Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to? Forum

[SwollenMonkey]

I even know an attorney that graduated from Southwestern before it was accredited, and he turned into a well-connected LA lawyer with deep pockets. Not all is lost attending a TTT, but it is preferable to be at a T1 or T2.

I don't doubt that this is true, but I wonder how many utter failures there are for every success story like that out of Southwestern. 50? 100? 200?

It's not a question of what's possible, it's a question of how possible it is. Yes, you can be that one in a million who makes it, but treating law school like a $200,000 lottery ticket is the dumbest thing you could possibly do.

I agree. Glad I don't gamble.

[Danteshek]

Swollenmonkey - please stop posting if you don't have anything intelligent to say. It's getting annoying. It's also hard to take you seriously when you behave like this...

[Grizz]

If you go to a T4, or T3 school, the top percent may make big law, but even if you are top 15%, you are going to be making atleast 80K + coming out. If you don't think that is worth the 100-125K investment, then congrats, you disagree with me.

Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of $80k jobs out there. Thanks to law's bi-modal salary distribution curve, there are a lot of people making biglaw salaries of $140k and up (massive spike at $160k) and another massive chunk of people making $30k-$50k, with not a lot in between. You have a shot of making $60k-$100k surely, but if you don't land biglaw straight out, you have a better chance of making $40kish for many many years until you can work your may up and start making your $80k. With your $100k+ in loans, that sounds like a terrible investment.

[Grizz]

Also, I may be an 0L but this graph pretty much illustrates the feelings of many posters on this site and people I've talked to ITE.

[rocker1487]

In terms of the whole T3/T4 debate, I honestly think it really depends on what goals that particular law student has in mind. If you'd like to work biglaw, chances are you won't have a chance in hell at one of those top firms (with very few exceptions - unless you have connections, etc). However, I have asked several practicing attorneys about this from all ends of the spectrum both in public and private practice. The consensus seems to be that the school that you go to has very little bearing on future success as an attorney. I personally know several T3/T4 grads that are doing very well (100k+), however they are solo's. If you'd like to work biglaw, the better the rank of the school the better your chances of being hired. If you are planning to go solo, it doesn't matter where you go but there's alot more legwork you have to do in order to ensure your success. I've been told that there aren't to many Ivy grads that have gone solo.. so it all depends on what you want. My opinion, it's worth going to law school either way. If you are smart and saavy enough, there is always a way to make money..even in a shitty economy.

[Danteshek]

Some markets are a lot less biglaw centric than others. The bimodal theory is a lot more relevant to the analysis in NY than it is in LA. LA is the small business capital of the US, which basically translates into a larger portion of lawyers working in small offices.

[Teoeo]

No.

[Grizz]

Some markets are a lot less biglaw centric than others. The bimodal theory is a lot more relevant to the analysis in NY than it is in LA. LA is the small business capital of the US, which basically translates into a larger portion of lawyers working in small offices.

Also true. I'm just talking in the most general terms here.

[Grizz]

However, I have asked several practicing attorneys about this from all ends of the spectrum both in public and private practice. The consensus seems to be that the school that you go to has very little bearing on future success as an attorney. I personally know several T3/T4 grads that are doing very well (100k+), however they are solo's. If you'd like to work biglaw, the better the rank of the school the better your chances of being hired. If you are planning to go solo, it doesn't matter where you go but there's alot more legwork you have to do in order to ensure your success. I've been told that there aren't to many Ivy grads that have gone solo.. so it all depends on what you want. My opinion, it's worth going to law school either way. If you are smart and saavy enough, there is always a way to make money..even in a shitty economy.

Keep in mind those attorneys you asked in all likelihood went to school when the market was a lot better for new attorneys and law school didn't cost so much money. If you asked recent grads, or this year's 2L and 3L classes, they'd have a much less rosy picture for you.

As for solo practice, try going solo with no experience, no clients, no idea how to actually practice law, and no idea how to run a business. Plus, the costs of doing business for solos (office space, fax machine, copier, printer, secretary, etc.) are astronomical. If you don't get disbarred for malpractice in a couple years, you still stand a great chance of ruining yourself financially if your business doesn't succeed, which 90% of small businesses don't. Lots of people who go solo or start small firms/boutiques already have bigger firm experience, connections, and established clients, which is almost essential for running a successful solo. For every TTT grad with a successful solo, just think about how many TTT people are working for a pittance or have given up the law altogether. Hint: it's a lot of people.

