Regional vs. national law schools Forum

[GMasters5]

It's not as simple as clerk -> get cool job

That's ridiculous

Pick an actual career goal

I'm aware of that, but it's a great opportunity to do something that I've always wanted to do. Also, it allows you to start out practicing law with an experienced mentor and gain coonections that you otherwise wouldn't gain. Why are you being so negative anyways? I'm just trying to gain info tbh

Most of the info about law schools these days is negative if you haven't noticed

Don't complain when the advice/info you want to hear isn't the advice/info you get

It's not that I don't want to hear it. It's just when people like you put your futile opinions, rather than answering my question

[cron1834]

Relevant:

Bayesian probability basically says that "probability" is, to some degree, subjective. It's your best guess for how likely something is. But to be Bayesian, your "best guess" must take the observable evidence into account. Updating your beliefs by looking at the outside world is called "Bayesian inference". Your initial guess about the probability is called your "prior belief", or just your "prior" for short. Your final guess, after you look at the evidence, is called your "posterior." The observable evidence is what changes your prior into your posterior.

How much does the evidence change your belief? That depends on three things. It depends on A) how different the evidence is from your prior, B) how strong the evidence is, and C) how strong your prior is...

When those people keep broadcasting their priors to the world again and again after every new piece of evidence comes out, it gets very annoying. After every article comes out about a new solar technology breakthrough, or a new cost drop, they'll just repeat "Solar will never be cost-competitive." That is unhelpful and uninformative, since they're just restating their priors over and over. Thus, it is annoying. Guys, we know what you think already.

English has no word for "the constant, repetitive reiteration of strong priors". Yet it is a well-known phenomenon in the world of punditry, debate, and public affairs. On Twitter, we call it "derp".

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/sorry-ha ... z397R0cAtn

[Chrstgtr]

^ is true. This thread has become a pissing contest.

Yes, the lower T14 destroys 15-20 in clerkship odds. No, you should NOT be considering UT, WUSTL, and UCLA if you want to clerk and/or practice law in Florida.

Someone from the dirty will have to chime in re: Vandy.

Yeah I'd like to hear some input from law grads that work in GA or FL, or law students that went/go to Vandy, since it's in the same region...almost

why not just get a full ride from a school that DOES place well in Ga or FL? I know Vandy's a great school and all, but you'll have a ton of debt to pay off when, instead, you could just be totally sure and go to a school that places well? FSU or something idk I havent looked.

Advice for the OP:

No one places especially well in FL. Part of this is due to a weak legal market and part of this is due to a lack of a dominant LS. UF is probably the best school in Florida but rarely (if ever) gives out full rides and schools like UM give terrible stipulations on their scholarships. All of this on top of the fact that no school in Florida places well into big law (which is virtually required to pay off loans) or clerkships. Only reason why I could see going to one of these schools would be if only location matters to you and the quality of the job/having a job does not matter very much. No one knows where they will graduate in their law class and coming out near the bottom of even the most respected schools in Florida is a recipe for unemployment with considerable debt which is almost certainly worse than what your outcome would be coming out of any T14.

[GMasters5]

^ is true. This thread has become a pissing contest.

Yes, the lower T14 destroys 15-20 in clerkship odds. No, you should NOT be considering UT, WUSTL, and UCLA if you want to clerk and/or practice law in Florida.

Someone from the dirty will have to chime in re: Vandy.

Yeah I'd like to hear some input from law grads that work in GA or FL, or law students that went/go to Vandy, since it's in the same region...almost

why not just get a full ride from a school that DOES place well in Ga or FL? I know Vandy's a great school and all, but you'll have a ton of debt to pay off when, instead, you could just be totally sure and go to a school that places well? FSU or something idk I havent looked.

Advice for the OP:

No one places especially well in FL. Part of this is due to a weak legal market and part of this is due to a lack of a dominant LS. UF is probably the best school in Florida but rarely (if ever) gives out full rides and schools like UM give terrible stipulations on their scholarships. All of this on top of the fact that no school in Florida places well into big law (which is virtually required to pay off loans) or clerkships. Only reason why I could see going to one of these schools would be if only location matters to you and the quality of the job/having a job does not matter very much. No one knows where they will graduate in their law class and coming out near the bottom of even the most respected schools in Florida is a recipe for unemployment with considerable debt which is almost certainly worse than what your outcome would be coming out of any T14.

