I'm not flaming but I have a legitimate question... Forum

[romothesavior]

I think advice to consider PhD rather than JD is actually very legitimate. If you are hell bent on actually doing REAL client-based legal work with contracts, briefs, transactions, etc then you may be less inclined to pursue PhD work. But, if you love to write, argue, pontificate, research, and create new ideas, then go get a PhD in POLICY!!!!! It would be SOOOOO FUN!!! And, they might even PAY YOU to participate in the program! And, do you realize how awesome it is to get paid to write about your ideas? Further, when you want something a little more legal-esque, you can write a grant! This is a very legit alternative if you think you can get into a top school with $ and are a little more risk averse! Finally, you get your phd and realize that, "damn, I still think I really want to be a lawyer and do REAL client-based legal work".... well, now you have a PhD and you will surely get into a top program and increase your chances of gainful employment upon graduation.... And, you have a fallback now!

lolwut

[DoubleChecks]

This thread is just incredibly lulzy. And now that we've gotten on to "a love of academia" as a reason to go to law school, it has completely jumped the shark.

Similarly, a passion for a certain area of the law is great and everything, but unless that area of the law is personal injury or personal bankruptcy, I wouldn't go to law school because of it. And if your passions are actually in those areas, I'd watch fewer Peter Francis Geraci commercials.

It's professional school. "Who are [we] to serve as detractors"? "[We]" are apparently people with the ability to do basic risk-reward calculations.

No, that's not accurate. First of all, you're taking a blip of what I said and turning it into this "the love of academia is the only reason why I'm going to law school"... which is not what I said. It's actually not even close. I simply said that loving academia makes any type of school that much more enjoyable.

Additionally, you have no idea the type of research or quantification of risk that anyone else on this board has undertaken. Thus you are not the indicated person to try and deter anyone from going to law school.

Your first point (bolded) is a fair statement in that I don't believe that many people can shoot it down. I think it was simply misconstrued to mean you wanted to go to law school solely to pursue the academic route (bad idea), when you may have just meant the love of learning will make law school some bit more interesting to you. imo, fair statement.

Your second point strikes me as an odd one. I don't know if people are repeatedly questioning your dedication to research...so I am not sure why you so vehemently (and repeatedly) defend against it. The comments that are somewhat related and probably just due to overlap with the first point (those thinking you want to go to law school just for academia = they assume you have not done your research).

[JoeMo]

This thread is just incredibly lulzy. And now that we've gotten on to "a love of academia" as a reason to go to law school, it has completely jumped the shark.

Similarly, a passion for a certain area of the law is great and everything, but unless that area of the law is personal injury or personal bankruptcy, I wouldn't go to law school because of it. And if your passions are actually in those areas, I'd watch fewer Peter Francis Geraci commercials.

It's professional school. "Who are [we] to serve as detractors"? "[We]" are apparently people with the ability to do basic risk-reward calculations.

No, that's not accurate. First of all, you're taking a blip of what I said and turning it into this "the love of academia is the only reason why I'm going to law school"... which is not what I said. It's actually not even close. I simply said that loving academia makes any type of school that much more enjoyable.

Additionally, you have no idea the type of research or quantification of risk that anyone else on this board has undertaken. Thus you are not the indicated person to try and deter anyone from going to law school.

Your first point (bolded) is a fair statement in that I don't believe that many people can shoot it down. I think it was simply misconstrued to mean you wanted to go to law school solely to pursue the academic route (bad idea), when you may have just meant the love of learning will make law school some bit more interesting to you. imo, fair statement.

Your second point strikes me as an odd one. I don't know if people are repeatedly questioning your dedication to research...so I am not sure why you so vehemently (and repeatedly) defend against it. The comments that are somewhat related and probably just due to overlap with the first point (those thinking you want to go to law school just for academia = they assume you have not done your research).

The first point - thanks for reading it as I intended.

