Honestly, is it even worth it to go to a lower tier school? Forum

[Space_Cowboy]

If its your only choice, take it. Work your ass off and you'll be fine. There are people out there without high school degrees that are multimillionaires, you just need to have heart and work like crazy. If you have a choice between a t14 or lower tiered school, obviously you chose t 14. By lower tiered school I mean t 3 or 4.

Dumb luck and good decision making are more important than people seem willing to acknowledge.

[sundevil77]

If its your only choice, take it. Work your ass off and you'll be fine. There are people out there without high school degrees that are multimillionaires, you just need to have heart and work like crazy. If you have a choice between a t14 or lower tiered school, obviously you chose t 14. By lower tiered school I mean t 3 or 4.

Dumb luck and good decision making are more important than people seem willing to acknowledge.

+1. Read Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers." Hard work is important, but there are many hard workers out there. The ones that become truly successful have opportunity strike them at the right time. It's hard for many of us to admit that things seemingly beyond our control can determine our fate.

Of course, we can help ourselves out by setting ourselves up to be recipients of good fortune. At least part of the rationale for going to a T14 is exactly that: it sets us up for 'lucky' breaks down the road.

[sibley]

If its your only choice, take it. Work your ass off and you'll be fine. There are people out there without high school degrees that are multimillionaires, you just need to have heart and work like crazy. If you have a choice between a t14 or lower tiered school, obviously you chose t 14. By lower tiered school I mean t 3 or 4.

Dumb luck and good decision making are more important than people seem willing to acknowledge.

=) good karma?

[im_blue]

If its your only choice, take it. [strike]Work your ass off[/strike] Finish top 5 in your class and you'll be fine. There are people out there without high school degrees that are multimillionaires, you just need to have heart and work like crazy. If you have a choice between a t14 or lower tiered school, obviously you chose t 14. By lower tiered school I mean t 3 or 4.

FTFY

[pamcasso]

Didn't someone on TLS (Helmholtz?) make a ranking of "best value" schools? Personally, I don't think I'd take on $200K+ of debt for anything but HY.

This?:

At one point, I did a quality/cost analysis of the schools. The number to the right of the school name is the value index. Equilibrium occurs at 0.00. This means that if the highest quality school had the highest tuition price, it's index would be 0.00. If the lowest quality school had the lowest tuition price, it's index would be 0.00. A positive number indicates more quality per dollar, and a negative number indicates less quality per dollar. So for example, Yale is the highest quality school and has an index of 1.44 because it's tuition is not the highest. This means that you are receiving a higher quality per dollar compared to a school at equilibrium price. Cornell is a very high quality school but because of it's high tuition, it's index number, -8.87, is below equilibrium. This is not meant to be a list of the value of a degree from any particular school compared to debt from tuition.