Cool thanks! That's what I was wondering, but most people in this thread seemed truly hurt that I wanted to clerk and questioned the power of the T14. I really don't want to go to UF though, so I guess getting a job in FL is out of the question, unless the legal market picks up or I get really lucky in my job search

[yot11]

No one is "hurt" that you "questioned the power of the T14". People are saying that T14 has a wider geographic sphere of influence than the super regionals you listed.

The fact remains that, despite the stronger influence of the T14, I doubt that any of the schools you listed provide you a good chance of practicing in Florida.

I have a hard time believing that a Cornell grad would place better in Florida than a UT/Vandy grad. They both have a shit chance.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Re: my earlier post about clerking and debt - obviously if you can go to UCLA for free and then clerk, that's awesome and more power to you. My point was basically this: when you're applying for school you have no idea whether you'll be in a position to clerk or not. So if your choice is, say, NYU for sticker v. UCLA for no debt, it is not worth taking NYU for any perceived improved shot at a clerkship (not talking about other reasons, just clerkship odds). Because it's arguable that coming out of NYU with a clerkship but $250k in debt does not put you in a better position than coming out of UCLA without a clerkship but debt free. Basically, clerking is not worth $250k in debt, so if taking the money means you end up at a school with worse enough clerkship placement that you forego a clerkship, taking the money is still the better call.

(I say this as a huge advocate of clerking who has a job I could not have applied for if I didn't have the clerkship.)

But also I say this because I tend to think that for most people, the difference in schools isn't going to make a huge difference in clerkship odds. Sure, Yale is Yale and will get you a clerkship, but Yale will get you tons other things, too. And people aren't generally choosing between Yale and, say, Thomas Jefferson. They're choosing between Yale and another really awesome school. So when you're looking at schools like Vandy/UCLA/UT/maybe Cornell, I know the T14 has better clerkship placement, but I'm not convinced for any given individual getting into the lower T14 is going to make a difference worth paying for. It's going to be much more about how well you do at any one of those schools, and what else you bring to the table.

tl;dr - improved clerkship odds are not really a thing when you're looking at such closely comparable schools. It's more at the extremes that it's going to matter.

[arklaw13]

Vandy kid here.

For smaller markets like FL, ties and grades matter more than what school you went to. Other than HYS, the best schools for getting you to FL without risking unemployment will probably be Duke, UVA, and Vandy.

Georgia (read: ATL) is different because those firms are prestige whores and want HYS and/or top grades more than anything. GL

I happen to think that the lower T14 is more regional than people make it out to be, but definitely not as regional as T15-20. I know people who have gone to UMich and ended up practicing back home in Mississippi, but that's definitely not the norm.

The T14's main power is that it seems to be the cutoff at which large firms in major markets will take you seriously by default. Neither Vandy, UMich, or Cornell place many people in Cali, but all things being equal, a Cornell or UMich student will have an advantage over a Vandy student in getting to Cali. If you go to a T14, people tend to think that you just went to the best school you got into, scholarships considered. At a T15-20, people tend to assume you want to end up in that school's region. This is probably why NYC firms will go lower into the class at Georgetown than at Vandy, when the entering admission statistics are basically identical. NYC firms assume that you want to end up in the South if you go to Vandy, while they know not everyone at Georgetown wants to stay in DC.

[GMasters5]

No one is "hurt" that you "questioned the power of the T14". People are saying that T14 has a wider geographic sphere of influence than the super regionals you listed.

The fact remains that, despite the stronger influence of the T14, I doubt that any of the schools you listed provide you a good chance of practicing in Florida.

I have a hard time believing that a Cornell grad would place better in Florida than a UT/Vandy grad. They both have a shit chance.

That one guy is. And I know the T14 is stronger, I was just wondering "how strong" it is compared to the T15-20? I'm not solely looking at FL, that was like the third option in my hypothetical, but thanks for your response

[GMasters5]

Vandy kid here.

For smaller markets like FL, ties and grades matter more than what school you went to. Other than HYS, the best schools for getting you to FL without risking unemployment will probably be Duke, UVA, and Vandy.

Georgia (read: ATL) is different because those firms are prestige whores and want HYS and/or top grades more than anything. GL

I happen to think that the lower T14 is more regional than people make it out to be, but definitely not as regional as T15-20. I know people who have gone to UMich and ended up practicing back home in Mississippi, but that's definitely not the norm.