[RP1983]

Some markets are a lot less biglaw centric than others. The bimodal theory is a lot more relevant to the analysis in NY than it is in LA. LA is the small business capital of the US, which basically translates into a larger portion of lawyers working in small offices.

Thank you for making some of the few intelligent posts in this thread.

[RP1983]

Top 15% from a TTT does not guarantee you an 80k a year job, nor does top 1% for that matter. Was I a little to light on the sarcastic post above?

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit

Also, I wasn't calling you out with that post before. I have no beef with you. I was simply referring to one of your earlier posts about Widener not being one of the top T4 or T3 schools and you referred to another one as being better and placing better. I am honestly asking you why you feel this way because I figured it placed well in DE since it is the only school there.

[Grizz]

Top 15% from a TTT does not guarantee you an 80k a year job, nor does top 1% for that matter. Was I a little to light on the sarcastic post above?

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit

Also, I wasn't calling you out with that post before. I have no beef with you. I was simply referring to one of your earlier posts about Widener not being one of the top T4 or T3 schools and you referred to another one as being better and placing better. I am honestly asking you why you feel this way because I figured it placed well in DE since it is the only school there.

If you're cool with scrapping for the few jobs in the DE market and are cool with never leaving DE, go right ahead. Still better than a few TTTs and T4s I'd wager.

Edit: Incidentally, Widener is one of these schools that try to nanny you with a no-tobacco policy haha

http://law.widener.edu/About/TobaccoFreePolicy.aspx

[RP1983]

Top 15% from a TTT does not guarantee you an 80k a year job, nor does top 1% for that matter. Was I a little to light on the sarcastic post above?

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit

Also, I wasn't calling you out with that post before. I have no beef with you. I was simply referring to one of your earlier posts about Widener not being one of the top T4 or T3 schools and you referred to another one as being better and placing better. I am honestly asking you why you feel this way because I figured it placed well in DE since it is the only school there.

If you're cool with scrapping for the few jobs in the DE market and are cool with never leaving DE, go right ahead. Still better than a few TTTs and T4s I'd wager.

Edit: Incidentally, Widener is one of these schools that try to nanny you with a no-tobacco policy haha

http://law.widener.edu/About/TobaccoFreePolicy.aspx

I'm not worred about that. I smoke pot

[Nicholasnickynic]

In terms of the validity of TLSers posts:

I'm a 0L. However, there is yet to be any instance in all my visiting of schools, that something that TLS says does not match up with reality.

[A'nold]

Top 15% from a TTT does not guarantee you an 80k a year job, nor does top 1% for that matter. Was I a little to light on the sarcastic post above?

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit

Also, I wasn't calling you out with that post before. I have no beef with you. I was simply referring to one of your earlier posts about Widener not being one of the top T4 or T3 schools and you referred to another one as being better and placing better. I am honestly asking you why you feel this way because I figured it placed well in DE since it is the only school there.

Sigh. Look back at that post. I was saying that the difference b/w Cooley and Wayne State is like the difference b/w Stanford and Widener, not the difference b/w Widener and other t3 or 4 schools. I was just trying to make the point that not all t3's and 4's are created equally and that Wayne State >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cooley by a landslide.

[Mr. Matlock]

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit

Also, I wasn't calling you out with that post before. I have no beef with you. I was simply referring to one of your earlier posts about Widener not being one of the top T4 or T3 schools and you referred to another one as being better and placing better. I am honestly asking you why you feel this way because I figured it placed well in DE since it is the only school there.

Sigh. Look back at that post. I was saying that the difference b/w Cooley and Wayne State is like the difference b/w Stanford and Widener, not the difference b/w Widener and other t3 or 4 schools. I was just trying to make the point that not all t3's and 4's are created equally and that Wayne State >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cooley by a landslide.

I'm not worred about that. I smoke pot

[MurderafterMidnight]

Thanks guys from the info, it seems it is to much of a risk price wise. I would not mind solo practice or my own firm eventually but that is to much money to risk for that to happen, but I was doing research and I can't believe the guys in Cali can take law school online cheap non aba and still sit for the bar that would be perfect for solo practice. I wonder has anybody ever got ever got admitted outside Cali?

