The Choice of a Lifetime Forum

[YehudaBauer]

I'd apply this ED somewhere this year. I'd probably chose Penn with your numbers and hope for NYC. With your numbers your chances are high. There is also UVA, Michigan, that you can ED to. I think that this is your best option.

Also, I wouldn't take the anxiety on exams into account in choosing a career. If you think you want to be a lawyer, then go to law school. You should get into a school worth going to. Obviously you'll have to work on it...

DO NOT ED TO PENN, UVA, OR MICHIGAN.

With a well-written app, you have an excellent shot at all three RD (especially Michigan).

If you wanna ED anywhere, pick one of CCN.

What would be the harm of ED'ing o Penn? I think I would like to go there over any of the other schools that I have a chance at. I don't think I could get into NYU, even with an ED. Therefore, I think it might be a good idea to ED to Penn just to be safe. Is there anything bad that can come of this?

You'd probably be screwing yourself out of $$ at Penn peer schools.

You think a 169, 3.8 is enough to get money at peer schools? I honestly wouldn't want to go to Michigan (too cold) and Virginia doesn't seem as good of a choice as Penn for someone who wants to work in NYC. Cornell sounds far too cold and boring and GTown/Duke don't seem like good choices for the NY area either. CCN are unobtainable and HYS even more so. I think Penn might be my best bet, even at a high price.

[Tiago Splitter]

I don't think you'll get Penn with a 169/3.8 with or without ED. Below both medians.

[20130312]

CCN isn't unobtainable if you retake.

[HeavenWood]

I don't think you'll get Penn with a 169/3.8 with or without ED. Below both medians.

I was under the impression his GPA was a 3.9. In that case, you're most likely correct.

[YehudaBauer]

I don't think you'll get Penn with a 169/3.8 with or without ED. Below both medians.

I was under the impression his GPA was a 3.9. In that case, you're most likely correct.

Idk what gave you that impression, but I always assumed I could not get into Penn. I have no idea how much ED helps, but in my original post, I asked if I should go to (1) The best school I could get into (Michigan? Cornell? Georgetown?); (2) A good school with a decent scholarship (Fordham? BU? BC? GW?); or, (3) A lower-ranked school with a full-ride (St. John's? Rutgers? Cardozo?)

Of those options and those options only (which means retake is not an option) which should I choose?

[HeavenWood]

I don't think you'll get Penn with a 169/3.8 with or without ED. Below both medians.

I was under the impression his GPA was a 3.9. In that case, you're most likely correct.

Idk what gave you that impression, but I always assumed I could not get into Penn. I have no idea how much ED helps, but in my original post, I asked if I should go to (1) The best school I could get into (Michigan? Cornell? Georgetown?); (2) A good school with a decent scholarship (Fordham? BU? BC? GW?); or, (3) A lower-ranked school with a full-ride (St. John's? Rutgers? Cardozo?)

Of those options and those options only (which means retake is not an option) which should I choose?

Best school you can likely get into is Michigan, probably with some $.

[YehudaBauer]

I don't think you'll get Penn with a 169/3.8 with or without ED. Below both medians.

I was under the impression his GPA was a 3.9. In that case, you're most likely correct.

Idk what gave you that impression, but I always assumed I could not get into Penn. I have no idea how much ED helps, but in my original post, I asked if I should go to (1) The best school I could get into (Michigan? Cornell? Georgetown?); (2) A good school with a decent scholarship (Fordham? BU? BC? GW?); or, (3) A lower-ranked school with a full-ride (St. John's? Rutgers? Cardozo?)

Of those options and those options only (which means retake is not an option) which should I choose?

Best school you can likely get into is Michigan, probably with some $.

Hmm...I am not terribly interested in going there. Does it really provide significantly greater employment opportunities than Cornell or Georgetown for the NYC area?

[HeavenWood]

Idk what gave you that impression, but I always assumed I could not get into Penn. I have no idea how much ED helps, but in my original post, I asked if I should go to (1) The best school I could get into (Michigan? Cornell? Georgetown?); (2) A good school with a decent scholarship (Fordham? BU? BC? GW?); or, (3) A lower-ranked school with a full-ride (St. John's? Rutgers? Cardozo?)

