Will anyone crack the top 14? Forum

[californiauser]

Some employers do care about USNWR because some clients care (see my previous post quoting Mike Spivey). Obviously there are better predictive sources when it comes to schools' placement power, but USNWR has at least some effect on hiring decisions.

Was Spivey's post forreal though? Cravath won't hire from NU or Cornell (which feeds into NYC)? I guess I was underestimating the preftige

they have young attorneys from both schools; they just don't go to their ocis

[patogordo]

Some employers do care about USNWR because some clients care (see my previous post quoting Mike Spivey). Obviously there are better predictive sources when it comes to schools' placement power, but USNWR has at least some effect on hiring decisions.

Was Spivey's post forreal though? Cravath won't hire from NU or Cornell (which feeds into NYC)? I guess I was underestimating the preftige

they have young attorneys from both schools; they just don't go to their ocis

wrong

[rad lulz]

,

[NYC-WVU]

Clients know what the brand name schools are

In house GCs (aka "the client") at f500 companies are lawyers too and they're not idiots

No one is saying they are idiots. But not everyone does work for f500 companies and/or the f500 companies don't have the budget to give a shit whether their lawyers went to brand name schools for all of their legal needs. So what happens when we're looking at a regional school. Loyola (Chicago) and DePaul used to be about the same in rankings 5 years ago. Now Loyola is much higher. Do midwestern recruiters and clients ignore this, because they know these local schools reputations? I assume they are influenced, at least somewhat.

[rpupkin]

No one is saying they are idiots. But not everyone does work for f500 companies and/or the f500 companies don't have the budget to give a shit whether their lawyers went to brand name schools for all of their legal needs. So what happens when we're looking at a regional school. Loyola (Chicago) and DePaul used to be about the same in rankings 5 years ago. Now Loyola is much higher. Do midwestern recruiters and clients ignore this, because they know these local schools reputations? I assume they are influenced, at least somewhat.

Likely yes. Why do you assume otherwise?

[NYC-WVU]

No one is saying they are idiots. But not everyone does work for f500 companies and/or the f500 companies don't have the budget to give a shit whether their lawyers went to brand name schools for all of their legal needs. So what happens when we're looking at a regional school. Loyola (Chicago) and DePaul used to be about the same in rankings 5 years ago. Now Loyola is much higher. Do midwestern recruiters and clients ignore this, because they know these local schools reputations? I assume they are influenced, at least somewhat.

Likely yes. Why do you assume otherwise?

Because people don't have the time, energy or necessity to double-check the USNWR. If you hire five first years annually, or better yet, you hire one every five years, it's much easier to just take USNWR's word for it that school X has been slipping. Obviously, if you have a good reason, you can override USNWR, but if you've historically recruited from one of five schools that are roughly equivalent, and USNWR is telling you that one of the schools has fallen off the deep end, why would you take the risk in doubting them?

[californiauser]

Some employers do care about USNWR because some clients care (see my previous post quoting Mike Spivey). Obviously there are better predictive sources when it comes to schools' placement power, but USNWR has at least some effect on hiring decisions.

Was Spivey's post forreal though? Cravath won't hire from NU or Cornell (which feeds into NYC)? I guess I was underestimating the preftige

they have young attorneys from both schools; they just don't go to their ocis

wrong

sorry, I think I must have been thinking about Watchell (or a similar firm) -- I remember seeing a link to of of the two's site that listed their OCI and it was only like 8 schools

[rayiner]

Some employers do care about USNWR because some clients care (see my previous post quoting Mike Spivey). Obviously there are better predictive sources when it comes to schools' placement power, but USNWR has at least some effect on hiring decisions.

Was Spivey's post forreal though? Cravath won't hire from NU or Cornell (which feeds into NYC)? I guess I was underestimating the preftige

they have young attorneys from both schools; they just don't go to their ocis

Cravath hired 3 associates from NU last year, more than from Michigan or Virginia or Duke (1 each). They hired 2 from Cornell. Nothing compared to the 14 from HLS or the 8 from NYU, however.