[270910]

Thanks guys from the info, it seems it is to much of a risk price wise. I would not mind solo practice or my own firm eventually but that is to much money to risk for that to happen, but I was doing research and I can't believe the guys in Cali can take law school online cheap non aba and still sit for the bar that would be perfect for solo practice. I wonder has anybody ever got ever got admitted outside Cali?

Yeah, what a great idea!!! Once you get out of law school, think of all the people who will want to hire you to represent them in high stakes legal matters! Fuck education, experience, or networking - you'll be licensed to PRACTICE THE LAW.

[jetlagz28]

The answer to the original question.

It depends.

Have a plan, be realistic and try to get some money from the school. At TLS.com you should not ask questions like this here because its like blood in the water.

[A'nold]

Weird side note. I know an old dude that went to an unaccredited school in CA for a career change and couldn't get a job AND he was not aware that he could not practice out-of-state and told me of his horror story of missing out on a good job in another state because of it. Anyway, dude opened up his own practice and now lives in one of the richest neighborhoods in central CA in a mansion.......yeah, I'm full of anecdotes, lol.

[MurderafterMidnight]

Weird side note. I know an old dude that went to an unaccredited school in CA for a career change and couldn't get a job AND he was not aware that he could not practice out-of-state and told me of his horror story of missing out on a good job in another state because of it. Anyway, dude opened up his own practice and now lives in one of the richest neighborhoods in central CA in a mansion.......yeah, I'm full of anecdotes, lol.

Wow really that is amazing are you serious? That is really hard to believe

[V3locity]

I just want to say as an 0L I can appreciate the "in your face reality checks" by some of the more pessimistic posts. At the same time I commend the ones fighting for the "little guy" and preaching no matter how small, there is a chance (Tebow?).

It's definitely got me thinking more and some informative lunch time reading. Good stuff.

[vanwinkle]

I just want to say as an 0L I can appreciate the "in your face reality checks" by some of the more pessimistic posts. At the same time I commend the ones fighting for the "little guy" and preaching no matter how small, there is a chance (Tebow?).

As one of the supposedly "pessimistic" people, I have no problem with people saying there's a chance almost anywhere. I'll concede that there is. The thing I want people to realize is just that those individual cases don't make for a high probability of success, and that you can't know if you're going to be one of those successful people ahead of time.

People make the mistake of thinking that they're special and they have what it takes to succeed, and what they fail to perceive is that most of the people taking the high risk of attending one of these low-tier schools is doing so on that basis. The problem is people not respecting the odds of success because they believe they have some advantage that can "beat the odds", which tends to not be true (except for limited circumstances, like, say, having connections at A Family Law Firm or something).

If someone is fully aware of the odds, and respectful of the fact that they're not "special" and magically able to beat those odds, then I don't mind them making that choice to go. That's their choice, and if they fail it's on them. I only advocate for full and thorough education of people so they can make more informed choices.

[Danteshek]

I just want to say as an 0L I can appreciate the "in your face reality checks" by some of the more pessimistic posts. At the same time I commend the ones fighting for the "little guy" and preaching no matter how small, there is a chance (Tebow?).

It's definitely got me thinking more and some informative lunch time reading. Good stuff.

This reminds me of Dumb and Dumber

[Grizz]

As one of the supposedly "pessimistic" people, I have no problem with people saying there's a chance almost anywhere. I'll concede that there is. The thing I want people to realize is just that those individual cases don't make for a high probability of success, and that you can't know if you're going to be one of those successful people ahead of time.

People make the mistake of thinking that they're special and they have what it takes to succeed, and what they fail to perceive is that most of the people taking the high risk of attending one of these low-tier schools is doing so on that basis. The problem is people not respecting the odds of success because they believe they have some advantage that can "beat the odds", which tends to not be true (except for limited circumstances, like, say, having connections at a family law firm or something).

If someone is fully aware of the odds, and respectful of the fact that they're not "special" and magically able to beat those odds, then I don't mind them making that choice to go. That's their choice, and if they fail it's on them. I only advocate for full and thorough education of people so they can make more informed choices.

As another pessimist, TITCR.