Is a third/forth tier law school even worth going to? Forum

[Me-a Culpa]

Idaho is a TTT?

[nyknicks]

i can't believe this conversation is still going, lol.

twss.

[RP1983]

A'nold. I will be attending Widener this fall, and I am actually choosing it over Suffolk due to the location. I am wondering why you would say that my legal career is over if I choose this. I was under the impression that Widener is a better T4 school as compared to the others.

As far as this thread is concerned, I think there is a lot of truth and BS involved in it. Certainly if you want to practice big law, it helps to go to a T1 school. Big time. But I believe it can be done from a T4 or T3 school, providing that you are at the very top of your class. Obviously, the chances are much less but it definitely can be done. My take on it is that a successful person is going to be successful whether they are at T4 or T1. An unsuccessful person will be unsuccessful whether they go to a T4 or T1. It comes from within. That being said, if I get the chance to transfer to a Top 14 school, I would obviously take that opporunity. I also regret wasting literally all of my time in Undergrad drinking since it clearly hurt my chances of getting into a better school. Going to a T1 school means you have a much better chance of being successful, but at a T4 school you still have a chance.

To OP, if a T4 or T3 school is your only choice, and you really want to be a lawyer, I would tell you to go for it and do whatever it takes to succeed.

[vanwinkle]

Certainly if you want to practice big law, it helps to go to a T1 school. Big time. But I believe it can be done from a T4 or T3 school, providing that you are at the very top of your class.

Two problems with this:

1) 100% of people at a T4 are going to want to be at the top 1% of the class so they're employable when they graduate. Only 1% can do it. That means that at any given time 99% of the people attending are going to be disappointed.

2) ITE even the #1-ranked person at T4s are going to have a very rough time and face a lot of disappointment in many markets.

What you believe is possible doesn't matter. What matters is what is actually possible, and ITE it's barely possible even from lower T1 and from T2 schools to get BigLaw employment right now. People at TTTs and T4 are largely SOL right now regarding BigLaw, and that's reality whether you believe it or not.

My take on it is that a successful person is going to be successful whether they are at T4 or T1. An unsuccessful person will be unsuccessful whether they go to a T4 or T1. It comes from within.

The ability to succeed in law school comes from within. The ability to become employed after law school comes from how willing legal employers are to hire someone graduating from your school. If they won't hire anyone from a T4 no matter how well they do, what you "have within" means nothing. The reality of the legal market is that success in terms of employment opportunity is significantly affected by where you go, and that while it's certainly possible for someone to fail at both a T4 and a T1, the system in place makes it much, much easier for the person at the T1 to succeed.

Going to a T1 school means you have a much better chance of being successful, but at a T4 school you still have a chance.

ITE this may seriously not be true, especially not if you have to accrue a massive amount of debt in order to go to that school.

[romothesavior]

As always, vanwinkle is spot on. I'm so sick of people making the, "Its possible to make biglaw from a TTT!" argument. Yeah, its also possible for me to get drafted into the NBA, win the lottery, and get hit by a car today. That doesn't mean I should participate in the draft workouts, spend all my money on lotto tickets, or stay in the house all day for fear of getting killed by a car.

People shouldn't act on what is possible, but should act based on what is realistic and attainable, especially when there are hundreds of thousands of dollars on the table and 3 years of your life being sacrificed. Going to a TTT with big law aspirations is ridiculous.

[Wooster33]

People at TTTs and T4 are largely SOL right now regarding BigLaw, and that's reality whether you believe it or not.

While you were overly pessimistic in your post, this is really true. However, top of the class at a TTT is still going to place well in its local market, and some of those jobs pay pretty decent by local COL standards, but the true BigLaw from most TTTs is going to be very difficult, even from the top of the class.

[rayiner]

This depends on what your other options are, how strong your resume is, and what your goals are.

Well I would like big law or at least higher mid law

Assuming your resume is weak (you don't have significant relevant experience, or, for example, PhD looking into patent law), you are setting yourself up for failure. Not having a clear idea of what you want to do, coupled with your utter cluelessness and a T3 law degree, means you don't have much chance of success.

FYI I attend a T3.

Well honestly man I would not say I am utterly clueless wow, tough crowd here. I have been a engineer at a top communication company for the past 3 years, I don't have a phd but I do do have a online MBA degree. I would like to be a attorney but I was concerned with the risk that's why I asked for some input. Engineering is great but I'm not sure I want to do it the rest of my life and I would like to have the options open to me.