The T14's main power is that it seems to be the cutoff at which large firms in major markets will take you seriously by default. Neither Vandy, UMich, or Cornell place many people in Cali, but all things being equal, a Cornell or UMich student will have an advantage over a Vandy student in getting to Cali. If you go to a T14, people tend to think that you just went to the best school you got into, scholarships considered. At a T15-20, people tend to assume you want to end up in that school's region. This is probably why NYC firms will go lower into the class at Georgetown than at Vandy, when the entering admission statistics are basically identical. NYC firms assume that you want to end up in the South if you go to Vandy, while they know not everyone at Georgetown wants to stay in DC.

Thanks, you have been one of the most helpful people so far!

[GMasters5]

Re: my earlier post about clerking and debt - obviously if you can go to UCLA for free and then clerk, that's awesome and more power to you. My point was basically this: when you're applying for school you have no idea whether you'll be in a position to clerk or not. So if your choice is, say, NYU for sticker v. UCLA for no debt, it is not worth taking NYU for any perceived improved shot at a clerkship (not talking about other reasons, just clerkship odds). Because it's arguable that coming out of NYU with a clerkship but $250k in debt does not put you in a better position than coming out of UCLA without a clerkship but debt free. Basically, clerking is not worth $250k in debt, so if taking the money means you end up at a school with worse enough clerkship placement that you forego a clerkship, taking the money is still the better call.

(I say this as a huge advocate of clerking who has a job I could not have applied for if I didn't have the clerkship.)

But also I say this because I tend to think that for most people, the difference in schools isn't going to make a huge difference in clerkship odds. Sure, Yale is Yale and will get you a clerkship, but Yale will get you tons other things, too. And people aren't generally choosing between Yale and, say, Thomas Jefferson. They're choosing between Yale and another really awesome school. So when you're looking at schools like Vandy/UCLA/UT/maybe Cornell, I know the T14 has better clerkship placement, but I'm not convinced for any given individual getting into the lower T14 is going to make a difference worth paying for. It's going to be much more about how well you do at any one of those schools, and what else you bring to the table.

tl;dr - improved clerkship odds are not really a thing when you're looking at such closely comparable schools. It's more at the extremes that it's going to matter.

Thanks! My main goal is definitely going to the best school I get into with at least half scholarship

[pcthenls]

Surprised that no one has suggested Duke with some money. I know this is not lower top 20 but it should be OP's goal. If you have ties to FL you should be set. It appears UF/FSU/Miami would be most likely to place in FL, but if you are not sure you want FL, that may not be ideal. Emory may be an option if you want GA/ATL, but still you will be competing with HYS, Vandy and Duke grads and probably other T-14s with strong GA ties.

[GMasters5]

Surprised that no one has suggested Duke with some money. I know this is not lower top 20 but it should be OP's goal. If you have ties to FL you should be set. It appears UF/FSU/Miami would be most likely to place in FL, but if you are not sure you want FL, that may not be ideal. Emory may be an option if you want GA/ATL, but still you will be competing with HYS, Vandy and Duke grads and probably other T-14s with strong GA ties.

Hey, I'm looking at many T14 schools and Duke is one of them, but I was mainly wondering about how lower ranked schools fared in the GA/FL market and clerkship odds because they're the schools I will most likely be getting $$$$ at. Honestly, I'm open to working just about anywhere, I was just seeing what everyone thought the subject. Thanks btw!

[CanadianWolf]

Duke & Virginia should be target schools for one desiring placement in the South without sacrificing NYC biglaw & federal clerkship opportunities. Georgia with a substantial scholarship is a solid option if wanting to stay in Georgia, but not set on biglaw.
Of course, everything depends upon your LSAT & GPA numbers at this stage.

P.S. Duke or Virginia is all the prestige you'll need for serious consideration from top Atlanta firms.

[arklaw13]

P.S. Duke or Virginia is all the prestige you'll need for serious consideration from top Atlanta firms.

This is somewhat misleading. Yeah, ATL firms will hire from Duke and Virginia, but you will need top grades.

[baal hadad]

P.S. Duke or Virginia is all the prestige you'll need for serious consideration from top Atlanta firms.

This is somewhat misleading. Yeah, ATL firms will hire from Duke and Virginia, but you will need top grades.

This

[CanadianWolf]

Define "top grades" in this context. Thanks.

[cron1834]

No one is "hurt" that you "questioned the power of the T14". People are saying that T14 has a wider geographic sphere of influence than the super regionals you listed.

The fact remains that, despite the stronger influence of the T14, I doubt that any of the schools you listed provide you a good chance of practicing in Florida.

I have a hard time believing that a Cornell grad would place better in Florida than a UT/Vandy grad. They both have a shit chance.