The second - isn't so much as it directs to me but going back to the OP about how it seems like there is 1 group of people on TLS that rubs me the wrong way. Those that believe that it's HYS or bust and are constantly preaching about it. For example... so many in this thread and in the Warning to all 0L's thread. I just don't get the mentality. Why make it your personal mission (not you personally, the aggregate and hypothetical you) to go on a crusade against law school and detract as many people from attending? That's the mentality I can't align with. There are some very thoughtful posters that feel wary of the legal market and I appreciate that and would be stupid not to have considered this. But there are others that seem like their one mission in life is to stop everyone from going to law school. The point of my original post was "what is to you? why do you have to be the one that saves everyone else from the impending doom (imaginary or otherwise) of law school?" So, I guess the answer at this point is, we'll never know what motivates people to come on here and pursue such an agenda.

[SisterRayVU]

The second - isn't so much as it directs to me but going back to the OP about how it seems like there is 1 group of people on TLS that rubs me the wrong way. Those that believe that it's HYS or bust and are constantly preaching about it. For example... so many in this thread and in the Warning to all 0L's thread. I just don't get the mentality. Why make it your personal mission (not you personally, the aggregate and hypothetical you) to go on a crusade against law school and detract as many people from attending? That's the mentality I can't align with. There are some very thoughtful posters that feel wary of the legal market and I appreciate that and would be stupid not to have considered this. But there are others that seem like their one mission in life is to stop everyone from going to law school. The point of my original post was "what is to you? why do you have to be the one that saves everyone else from the impending doom (imaginary or otherwise) of law school?" So, I guess the answer at this point is, we'll never know what motivates people to come on here and pursue such an agenda.

Because even as not even a 0L, I'm not stupid enough to think this is a smart risk. And there are people who think it is. Or think that it's okay because they'll land on an 80k a year job outta graduation if they strike out w/ BigLaw despite there not really being a salary for that. Lots of people don't understand how much 200k is when it's debt. If you make 40-60k, you'll barely be paying interest in it. I mean, fuck, Obama barely paid off his loans by the time he won the election. And still, a JD is thought of by many people, even those aware of the shitty market, as a good prospect for a (any) job.

There's people in TTs and TTTs telling me that the numbers are bullshit wrt to employment stats and it's just about who you know anyway. People who are right smack in the middle of all of this outright IGNORE facts. Maybe it's best if we hammer it over and over again that for a majority of JD students, the ROI is negative.

[Antilles Haven]

Why make it your personal mission (not you personally, the aggregate and hypothetical you) to go on a crusade against law school and detract as many people from attending?

Bro. Nobody on this site is realistically trying to lower the total number of law school grads. The classes are going to be filled one way or another, we're not affecting population of future lawyers in the world. But if someone comes on this site and asks "What do you think about this option?" And 85% of people who choose that option end up in a horrible position that they regret and wish they could take back, it would be much more of a dick move not to tell them what kind of prospects they're looking at.

[LawSchoolChampion]

The second - isn't so much as it directs to me but going back to the OP about how it seems like there is 1 group of people on TLS that rubs me the wrong way. Those that believe that it's HYS or bust and are constantly preaching about it. For example... so many in this thread and in the Warning to all 0L's thread. I just don't get the mentality. Why make it your personal mission (not you personally, the aggregate and hypothetical you) to go on a crusade against law school and detract as many people from attending? That's the mentality I can't align with. There are some very thoughtful posters that feel wary of the legal market and I appreciate that and would be stupid not to have considered this. But there are others that seem like their one mission in life is to stop everyone from going to law school. The point of my original post was "what is to you? why do you have to be the one that saves everyone else from the impending doom (imaginary or otherwise) of law school?" So, I guess the answer at this point is, we'll never know what motivates people to come on here and pursue such an agenda.

I have to agree with the responses of the posters above me. I haven't seen many people be outlandish in their statements (of course, there are a few). If someone asks whether or not a 2.8 and a 156 are great credentials for law school, the answer is no.

The phrase that resonates is, "No place that will accept you is worth attending."

That, for the most part, is true. Maybe that person will get a job...maybe in the legal field...but it certainly won't be the 160,000k salary...and if their law school education will cost 150k, they need to understand it will not be easy. To be honest, not even worth doing.