A degree in EE and solid WE will give you a decent chance at a good-paying patent attorney job if you can get into a T1. A PhD is not necessary nor will it help for EE patent prosecution. However, even those qualifications aren't going to get you biglaw out of a T3/T4, or even a T2 ITE.

[RP1983]

As always, vanwinkle is spot on. I'm so sick of people making the, "Its possible to make biglaw from a TTT!" argument. Yeah, its also possible for me to get drafted into the NBA, win the lottery, and get hit by a car today. That doesn't mean I should participate in the draft workouts, spend all my money on lotto tickets, or stay in the house all day for fear of getting killed by a car.

People shouldn't act on what is possible, but should act based on what is realistic and attainable, especially when there are hundreds of thousands of dollars on the table and 3 years of your life being sacrificed. Going to a TTT with big law aspirations is ridiculous.[/quote]

That last statement of yours is ridiculous. Just because the chances are less, the aspiration of doing so is ridiculous?

Look at your handle name for instance. I think just about anyone would agree that it is way more difficult to become a starting QB in the NFL than it is to practice for a big law firm. Look at Tony Romo. It was ridiculous for him to aprire to be a starting QB in the NFL after going undrafted. I think most people would have told him at the time to give up and had he done so, he wouldnt have made nearly the ammount of money, nor dated the likes of Jessica Simpson or Carrie Underwood.

As far as your first paragraph, that is a horrible analogy.

I understand when you say that it is a better idea to go to a T1 school if you want to practice big law. But to say there is Zero chance if you go to a T4 is just flat out wrong.

[RP1983]

Certainly if you want to practice big law, it helps to go to a T1 school. Big time. But I believe it can be done from a T4 or T3 school, providing that you are at the very top of your class.

Two problems with this:

1) 100% of people at a T4 are going to want to be at the top 1% of the class so they're employable when they graduate. Only 1% can do it. That means that at any given time 99% of the people attending are going to be disappointed.

2) ITE even the #1-ranked person at T4s are going to have a very rough time and face a lot of disappointment in many markets.

What you believe is possible doesn't matter. What matters is what is actually possible, and ITE it's barely possible even from lower T1 and from T2 schools to get BigLaw employment right now. People at TTTs and T4 are largely SOL right now regarding BigLaw, and that's reality whether you believe it or not.
quote]


If you don't believe it is possible, go research the top 250 law firms in the US and look at their lawyer profiles.

[270910]

If you don't believe it is possible, go research the top 250 law firms in the US and look at their lawyer profiles.

1) Of course it's possible. Nobody every argued that it wasn't.

2) Are you really so new to this game you think the NLJ 250 are the 'top 250' law firms? No more posting until you figure out what factors NLJ uses when coming up with its rankings.

3) Pick a big firm outside of a major market and it's often ~50% T14 grads, ~50% local grads. That's a massive generalization, but the point is that those local schools graduate HUNDREDS of students every year who rarely make it out of the locality. There will absolutely be room for the top of the class at the big, well paying firms. but only for the top of the class.

[A'nold]

A'nold. I will be attending Widener this fall, and I am actually choosing it over Suffolk due to the location. I am wondering why you would say that my legal career is over if I choose this. I was under the impression that Widener is a better T4 school as compared to the others.

As far as this thread is concerned, I think there is a lot of truth and BS involved in it. Certainly if you want to practice big law, it helps to go to a T1 school. Big time. But I believe it can be done from a T4 or T3 school, providing that you are at the very top of your class. Obviously, the chances are much less but it definitely can be done. My take on it is that a successful person is going to be successful whether they are at T4 or T1. An unsuccessful person will be unsuccessful whether they go to a T4 or T1. It comes from within. That being said, if I get the chance to transfer to a Top 14 school, I would obviously take that opporunity. I also regret wasting literally all of my time in Undergrad drinking since it clearly hurt my chances of getting into a better school. Going to a T1 school means you have a much better chance of being successful, but at a T4 school you still have a chance.

To OP, if a T4 or T3 school is your only choice, and you really want to be a lawyer, I would tell you to go for it and do whatever it takes to succeed.

Wait......why was this addressed to me? I don't get it.

[romothesavior]

[q

That last statement of yours is ridiculous. Just because the chances are less, the aspiration of doing so is ridiculous?