That one guy is. And I know the T14 is stronger, I was just wondering "how strong" it is compared to the T15-20? I'm not solely looking at FL, that was like the third option in my hypothetical, but thanks for your response

Are you referring to me? I'm not trying to defend the honor of the T14 or anything, but it's clear empirically that the T14 has broader and deeper placement power than the regionals. There's a reason why 15-20 are referred to as "trap schools" - they have the lay prestige, the price tag, and often the medians of the lower T14s, but do not have the same placement power. You just can't consider UCLA if you don't want California or UT if you don't want Texas. You just can't.

I also wonder about clerkship percentages in this comparison. Nony, maybe you can speak to this - there has to be some self selection bias and geographic impact at work in these clerkship placement percentages, yeah? Imagine two kids with identical class ranks and geo ties, applying for the same district, so everything is identical except school. It seems crazy to me that the Cornell kid wouldn't have an advantage over the WUSTL or Vandy kid. Am I way off base? The percentage of top students interested in clerking has to very by school, I assume? WITHIN the T14 this applies as well - UVA might destroy Columbia in clerking percentage, but does anyone actually think that an identically ranked CLS student is behind UVA in the pecking order?

I'm not interested in clerking, but as a clueless 0L it's fun to discuss!

[A. Nony Mouse]

The thing is that the judges aren't identical. In a lot of cases, sure, the Cornell kid would have a better shot than the Vandy or WUSTL kid - unless the judge went to Vandy or WUSTL. Or went to a state school and thinks Ivies are overrated. Or has a law school pal teaching at Vandy or WUSTL who calls up to recommend their student. Or the judge interviews all three and just likes the Vandy kid best. Clerking isn't at all like LS admissions where you can plug in stats and be confident about the outcome.

[arklaw13]

Define "top grades" in this context. Thanks.

Who knows what exactly the cutoffs are. The point is they have pretty small class sizes and lots of people who want to be there. K&S only had 7 summers in its ATL office this year. Do you think they hired anyone near the median at UVA or Duke. Doubt it.

[CanadianWolf]

I don't know--that's why I asked.

[arklaw13]

I don't know--that's why I asked.

Someone at UVA could probably tell you. I think their CSO provides callback stats. Dunno about Duke.

[lawhopeful10]

Surprised that no one has suggested Duke with some money. I know this is not lower top 20 but it should be OP's goal. If you have ties to FL you should be set. It appears UF/FSU/Miami would be most likely to place in FL, but if you are not sure you want FL, that may not be ideal. Emory may be an option if you want GA/ATL, but still you will be competing with HYS, Vandy and Duke grads and probably other T-14s with strong GA ties.

Hey, I'm looking at many T14 schools and Duke is one of them, but I was mainly wondering about how lower ranked schools fared in the GA/FL market and clerkship odds because they're the schools I will most likely be getting $$$$ at. Honestly, I'm open to working just about anywhere, I was just seeing what everyone thought the subject. Thanks btw!

I go to one of UGA/FSU/UF and I strongly, strongly recommend against going. I finished near the top of my class and still feel like I'm fighting for my life to get a job. Rising 2L here about to do OCI. The stress of having such a low margin for error and not a lot of firms coming to your school sucks. Take time to study for the LSAT and try and get a T-14 with money.

[baal hadad]

No one is "hurt" that you "questioned the power of the T14". People are saying that T14 has a wider geographic sphere of influence than the super regionals you listed.

The fact remains that, despite the stronger influence of the T14, I doubt that any of the schools you listed provide you a good chance of practicing in Florida.

I have a hard time believing that a Cornell grad would place better in Florida than a UT/Vandy grad. They both have a shit chance.

That one guy is. And I know the T14 is stronger, I was just wondering "how strong" it is compared to the T15-20? I'm not solely looking at FL, that was like the third option in my hypothetical, but thanks for your response

Are you referring to me? I'm not trying to defend the honor of the T14 or anything, but it's clear empirically that the T14 has broader and deeper placement power than the regionals. There's a reason why 15-20 are referred to as "trap schools" - they have the lay prestige, the price tag, and often the medians of the lower T14s, but do not have the same placement power. You just can't consider UCLA if you don't want California or UT if you don't want Texas. You just can't.