1 BYU 35.39
2 CUNY Queens 25.57
3 Alabama 23.84
4 North Carolina 22.63
5 U Mississippi 22.51
6 South Dakota 22.45
7 Wyoming 22.15
8 Arkansas Fay 21.45
9 U OF DC 21.24
10 UNLV 21.23
11 SUNY Buffalo 19.92
12 North Dakota 19.29
13 Texas Southern 18.98
14 Texas Tech 18.53
15 Oregon 17.87
16 LSU 17.55
17 Washington 17.19
18 Idaho 17.01
19 Arakansas Little Rock 16.15
20 Nebraska 15.89
21 Howard 15.70
22 NC Central 15.30
23 Montana 15.06
24 Kansas 14.92
25 Houston 14.82
26 W&M 14.70
27 Cleveland St. 14.65
28 Kentucky 14.19
29 Denver 13.41
10 Arizona St. 12.79
31 Georgia 12.71
32 West Virginia 12.60
33 New Mexico 12.48
34 Oklahoma 12.44
35 Wayne St. 12.24
36 Utah 11.77
37 Harvard 10.90
38 Temple 10.20
39 Hawaii 9.47
40 Washburn 8.80
41 Tennessee 8.53
42 Stanford 8.40
43 Arizona 8.38
44 Florida 8.33
45 Iowa 7.06
46 UMN-TC 7.00
47 Missouri 6.79
48 Chicago 6.73
49 Wisconsin 6.67
50 Texas 6.67
51 Missouri - KC 6.57
52 Creighton 6.44
53 Louisville 5.81
54 GMU 5.77
55 Colorado 5.64
56 South Texas 5.43
57 Wake Forest 4.84
58 Lewis and Clark 4.29
59 UVA 4.25
60 W&L 3.50
61 NYU 3.35
62 Maryland 3.06
63 Northern Illinois 2.98
64 Texas Wesleyan 2.94
65 Mississippi College 2.87
66 Williamette 2.84
67 Tulsa 2.55
68 UC-Berkeley 2.50
69 Ohio St. 2.39
70 Toledo 2.36
71 Georgia St. 2.33
72 Florida Int. 2.32
73 Pittsburgh 2.27
74 Akron 2.25
75 Florida St. 2.23
76 Maine 1.84
77 Marquette 1.60
78 Yale 1.44
79 Gonzaga 1.33
80 Drake 1.29
81 Richmond 1.01
82 Georgetown 0.73
83 Notre Dame 0.33
84 Villanova 0.22
85 St. Mary's TX 0.07
86 Penn St. -0.26
87 Duke -0.29
88 Boston U -0.79
89 Duquesne -0.83
90 Columbia -1.01
91 Indiana - Bloom -1.04
92 Boston College -1.07
93 Ohio Northern -1.22
94 Michigan -1.35
95 Rutgers Newark -1.47
96 Southern -1.49
97 Stetson -1.72
98 UCLA -1.77
99 Appalachian -1.88
100 Cincinatti -2.03
101 Rutgers Camden -2.06
102 Michigan St. -2.07
103 Samford -2.59
104 Upenn -2.66
105 Emory -2.84
106 Hamline -2.86
107 Vanderbilt -3.05
108 Washington STL -3.22
109 GWU -3.32
110 St. Louis -3.41
111 Illinois -3.62
112 Loyola NO -3.71
113 Campbell -4.41
114 Seattle -4.71
115 William Mitchell -4.88
116 Northern Kentucky -4.94
117 Cooley -5.21
118 UC-Hastings -5.62
119 Southern Methodist -5.63
120 Southern Ilinois -5.75
121 Case Western -5.90
122 Tulane -5.97
123 Mercer -6.07
124 Baylor -6.24
125 Chicago Kent -6.58
126 Dayton -6.62
127 Miami -6.67
128 Loyola Chicago -7.02
129 UC-Davis -7.31
130 Nova SE -7.54
131 Northwestern -7.56
132 St. Thomas MN -8.11
133 Valapraiso -8.52
134 DePaul -8.72
135 Cornell -8.87
136 Capital -8.96
137 Franklin Pierce -9.08
138 South Carolina -9.11
139 Widener -9.18
140 Catholic -9.68
141 American -9.77
142 Regent -10.06
143 Detroit -10.18
144 U Conn -10.65
145 Pepperdine -10.68
146 Oklahoma City -10.82
147 Roger Williams -10.96
148 Fordham -11.15
149 St. Thomas FL -11.35
150 USC -11.68
151 Santa Clara -12.06
152 Memphis -12.42
153 San Francisco -12.58
154 San Diego -12.59
155 John Marshall -12.73
156 Baltimore -12.89
157 New England -13.38
158 Florida Coastal -13.60
159 McGeorge -14.04
160 Loyola LA -14.45
161 Indiana - Indy -14.64
162 Barry -14.77
163 W. New England -14.90
164 Northeatern -15.28
165 Southwestern -16.16
166 Vermont -17.01
167 Golden Gate -17.09
168 Thomas Jefferson -17.09
169 Chapman -17.50
170 Whittier -17.67
171 Hofstra -18.16
172 Cardozo -18.95
173 Suffolk -19.26
174 Cal Western -19.44
175 Seton Hall -19.52
176 Ave Maria -19.97
177 Brooklyn -20.46
178 St. John's -20.59
179 Alabany -21.17
180 Pace -21.47
181 Quinnipiac -21.74
182 Touro -23.53
183 Syracuse -27.04
184 New York Law -28.66

edit: I should add that the tuition amounts were the ones listed in the 2010 USNWR, so while most of the index still should be good, it won't account, for example, for the UC schools' significant rise in tuition. If I do this next year, expect Davis and Hastings to take quite a tumble.

i feel like this would be more valuable if it was broken into regions. wyoming may be more valuable on average when compared with golden gate, but what if a person was planning on practicing in the bay area? comparing GG's value to other schools in the region would give a much better idea of the relative value of relevant schools. just my thoughts on the matter

[blsingindisguise]

It's kind of sad to me to see all the "power-of-positive-thinking" self-delusion that goes on in threads like these. Invariably you see the same posts over and over again:

"Well, you might not make 160k, but put in a little work and you'll find something good."
"Why I know a guy who went to a lower T2 and now he's a partner at a top firm!"
etc

Of course the odds are grossly stacked against those things, but we're all above-average kids who always beat the odds. Even four years ago I could have torn this apart.

Except the thing is now even a lot of the students who DO do really well from these schools aren't finding jobs. I am one of them and I know many others like me.

I'm not saying that no one should ever attend a school like this, but you need to really weigh things carefully before you commit yourself to hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt service. The market may improve a little in the next few years but it's not expected to take off again. It's not going to be 2006 again.

Another post you see a lot: "Yeah, I know things aren't great in the law market, but that's true in every industry." This is sort of a headscratcher - why is that a justification to take on even more debt for the same low job prospects?