Look at your handle name for instance. I think just about anyone would agree that it is way more difficult to become a starting QB in the NFL than it is to practice for a big law firm. Look at Tony Romo. It was ridiculous for him to aprire to be a starting QB in the NFL after going undrafted. I think most people would have told him at the time to give up and had he done so, he wouldnt have made nearly the ammount of money, nor dated the likes of Jessica Simpson or Carrie Underwood.

As far as your first paragraph, that is a horrible analogy.

I understand when you say that it is a better idea to go to a T1 school if you want to practice big law. But to say there is Zero chance if you go to a T4 is just flat out wrong.

Wow, you want to talk about horrible analogies? Lulz at your Romo one. The fact is that Romo got a free college education for playing football and made tons of money in his pursuit of becoming a star quarterback. Pursuing his dream of becoming an NFL player didn't carry much risk. Your anology is completely and utterly foolish. Its not like Jerry Jones said, "Hey Tony... give us 200k, as well as sacrifice three years of working and earning money, and we'll give you a 5-10% possibility of becoming a millionaire quarterback." That's what a TTT LS does.

[romothesavior]

As always, vanwinkle is spot on. I'm so sick of people making the, "Its possible to make biglaw from a TTT!" argument. Yeah, its also possible for me to get drafted into the NBA, win the lottery, and get hit by a car today. That doesn't mean I should participate in the draft workouts, spend all my money on lotto tickets, or stay in the house all day for fear of getting killed by a car.

People shouldn't act on what is possible, but should act based on what is realistic and attainable, especially when there are hundreds of thousands of dollars on the table and 3 years of your life being sacrificed. Going to a TTT with big law aspirations is ridiculous.[/quote]

That last statement of yours is ridiculous. Just because the chances are less, the aspiration of doing so is ridiculous?

Look at your handle name for instance. I think just about anyone would agree that it is way more difficult to become a starting QB in the NFL than it is to practice for a big law firm. Look at Tony Romo. It was ridiculous for him to aprire to be a starting QB in the NFL after going undrafted. I think most people would have told him at the time to give up and had he done so, he wouldnt have made nearly the ammount of money, nor dated the likes of Jessica Simpson or Carrie Underwood.

As far as your first paragraph, that is a horrible analogy.

I understand when you say that it is a better idea to go to a T1 school if you want to practice big law. But to say there is Zero chance if you go to a T4 is just flat out wrong.

[/quote]

Also, RC fail. Who the hell said there was a 0% chance at big law from a TTT? Nobody. We just think a 5-10% possibility is not worth the risk of speding 150-200k for the degree.

At the T20 I'll be attending, only about 30% of students have a realistic shot at biglaw, and that scares the shit outta me, and I'm going there for half the cost. Going to a TTT at sticker would be like doubling the cost and cutting the odds of big law in third.

[RP1983]

[q

That last statement of yours is ridiculous. Just because the chances are less, the aspiration of doing so is ridiculous?

Look at your handle name for instance. I think just about anyone would agree that it is way more difficult to become a starting QB in the NFL than it is to practice for a big law firm. Look at Tony Romo. It was ridiculous for him to aprire to be a starting QB in the NFL after going undrafted. I think most people would have told him at the time to give up and had he done so, he wouldnt have made nearly the ammount of money, nor dated the likes of Jessica Simpson or Carrie Underwood.

As far as your first paragraph, that is a horrible analogy.

I understand when you say that it is a better idea to go to a T1 school if you want to practice big law. But to say there is Zero chance if you go to a T4 is just flat out wrong.

Wow, you want to talk about horrible analogies? Lulz at your Romo one. The fact is that Romo got a free college education for playing football and made tons of money in his pursuit of becoming a star quarterback. Pursuing his dream of becoming an NFL player didn't carry much risk. Your anology is completely and utterly foolish. Its not like Jerry Jones said, "Hey Tony... give us 200k, as well as sacrifice three years of working and earning money, and we'll give you a 5-10% possibility of becoming a millionaire quarterback." That's what a TTT LS does.

Lulz?!?!?! Real cute.

Pursuing the dream of becoming an NFL player doesn't carry much risk??? Let me ask you this. Do you ANYTHING about the NFL or even just sports in general? Pursuing the dream of becoming an NFL player is WAY more risky than going to any type of law school. I won't even get into injuries or anything of that sort. But of the people that set out to be an NFL player, how many do you think actually end up succeeding. 5-10%? Probably way less right? What about those people that fail? Some do alright, but lots of these guys end up selling insurance for a living or working at best buy.