Of those options and those options only (which means retake is not an option) which should I choose?

Best school you can likely get into is Michigan, probably with some $.

Hmm...I am not terribly interested in going there. Does it really provide significantly greater employment opportunities than Cornell or Georgetown for the NYC area?

Georgetown, most definitely. Cornell, yes to a far lesser extent. At equal costs, I would definitely lean Michigan, but Cornell would probably throw even more $$ your way.

[YehudaBauer]

Idk what gave you that impression, but I always assumed I could not get into Penn. I have no idea how much ED helps, but in my original post, I asked if I should go to (1) The best school I could get into (Michigan? Cornell? Georgetown?); (2) A good school with a decent scholarship (Fordham? BU? BC? GW?); or, (3) A lower-ranked school with a full-ride (St. John's? Rutgers? Cardozo?)

Of those options and those options only (which means retake is not an option) which should I choose?

Best school you can likely get into is Michigan, probably with some $.

Hmm...I am not terribly interested in going there. Does it really provide significantly greater employment opportunities than Cornell or Georgetown for the NYC area?

Georgetown, most definitely. Cornell, yes to a far lesser extent. At equal costs, I would definitely lean Michigan, but Cornell would probably throw even more $$ your way.

So then this is what I will do: I will apply to the whole T14 from CNN down. I will apply to every Northeastern school in the T50. I will apply to every NY metro area school in the T100. The question is, should I ED anywhere and is the scholarship I can expect from a place like Cornell worth going there over a place like Penn for "sticker"?

[HeavenWood]

Best school you can likely get into is Michigan, probably with some $.

So then this is what I will do: I will apply to the whole T14 from CNN down. I will apply to every Northeastern school in the T50. I will apply to every NY metro area school in the T100. The question is, should I ED anywhere and is the scholarship I can expect from a place like Cornell worth going there over a place like Penn for "sticker"?

Given your GPA, there really isn't anywhere worth worth EDing to. I also think applying to every Northeastern school in the T50 is overkill. Just stick to CCN on down through the T14 and NYC-centric regional schools like Fordham and Cardozo. No need to apply any lower than Dozo, since you're almost guaranteed a free ride from there. May as well apply to GW/BU/BC as well, though given your career goals, Fordham would definitely be the best choice among those, barring a sizable disparity in scholly offer.

[YehudaBauer]

Given my GPA? What makes it un-conducive to ED? Also, if I applied to Fordham/GW/BU/BC as well as all the T14, then I would be applying to pretty much all the T50 in the Northeast.

[HeavenWood]

Given my GPA? What makes it un-conducive to ED? Also, if I applied to Fordham/GW/BU/BC as well as all the T14, then I would be applying to pretty much all the T50 in the Northeast.

Below both medians, as others have pointed out.

[YehudaBauer]

Given my GPA? What makes it un-conducive to ED? Also, if I applied to Fordham/GW/BU/BC as well as all the T14, then I would be applying to pretty much all the T50 in the Northeast.

Below both medians, as others have pointed out.

Where's your evidence that being below both medians eliminates you from consideration? Also, where is your evidence that I will be below both medians for the year in which I apply? I thought the "conventional wisdom" was that it will be easier to get into LS next year because of less applications.

[Tiago Splitter]

Given my GPA? What makes it un-conducive to ED? Also, if I applied to Fordham/GW/BU/BC as well as all the T14, then I would be applying to pretty much all the T50 in the Northeast.

Below both medians, as others have pointed out.

Where's your evidence that being below both medians eliminates you from consideration? Also, where is your evidence that I will be below both medians for the year in which I apply? I thought the "conventional wisdom" was that it will be easier to get into LS next year because of less applications.

Here's your evidence:

http://penn.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats

Not a lot of green in the 169 column until you get over a 3.9.

Penn's medians have stayed pretty constant in recent years. It would be an upset if the GPA median dropped all the way to 3.8 and an absolute stunner if the LSAT median dropped below 170.

[YehudaBauer]

Given my GPA? What makes it un-conducive to ED? Also, if I applied to Fordham/GW/BU/BC as well as all the T14, then I would be applying to pretty much all the T50 in the Northeast.