[rpupkin]

No one is saying they are idiots. But not everyone does work for f500 companies and/or the f500 companies don't have the budget to give a shit whether their lawyers went to brand name schools for all of their legal needs. So what happens when we're looking at a regional school. Loyola (Chicago) and DePaul used to be about the same in rankings 5 years ago. Now Loyola is much higher. Do midwestern recruiters and clients ignore this, because they know these local schools reputations? I assume they are influenced, at least somewhat.

Likely yes. Why do you assume otherwise?

Because people don't have the time, energy or necessity to double-check the USNWR. If you hire five first years annually, or better yet, you hire one every five years, it's much easier to just take USNWR's word for it that school X has been slipping. Obviously, if you have a good reason, you can override USNWR, but if you've historically recruited from one of five schools that are roughly equivalent, and USNWR is telling you that one of the schools has fallen off the deep end, why would you take the risk in doubting them?

I guess I just don't follow your reasoning. As you set up the question, you're talking about small-time recruiters in the midwest that hire from the local regional schools. Such recruiters would have regular contact with the local regional schools from which they hire. The recruiters are obviously familiar with the schools' programs and the quality of the schools' graduates. So why would they pay attention to the ranking system of a national magazine? If anything, it seems like small-time regional recruiters would be even less likely than "f500 companies" to care about the USNWR rankings.

[Ramius]

No one is saying they are idiots. But not everyone does work for f500 companies and/or the f500 companies don't have the budget to give a shit whether their lawyers went to brand name schools for all of their legal needs. So what happens when we're looking at a regional school. Loyola (Chicago) and DePaul used to be about the same in rankings 5 years ago. Now Loyola is much higher. Do midwestern recruiters and clients ignore this, because they know these local schools reputations? I assume they are influenced, at least somewhat.

Likely yes. Why do you assume otherwise?

Because people don't have the time, energy or necessity to double-check the USNWR. If you hire five first years annually, or better yet, you hire one every five years, it's much easier to just take USNWR's word for it that school X has been slipping. Obviously, if you have a good reason, you can override USNWR, but if you've historically recruited from one of five schools that are roughly equivalent, and USNWR is telling you that one of the schools has fallen off the deep end, why would you take the risk in doubting them?

This assumes people consult usnwr for their hiring decisions. I doubt they would do this considering they are likely looking for simple legal hiring and they'll take someone from a pile of apps based on what they understand of the local climate. So you think, for instance, a hiring committee (or just the guy hiring) cares at all whether his favorite applicant is from the local regional ranked #45 or #70? Do you think they're more likely to consult usnwr, or their current contacts looking for recommendations?

[luuma]

Will Brazil become the richest, most powerful country in the world? Will football fall to badminton? Will nurses make more than doctors? Will corn flakes regain its place as our most treasured breakfast cereal?

lawl festival

[Mal Reynolds]

Will Brazil become the richest, most powerful country in the world? Will football fall to badminton? Will nurses make more than doctors? Will corn flakes regain its place as our most treasured breakfast cereal?

lawl festival

Why did you bump a month old thread.

[luuma]

Will Brazil become the richest, most powerful country in the world? Will football fall to badminton? Will nurses make more than doctors? Will corn flakes regain its place as our most treasured breakfast cereal?

lawl festival

Why did you bump a month old thread.

calm down

[MistakenGenius]

Post removed.

[d cooper]

For those interested in how USNWR may affect hiring over time, Mike Spivey recorded a podcast with Scott Moss on that topic: http://spiveyconsulting.com/blog/podcas ... -rankings/.

The discussion about USNWR and hiring starts at 6:38.

[dwil770]

I was wondering which schools will move the most in USNWR rankings over the next ten years.
Will Yale drop to fifth, as many have predicted? Will Arizona State continue to rise?
More importantly, will UT, UCLA or Vandy crack the top 14. And if any of them do, what impact will it have on Duke, Northwestern, Cornell, Georgetown, etc.
What do you all think?

I'd have to disagree with you rad lulz, I think it is possible that Vandy/UT could become interchangeable with gulc in any given year. I think we'd start to look at things in a T13 way then though. But I think those schools could be #14.

[Clyde Frog]

The People's College of Law has a good shot to break through in this year.

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[03152016]

The People's College of Law has a good shot to break through in this year.