If you go to a T4, or T3 school, the top percent may make big law, but even if you are top 15%, you are going to be making atleast 80K + coming out. If you don't think that is worth the 100-125K investment, then congrats, you disagree with me.

[hoopsguy6]

If you go to a T4, or T3 school, the top percent may make big law, but even if you are top 15%, you are going to be making atleast 80K + coming out. If you don't think that is worth the 100-125K investment, then congrats, you disagree with me.

Even assuming that "top 15% of a t4 are guaranteed 80k jobs", what about the 85% of the class that aren't at the top? Was it smart for them to invest 100-125k only to be unemployed or barely making 40k?

[A'nold]

[q

That last statement of yours is ridiculous. Just because the chances are less, the aspiration of doing so is ridiculous?

Look at your handle name for instance. I think just about anyone would agree that it is way more difficult to become a starting QB in the NFL than it is to practice for a big law firm. Look at Tony Romo. It was ridiculous for him to aprire to be a starting QB in the NFL after going undrafted. I think most people would have told him at the time to give up and had he done so, he wouldnt have made nearly the ammount of money, nor dated the likes of Jessica Simpson or Carrie Underwood.

As far as your first paragraph, that is a horrible analogy.

I understand when you say that it is a better idea to go to a T1 school if you want to practice big law. But to say there is Zero chance if you go to a T4 is just flat out wrong.

Wow, you want to talk about horrible analogies? Lulz at your Romo one. The fact is that Romo got a free college education for playing football and made tons of money in his pursuit of becoming a star quarterback. Pursuing his dream of becoming an NFL player didn't carry much risk. Your anology is completely and utterly foolish. Its not like Jerry Jones said, "Hey Tony... give us 200k, as well as sacrifice three years of working and earning money, and we'll give you a 5-10% possibility of becoming a millionaire quarterback." That's what a TTT LS does.

Lulz?!?!?! Real cute.

Pursuing the dream of becoming an NFL player doesn't carry much risk??? Let me ask you this. Do you ANYTHING about the NFL or even just sports in general? Pursuing the dream of becoming an NFL player is WAY more risky than going to any type of law school. I won't even get into injuries or anything of that sort. But of the people that set out to be an NFL player, how many do you think actually end up succeeding. 5-10%? Probably way less right? What about those people that fail? Some do alright, but lots of these guys end up selling insurance for a living or working at best buy.

If you go to a T4, or T3 school, the top percent may make big law, but even if you are top 15%, you are going to be making atleast 80K + coming out. If you don't think that is worth the 100-125K investment, then congrats, you disagree with me.

DAMN GUY! THANK YOU SOOOOOOOOO MUCH for saving my life! Here I was thinking about paying 4x the amount I am for tuition and transferring when there is this cush AT LEAST 80k job waiting for me right after graduation! Phew! I mean, since I am at the very top, that must mean a floor salary of like, what, at least 140k is guaranteed! Yipppeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[Danteshek]

There is nothing wrong with taking risks in life, especially if your other options aren't very attractive. I went to law school at age 28 essentially because my career in finance hit a brick wall because of the crisis. My TTT is working out just fine. I'm going to Washington this summer to work at the S.E.C., and I'm working for a fed judge in Los Angeles in the fall. I know I'm going to be successful, regardless of whether some biglaw firm decides to throw me a bone early in my career as an attorney.

[SwollenMonkey]

There is nothing wrong with taking risks in life, especially if your other options aren't very attractive. I went to law school at age 28 essentially because my career in finance hit a brick wall because of the crisis. My TTT is working out just fine. I'm going to Washington this summer to work at the S.E.C., and I'm working for a fed judge in Los Angeles in the fall. I know I'm going to be successful, regardless of whether some biglaw firm decides to throw me a bone early in my career as an attorney.

This is actually a beautiful post. Good job.

I know an attorney that graduated from UCLA and did not get Big Law. She's working at a small firm with one president and three associates, including herself. She handles big cases that pay dollars, but is far from Big Law.

Danteshek looks to be in a better position than her and he will presumable graduate from a TTT. Success comes from within while making good use of the resources at hand.

[270910]

There is nothing wrong with taking risks in life, especially if your other options aren't very attractive. I went to law school at age 28 essentially because my career in finance hit a brick wall because of the crisis. My TTT is working out just fine. I'm going to Washington this summer to work at the S.E.C., and I'm working for a fed judge in Los Angeles in the fall. I know I'm going to be successful, regardless of whether some biglaw firm decides to throw me a bone early in my career as an attorney.