Below both medians, as others have pointed out.

Where's your evidence that being below both medians eliminates you from consideration? Also, where is your evidence that I will be below both medians for the year in which I apply? I thought the "conventional wisdom" was that it will be easier to get into LS next year because of less applications.

Here's your evidence:

http://penn.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats

Not a lot of green in the 169 column until you get over a 3.9.

Penn's medians have stayed pretty constant in recent years. It would be an upset if the GPA median dropped all the way to 3.8 and an absolute stunner if the LSAT median dropped below 170.

Just a minor issue: what makes that website reliable? Does everyone who applies put their stats on that website? Does that website verify that the information provided is correct? How does that website address the difference created in years where LS applications are down significantly?

Just a few ambiguities to consider before considering something firm "evidence" of anything. Also, for the record, I never expected to gain admittance to Penn. Merely, I am postulating that said admittance may be possible, given the mitigating factors that I have established.

[Tiago Splitter]

Just a minor issue: what makes that website reliable? Does everyone who applies put their stats on that website? Does that website verify that the information provided is correct? How does that website address the difference created in years where LS applications are down significantly?

Just a few ambiguities to consider before considering something firm "evidence" of anything. Also, for the record, I never expected to gain admittance to Penn. Merely, I am postulating that said admittance may be possible, given the mitigating factors that I have established.

You are confusing evidence with definitive proof. LSN certainly does not contain the stats of everyone who applied, but it provides evidence for the claim that getting in as a non-URM with numbers below both medians is exceptionally difficult.

But by all means, apply and see what happens. If you don't want to use your ED anywhere else then there is nothing wrong with using it on Penn. But don't expect to get in. Given your numbers Michigan is likely to best school you can get in to. You could also gun for straight As for a year and try to push your GPA up to the UVA/Penn medians and wait a year to apply.

EDIT: I also don't understand the bolded.

[HeavenWood]

Below both medians, as others have pointed out.

Where's your evidence that being below both medians eliminates you from consideration? Also, where is your evidence that I will be below both medians for the year in which I apply? I thought the "conventional wisdom" was that it will be easier to get into LS next year because of less applications.

Here's your evidence:

http://penn.lawschoolnumbers.com/stats

Not a lot of green in the 169 column until you get over a 3.9.

Penn's medians have stayed pretty constant in recent years. It would be an upset if the GPA median dropped all the way to 3.8 and an absolute stunner if the LSAT median dropped below 170.

Just a minor issue: what makes that website reliable? Does everyone who applies put their stats on that website? Does that website verify that the information provided is correct? How does that website address the difference created in years where LS applications are down significantly?

Just a few ambiguities to consider before considering something firm "evidence" of anything. Also, for the record, I never expected to gain admittance to Penn. Merely, I am postulating that said admittance may be possible, given the mitigating factors that I have established.

You have no "mitigating factors." You are not a special snowflake as far as top lawl skools are concerned. Who you are as a person would come more into play if your numbers could help Penn out, but they simply can't. As for LSN, yes the data is self-reported, and no, it should not be taken as complete gospel. However, there is a large enough sample size to confirm that Penn, like just about every other American law school, is focused on numbers first and foremost. If you can up your GPA and are willing to wait a year, that's another story entirely.

[YehudaBauer]

When did I ever claim to be a special snowflake? I merely stated that I may be among the 25% to 50% of the Penn class that has a lower GPA than 3.85 and a lower LSAT than 170. I would hardly call nearly half of Penn's class "special snowflakes". Of course, the numbers are the starting point, but my numbers are rather close to the Penn averages. That's not to say that I expect to get in. There is surely a greater chance that I don't get in than that I do, but I assume there is still a rather decent chance that I get in, especially if I ED. All of these conclusions operate under the assumption that the school's reported statistics are correct.

[top30man]

When did I ever claim to be a special snowflake? I merely stated that I may be among the 25% to 50% of the Penn class that has a lower GPA than 3.85 and a lower LSAT than 170. I would hardly call nearly half of Penn's class "special snowflakes". Of course, the numbers are the starting point, but my numbers are rather close to the Penn averages. That's not to say that I expect to get in. There is surely a greater chance that I don't get in than that I do, but I assume there is still a rather decent chance that I get in, especially if I ED. All of these conclusions operate under the assumption that the school's reported statistics are correct.