I also wonder about clerkship percentages in this comparison. Nony, maybe you can speak to this - there has to be some self selection bias and geographic impact at work in these clerkship placement percentages, yeah? Imagine two kids with identical class ranks and geo ties, applying for the same district, so everything is identical except school. It seems crazy to me that the Cornell kid wouldn't have an advantage over the WUSTL or Vandy kid. Am I way off base? The percentage of top students interested in clerking has to very by school, I assume? WITHIN the T14 this applies as well - UVA might destroy Columbia in clerking percentage, but does anyone actually think that an identically ranked CLS student is behind UVA in the pecking order?

I'm not interested in clerking, but as a clueless 0L it's fun to discuss!

"Fun"

[cron1834]

The thing is that the judges aren't identical. In a lot of cases, sure, the Cornell kid would have a better shot than the Vandy or WUSTL kid - unless the judge went to Vandy or WUSTL. Or went to a state school and thinks Ivies are overrated. Or has a law school pal teaching at Vandy or WUSTL who calls up to recommend their student. Or the judge interviews all three and just likes the Vandy kid best. Clerking isn't at all like LS admissions where you can plug in stats and be confident about the outcome.

Thx. Sounds reasonable.

[GMasters5]

No one is "hurt" that you "questioned the power of the T14". People are saying that T14 has a wider geographic sphere of influence than the super regionals you listed.

The fact remains that, despite the stronger influence of the T14, I doubt that any of the schools you listed provide you a good chance of practicing in Florida.

I have a hard time believing that a Cornell grad would place better in Florida than a UT/Vandy grad. They both have a shit chance.

That one guy is. And I know the T14 is stronger, I was just wondering "how strong" it is compared to the T15-20? I'm not solely looking at FL, that was like the third option in my hypothetical, but thanks for your response

Are you referring to me? I'm not trying to defend the honor of the T14 or anything, but it's clear empirically that the T14 has broader and deeper placement power than the regionals. There's a reason why 15-20 are referred to as "trap schools" - they have the lay prestige, the price tag, and often the medians of the lower T14s, but do not have the same placement power. You just can't consider UCLA if you don't want California or UT if you don't want Texas. You just can't.

I also wonder about clerkship percentages in this comparison. Nony, maybe you can speak to this - there has to be some self selection bias and geographic impact at work in these clerkship placement percentages, yeah? Imagine two kids with identical class ranks and geo ties, applying for the same district, so everything is identical except school. It seems crazy to me that the Cornell kid wouldn't have an advantage over the WUSTL or Vandy kid. Am I way off base? The percentage of top students interested in clerking has to very by school, I assume? WITHIN the T14 this applies as well - UVA might destroy Columbia in clerking percentage, but does anyone actually think that an identically ranked CLS student is behind UVA in the pecking order?

I'm not interested in clerking, but as a clueless 0L it's fun to discuss!

No one is "hurt" that you "questioned the power of the T14". People are saying that T14 has a wider geographic sphere of influence than the super regionals you listed.

The fact remains that, despite the stronger influence of the T14, I doubt that any of the schools you listed provide you a good chance of practicing in Florida.

I have a hard time believing that a Cornell grad would place better in Florida than a UT/Vandy grad. They both have a shit chance.

That one guy is. And I know the T14 is stronger, I was just wondering "how strong" it is compared to the T15-20? I'm not solely looking at FL, that was like the third option in my hypothetical, but thanks for your response

Are you referring to me? I'm not trying to defend the honor of the T14 or anything, but it's clear empirically that the T14 has broader and deeper placement power than the regionals. There's a reason why 15-20 are referred to as "trap schools" - they have the lay prestige, the price tag, and often the medians of the lower T14s, but do not have the same placement power. You just can't consider UCLA if you don't want California or UT if you don't want Texas. You just can't.

I also wonder about clerkship percentages in this comparison. Nony, maybe you can speak to this - there has to be some self selection bias and geographic impact at work in these clerkship placement percentages, yeah? Imagine two kids with identical class ranks and geo ties, applying for the same district, so everything is identical except school. It seems crazy to me that the Cornell kid wouldn't have an advantage over the WUSTL or Vandy kid. Am I way off base? The percentage of top students interested in clerking has to very by school, I assume? WITHIN the T14 this applies as well - UVA might destroy Columbia in clerking percentage, but does anyone actually think that an identically ranked CLS student is behind UVA in the pecking order?

I'm not interested in clerking, but as a clueless 0L it's fun to discuss!

It is fun, I'm honestly just asking questions to get confirmation. I'm not saying the T14 isn't stronger, I was just wondering if the disparity between the T14 and T15-20 was really that vast. And I'm not sure if I was referring to you or not, but your last post was really helpful