's not like many other jobs where long hours are the norm, but without the pay.

[270910]

Welcome the service industry! You will be handsomely rewarded for your service.

It's not surprising that a profession charging by the hour will have a huge incentive to drive up those hours. At least it's not like many other jobs where long hours are the norm, but without the pay.

I mean, it's not like lawyers have to work hard to find things that take up time. The law is hard and the law requires precision and expertise. It's rare that the lawyers get involved if the stakes aren't enormous, and so it becomes worth it to read every document produced in discovery, conduct exhaustive due diligence, polish the motions and supporting exhibits several times, etc.

[GettingReady2010]

If you think about it, associates really don't make that great of money. If they're working 80-90 hours a week, that's 40-50 hours that they're not getting in OT per week. This means that associates technically only get very little per hour - They're basically making around $38 per hour. A construction worker can make more than that per hour with OT.

Sure they're getting paid 160k per year, but they're also working twice as long as the typical 40 hour a week work week. Now before people start yelling and screaming, I realize that most Americans work more than 40 hours per week.

Ya, don't know what you think, but average work time is around 60-65 for big firms. Sometimes slightly longer and sometimes slighly less. No one anywhere works 80-90 hours a week, unless it's a one week I have my goldman sachs litigation trial coming up type of thing. And then you chill (relatively) the week after.

I know very little about biglaw. Everything I know about it comes from TLS, so I was just stating what I've read from dozens posts regarding the amount of hours worked per week. If you're right, I stand corrected.

[pocket herc]

I know very little about biglaw. Everything I know about it comes from TLS, so I was just stating what I've read from dozens posts regarding the amount of hours worked per week. If you're right, I stand corrected.

where so many of us go wrong

[Patriot1208]

If you think about it, associates really don't make that great of money. If they're working 80-90 hours a week, that's 40-50 hours that they're not getting in OT per week. This means that associates technically only get very little per hour - They're basically making around $38 per hour. A construction worker can make more than that per hour with OT.

Sure they're getting paid 160k per year, but they're also working twice as long as the typical 40 hour a week work week. Now before people start yelling and screaming, I realize that most Americans work more than 40 hours per week.

Ya, don't know what you think, but average work time is around 60-65 for big firms. Sometimes slightly longer and sometimes slighly less. No one anywhere works 80-90 hours a week, unless it's a one week I have my goldman sachs litigation trial coming up type of thing. And then you chill (relatively) the week after.

I know very little about biglaw. Everything I know about it comes from TLS, so I was just stating what I've read from dozens posts regarding the amount of hours worked per week. If you're right, I stand corrected.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/introduc ... iglaw.html


I did some google searches, and it's a lot of speculation on message boards. But general consensus on the ones I read was 60-65 was average for biglaw. With the occasional more hours for a special week. Never anywhere did I read on TLS or anywhere else that someone with first hand experience said they worked an average of more than 70 hours a week.

[GettingReady2010]

While 60-65 hrs. per week is still a lot, it's not unbearable. I have a feeling that many doctors work this much if not more.

[drdolittle]

While 60-65 hrs. per week is still a lot, it's not unbearable. I have a feeling that many doctors work this much if not more.

You betcha. True for real doctors & most PhDs.

[Patriot1208]

While 60-65 hrs. per week is still a lot, it's not unbearable. I have a feeling that many doctors work this much if not more.

The other career i'm looking into (getting on as an Agent at the federal agency I work at) the agents are required* to work 50 hrs a week and many work more. And you make a lot less money for sure. So 60-65 hours definitely doesn't scare me off.