If you are below both medians even ED will not help you unless urm

[YehudaBauer]

When did I ever claim to be a special snowflake? I merely stated that I may be among the 25% to 50% of the Penn class that has a lower GPA than 3.85 and a lower LSAT than 170. I would hardly call nearly half of Penn's class "special snowflakes". Of course, the numbers are the starting point, but my numbers are rather close to the Penn averages. That's not to say that I expect to get in. There is surely a greater chance that I don't get in than that I do, but I assume there is still a rather decent chance that I get in, especially if I ED. All of these conclusions operate under the assumption that the school's reported statistics are correct.

If you are below both medians even ED will not help you unless urm

Is there irrefutable evidence for this assertion?

[Tiago Splitter]

When did I ever claim to be a special snowflake? I merely stated that I may be among the 25% to 50% of the Penn class that has a lower GPA than 3.85 and a lower LSAT than 170. I would hardly call nearly half of Penn's class "special snowflakes". Of course, the numbers are the starting point, but my numbers are rather close to the Penn averages. That's not to say that I expect to get in. There is surely a greater chance that I don't get in than that I do, but I assume there is still a rather decent chance that I get in, especially if I ED. All of these conclusions operate under the assumption that the school's reported statistics are correct.

Very few non urm applicants below both medians get in. Its not as if the half of the class with an above median lsat also have an above median gpa. Seriously dude, take an objective look at lsn. People with a 170 can get in with a 3.5 gpa, but people with a 169 need a 3.9. This is how it works at almost every school. Please understand that your chances are not "rather decent."

[Tiago Splitter]

If you think you have a decent shot at penn why not just go all in on Stanford? Medians are almost the same.

[top30man]

When did I ever claim to be a special snowflake? I merely stated that I may be among the 25% to 50% of the Penn class that has a lower GPA than 3.85 and a lower LSAT than 170. I would hardly call nearly half of Penn's class "special snowflakes". Of course, the numbers are the starting point, but my numbers are rather close to the Penn averages. That's not to say that I expect to get in. There is surely a greater chance that I don't get in than that I do, but I assume there is still a rather decent chance that I get in, especially if I ED. All of these conclusions operate under the assumption that the school's reported statistics are correct.

If you are below both medians even ED will not help you unless urm

Is there irrefutable evidence for this assertion?

Rejected at penn Ed with near identical stats. Wl at UVA. As tiago said, people with low gpas that get in the to have high lsats to counter and vice versa.

[Kring345]

Any suggestions for "reach" schools? I've checked LSN. Michigan and Duke seem to be the highest attainable. Berkeley is weird, but I just really couldn't go there even if I got in. Shouldn't I be worried about money? Those top schools are very expensive and I probably wouldn't get a scholarship.

TL;DR any of the thread, but I got Columbia, Berk, GULC, Cornell and Mich with a 3.8 / 168. I got WL'd at Harvard, NYU, Penn, Chi, UVA. But Im a veteran, so factor that in. Just trying to give you some perspective on your scores, since we are close. But I would have killed a small village for 2 extra points on the LSAT. A lot of those WLs would have been acceptances.

Also, yes, take a year off.

[HeavenWood]

Any suggestions for "reach" schools? I've checked LSN. Michigan and Duke seem to be the highest attainable. Berkeley is weird, but I just really couldn't go there even if I got in. Shouldn't I be worried about money? Those top schools are very expensive and I probably wouldn't get a scholarship.

TL;DR any of the thread, but I got Columbia, Berk, GULC, Cornell and Mich with a 3.8 / 168. I got WL'd at Harvard, NYU, Penn, Chi, UVA. But Im a veteran, so factor that in. Just trying to give you some perspective on your scores, since we are close. But I would have killed a small village for 2 extra points on the LSAT. A lot of those WLs would have been acceptances.

Also, yes, take a year off.

You're also a USMC combat vet (thank you for your service btw ). The OP is not.