With that said, if your dream is to be a public defender...MAYBE there is some intrinsic value in law school - but even then, there are plenty of more qualified law school graduates who also want your dream job.

Overall, it just isn't worth it nowadays for the TTT schools, and that is what honest people tell interested applicants (even if they are not the most kind).

Now, for the people claiming T14 or bust...well...that's the wrong mentality. You can easily be successful at any T1 and some T2's.

[JoeMo]

The second - isn't so much as it directs to me but going back to the OP about how it seems like there is 1 group of people on TLS that rubs me the wrong way. Those that believe that it's HYS or bust and are constantly preaching about it. For example... so many in this thread and in the Warning to all 0L's thread. I just don't get the mentality. Why make it your personal mission (not you personally, the aggregate and hypothetical you) to go on a crusade against law school and detract as many people from attending? That's the mentality I can't align with. There are some very thoughtful posters that feel wary of the legal market and I appreciate that and would be stupid not to have considered this. But there are others that seem like their one mission in life is to stop everyone from going to law school. The point of my original post was "what is to you? why do you have to be the one that saves everyone else from the impending doom (imaginary or otherwise) of law school?" So, I guess the answer at this point is, we'll never know what motivates people to come on here and pursue such an agenda.

I have to agree with the responses of the posters above me. I haven't seen many people be outlandish in their statements (of course, there are a few). If someone asks whether or not a 2.8 and a 156 are great credentials for law school, the answer is no.

The phrase that resonates is, "No place that will accept you is worth attending."

That, for the most part, is true. Maybe that person will get a job...maybe in the legal field...but it certainly won't be the 160,000k salary...and if their law school education will cost 150k, they need to understand it will not be easy. To be honest, not even worth doing.

With that said, if your dream is to be a public defender...MAYBE there is some intrinsic value in law school - but even then, there are plenty of more qualified law school graduates who also want your dream job.

Overall, it just isn't worth it nowadays for the TTT schools, and that is what honest people tell interested applicants (even if they are not the most kind).

Now, for the people claiming T14 or bust...well...that's the wrong mentality. You can easily be successful at any T1 and some T2's.

This I definitely agree with. I guess I'm more directing this at the Warning to 0L thread which is the most pointless and least well intentioned thread. ITT people do make valid points and I can appreciate that. As a N00B it seemed like many more people were into the level of negativity I'm referring to then your line of thinking which I completely agree with.

[NiccoloA]

The other part of the problem is that there are no jobs. If you come out of a TTT making 40k you are damn lucky.

No doubt. I'm assuming post-ITE though

It seems like pre-ITE, there was overhiring and over lavishness. Didn't they used to take SAs around town on limos and take them out on the town and have CBs while getting box seats at baseball games? You didn't have to worry about getting an offer rescinded or getting laid off because it didn't happen. I think it's safe to say that things like that aren't going to happen again and you won't see such rampant hiring even if we went back to early 2000s level simply because there wouldn't be enough jobs to warrant it.

Things will get better but it won't be like they were for a very long time.

One man's over-hiring is another man's good economy.

To me, it just sounds like a good economy.


Opulence, we had it. We lost it. Now we want it back. That's the nature of economies.

[vanwinkle]

Haha, bankruptcy, tax law, and criminal law have an alright outlook in this economy (they might not have great paying jobs, but there will probably be jobs).

Bankruptcy because people are going bankrupt, tax law because they will try to cheat on their taxes, and criminal law because when the economy goes rotten, the crime rates will rise, lol.

Even this is wrong. Rising crime doesn't translate to more criminal law jobs. Budget cuts are prompting layoffs and hiring freezes at many DA and PD offices nationwide. All this talk about how taxes are burdening our economy and we need deficit reduction to recover? That's just making the situation worse since it further drives budget reductions during the times public resources are needed most. Even the DOJ has drastically slashed hiring for the near future, and it's not exactly because federal crimes are at an all-time low.

Hell, look at the city of Topeka, Kansas. They have budget overruns like everyone else right now, and higher crime than their prosecutors can handle. What was their solution? Decriminalize domestic violence. Problem solved, you don't need prosecutors for those cases anymore since it's no longer a crime!