This is actually a beautiful post. Good job.

I know an attorney that graduated from UCLA and did not get Big Law. She's working at a small firm with one president and three associates, including herself. She handles big cases that pay dollars, but is far from Big Law.

Danteshek looks to be in a better position than her and he will presumable graduate from a TTT. Success comes from within while making good use of the resources at hand.

You have no idea how law school works.

1L summer work for a federal agency and working for a judge during the semester are both fine accomplishments, but they aren't lucrative employment nor do they guarantee it. Danteshel is doing fine... for a 1L. Better things may come. But I know piles of unemployed or painfully underemployed law students who did similar work as 1Ls. There is a huge, gaping chasm between the credentials and hustle required to get temporary summer work and that which is required to get gainful employment.

Now, I wish the best of luck to everyone, and don't for a second mean to imply they will fail. My point is that the anecdotes don't add up to much.

[SwollenMonkey]

There is nothing wrong with taking risks in life, especially if your other options aren't very attractive. I went to law school at age 28 essentially because my career in finance hit a brick wall because of the crisis. My TTT is working out just fine. I'm going to Washington this summer to work at the S.E.C., and I'm working for a fed judge in Los Angeles in the fall. I know I'm going to be successful, regardless of whether some biglaw firm decides to throw me a bone early in my career as an attorney.

This is actually a beautiful post. Good job.

I know an attorney that graduated from UCLA and did not get Big Law. She's working at a small firm with one president and three associates, including herself. She handles big cases that pay dollars, but is far from Big Law.

Danteshek looks to be in a better position than her and he will presumable graduate from a TTT. Success comes from within while making good use of the resources at hand.

You have no idea how law school works.

1L summer work for a federal agency and working for a judge during the semester are both fine accomplishments, but they aren't lucrative employment nor do they guarantee it. Danteshel is doing fine... for a 1L. Better things may come. But I know piles of unemployed or painfully underemployed law students who did similar work as 1Ls. There is a huge, gaping chasm between the credentials and hustle required to get temporary summer work and that which is required to get gainful employment.

Now, I wish the best of luck to everyone, and don't for a second mean to imply they will fail. My point is that the anecdotes don't add up to much.

I have an idea as to how law school works. Thank you. Might not be a complete idea, but the concept is there.

I even know an attorney that graduated from Southwestern before it was accredited, and he turned into a well-connected LA lawyer with deep pockets. Not all is lost attending a TTT, but it is preferable to be at a T1 or T2.

[vanwinkle]

If you don't believe it is possible, go research the top 250 law firms in the US and look at their lawyer profiles.

You do realize that listings of who currently works at law firms is going to include a lot of people who were hired pre-ITE when firms were doing a lot more hiring, right?

I hope you also realize that just because lawyers have made it at BigLaw firms from a certain school doesn't mean it's likely or common for people to make it to BigLaw from that school. You're trying to use exceptions to establish a rule. It doesn't work that way.

My point is not that it's absolutely impossible coming from those schools, my point is that it's hard, and ITE it's so much harder that it makes the cost/benefit ratio of going to these law schools so low that going doesn't make sense for a lot of people anymore, even if it would have a few years ago.

[vanwinkle]

I even know an attorney that graduated from Southwestern before it was accredited, and he turned into a well-connected LA lawyer with deep pockets. Not all is lost attending a TTT, but it is preferable to be at a T1 or T2.

I don't doubt that this is true, but I wonder how many utter failures there are for every success story like that out of Southwestern. 50? 100? 200?

It's not a question of what's possible, it's a question of how possible it is. Yes, you can be that one in a million who makes it, but treating law school like a $200,000 lottery ticket is the dumbest thing you could possibly do.

[A'nold]

Top 15% from a TTT does not guarantee you an 80k a year job, nor does top 1% for that matter. Was I a little to light on the sarcastic post above?

[Dr. Strangelove]

If you can go to a third/fourth tier law school for free.. then it might be worth it.
If you think you'd rather be a lawyer than an engineer.. I'd say go for it but financially, you might be better off sticking with the engineering route.

[Danteshek]

No matter where you go, there will be competition from people from better schools, with better grades, or with better experience or contacts. There are no guarantees in life. I find it rather disturbing how many people on TLS think they've already made it based on what school they got into.