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This guy doesn't f around

Related thread for anyone interested: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 22&t=86431

[PDaddy]

There is no factual basis to say this is wrong, but I tend to disagree. The sense of hierarchy is more likely stemmed from the long-standing air of "preftige" that exists in law. You could argue that the original rankings that formed the original sense of hierarchy could continue to affect the hiring of partners nationwide, but I think this is even somewhat far-fetched. The T14 are what they are because they were considered elite before any quantifiable measure deemed them elite. There would be no feedback loop in that.

In other words, the rankings are a self-fulfilling prophesy, perpetuated in-part by the self-selection(s) of top students and firms, which are themselves created - to some degree - by their own self-fulfilling prophesies?

[joloyolo]

Cravath hires much more than top ten. Have offered 2 students at Emory each of the last 3 years, none have accepted (crazy, AMIRITE)

[PDaddy]

I was wondering which schools will move the most in USNWR rankings over the next ten years.
Will Yale drop to fifth, as many have predicted? Will Arizona State continue to rise?
More importantly, will UT, UCLA or Vandy crack the top 14. And if any of them do, what impact will it have on Duke, Northwestern, Cornell, Georgetown, etc.
What do you all think?

I'd have to disagree with you rad lulz, I think it is possible that Vandy/UT could become interchangeable with gulc in any given year. I think we'd start to look at things in a T13 way then though. But I think those schools could be #14.

The reasoning proffered for the creation of the "T14" - that a certain 14 schools have filled the top 14 spots since the inception of the USNWR Rankings - makes its existence arbitrary.

Paradoxically, the reasoning justifies an inference that the "T14" no longer exists, precisely because UT cracked it. In order to have a T14 construct, you need schools that are not T14 but looking to crack the T14; yet UT's inclusion in the T14 obviates the existence of the T14. It follows that we could just as easily argue for a "T18" which has generally included the oft bandied about UCLA, UT-Austin and Vandy, and USC. With the additions of Minnesota, WUSTL and GWU, we could argue for a "T20", based on similar reasoning.

While the T14 may be theoretically less penetrable than a T18, T20, T25, or T30, arguments for the latter constructs are no less valid, because the existence of the T14 was based on its perceived impenetrability. Furthermore, the T14 group is solely the creation of Bob Morse, whose rankings are arguably the most flawed outside of the Brennan Rankings.

Folks, there's no such thing as the T14 anymore, yet the job market has conformed to its existence because students allowed it to dictate their selection patterns. How do we break the cycle? Until we do, we are never going to be free to attend the schools we actually WANT to attend.

You cannot convince me that more than half of the students who attend Michigan want to be in Ann Arbor studying at Michigan, or in Chicago studying at Northwestern, etc..

All the T14 does is sort students into an arbitrary, and partially undeserving, self-selected employment pool that allows employers to be lazy! That deprives deserving students of opportunities to work their dream jobs, especially in this economy - one in which even decidedly regional employers now virtually ignore the best students at schools outside of the so-called T14.

[SFrost]

Folks, there's no such thing as the T14 anymore, yet the job market has conformed to its existence because students allowed it to dictate their selection patterns. How do we break the cycle? Until we do, we are never going to be free to attend the schools we actually WANT to attend.

There certainly is a T14. These are the national schools. Texas only places in Texas, UCLA/USC only place in California, Vandy places around Tennessee heavily.

Georgetown can send you to any major market. TLS ignores that Georgetown sends more people to big law than the entire class size of Yale.

T14 is not arbitrary. There's very clear distinctions between national and regional.

[El Pollito]

TLS Thread

[Poopface]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... SlE&gid=45

There are only 14 schools whose average rank, since the inception of us news rankings, is < 14, and that is the t14. What distinguishes these schools from others is the nationwide portability of the degree. Each t14 school gives you a brand name recognized and respected in cities throughout the country

[Clyde Frog]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... SlE&gid=45

There are only 14 schools whose average rank, since the inception of us news rankings, is < 14, and that is the t14. What distinguishes these schools from others is the nationwide portability of the degree. Each t14 school gives you a brand name recognized and respected in cities throughout the country

Thanks for posting this. It's interesting to see that Harvard was actually ranked 5th one year.