People are giving warnings on this site because the legal hiring market is in chaos. Even public interest employers like DAs and PDs are conducting mass layoffs for the first time in decades. It doesn't matter how much interest you have in the law, you have to seriously and realistically evaluate the schools you could attend and the probability of finding work upon graduation. Right now, for most people at most law schools, that probability is actually extremely low.

There are some extremists saying "don't go to law school, period", but the bulk of the information on this site is to inform people and just make sure they know what they're getting into. It's still their own choice whether or not to go. They just shouldn't say nobody warned them if it was an obviously bad idea... which, these days, it often is.

[DoubleChecks]

Haha, bankruptcy, tax law, and criminal law have an alright outlook in this economy (they might not have great paying jobs, but there will probably be jobs).

Bankruptcy because people are going bankrupt, tax law because they will try to cheat on their taxes, and criminal law because when the economy goes rotten, the crime rates will rise, lol.

Even this is wrong. Rising crime doesn't translate to more criminal law jobs. Budget cuts are prompting layoffs and hiring freezes at many DA and PD offices nationwide. All this talk about how taxes are burdening our economy and we need deficit reduction to recover? That's just making the situation worse since it further drives budget reductions during the times public resources are needed most. Even the DOJ has drastically slashed hiring for the near future, and it's not exactly because federal crimes are at an all-time low.

Hell, look at the city of Topeka, Kansas. They have budget overruns like everyone else right now, and higher crime than their prosecutors can handle. What was their solution? Decriminalize domestic violence. Problem solved, you don't need prosecutors for those cases anymore since it's no longer a crime!

People are giving warnings on this site because the legal hiring market is in chaos. Even public interest employers like DAs and PDs are conducting mass layoffs for the first time in decades. It doesn't matter how much interest you have in the law, you have to seriously and realistically evaluate the schools you could attend and the probability of finding work upon graduation. Right now, for most people at most law schools, that probability is actually extremely low.

There are some extremists saying "don't go to law school, period", but the bulk of the information on this site is to inform people and just make sure they know what they're getting into. It's still their own choice whether or not to go. They just shouldn't say nobody warned them if it was an obviously bad idea... which, these days, it often is.

Quoted for Truf

[sdwhodat]

Haha, bankruptcy, tax law, and criminal law have an alright outlook in this economy (they might not have great paying jobs, but there will probably be jobs).

Bankruptcy because people are going bankrupt, tax law because they will try to cheat on their taxes, and criminal law because when the economy goes rotten, the crime rates will rise, lol.

Even this is wrong. Rising crime doesn't translate to more criminal law jobs. Budget cuts are prompting layoffs and hiring freezes at many DA and PD offices nationwide. All this talk about how taxes are burdening our economy and we need deficit reduction to recover? That's just making the situation worse since it further drives budget reductions during the times public resources are needed most. Even the DOJ has drastically slashed hiring for the near future, and it's not exactly because federal crimes are at an all-time low.

Hell, look at the city of Topeka, Kansas. They have budget overruns like everyone else right now, and higher crime than their prosecutors can handle. What was their solution? Decriminalize domestic violence. Problem solved, you don't need prosecutors for those cases anymore since it's no longer a crime!

People are giving warnings on this site because the legal hiring market is in chaos. Even public interest employers like DAs and PDs are conducting mass layoffs for the first time in decades. It doesn't matter how much interest you have in the law, you have to seriously and realistically evaluate the schools you could attend and the probability of finding work upon graduation. Right now, for most people at most law schools, that probability is actually extremely low.

There are some extremists saying "don't go to law school, period", but the bulk of the information on this site is to inform people and just make sure they know what they're getting into. It's still their own choice whether or not to go. They just shouldn't say nobody warned them if it was an obviously bad idea... which, these days, it often is.

I was making a joke, lol.

[prezidentv8]

EL
OH
EL

[vanwinkle]

I was making a joke, lol.

I know, but there are people who seriously think that way, and it's relevant.