Of ABA accredited schools, where is the "regional school" cut-off Forum

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Re: Of ABA accredited schools, where is the "regional school" cut-off

Post by abl » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:48 pm

HxAxDxExS wrote:
abl wrote:First, I don't understand why you'd transfer from UNLV. You're clearly doing well there, you presumably like it, and you're not talking about transferring to a better school.

Second, it's not the case that someone in the top 25% at UC Davis (tied for 31 in USNews) will be equally as competitive for an Atlanta job as someone in the top 25% at UGA (tied for 31 in USNews). This will continue to not be true even if you have strong Atlanta ties. Local firms almost always prefer local schools. Maybe even more importantly, local firms will almost always interview at local firms. Having a firm interviewing at your school is a huge advantage. Sure, you might be able to get a job via resume drop or an email, but your chances will be far greater if the hiring pipeline is already there. Ties matter a lot--especially if you're trying to break into a more insular market, or are trying to break into a region into which your law school typically does not feed--but ties are not the only factor in hiring.

Third, there are real differences between regional markets. You've mentioned the Bay Area. Because so many folks want to live in the Bay Area, and because Stanford and Berkeley are there, going to UCDavis is going to provide less of a leg up for getting a job in SF than going to UGA will be for Atlanta. But don't take this to mean you should go to the regional law school that serves the smallest and most insular market. There's also obviously some balancing here: there tend to be far more legal jobs in big cities than in small cities, so going to a rural school that dominates its local market isn't necessarily an advantage over going somewhere like Fordham that doesn't. I'm sure that there are some regional schools that hit more of a sweet spot here than others -- e.g., they dominate their local market, which has a fairly robust legal landscape. My instinct is that cities with one or more elite law schools (like SF/Chicago/NY) or cities that are particularly desirable to grads from elsewhere (like SF/Chicago/NY/DC/LA) are going to be harder to break into from a regional school even if it's in that region. If you can't get into Stanford or Berkeley, and are ambivalent about where you'd like to practice, I'd probably preference a top regional school in a non-SF region in which you have ties over somewhere like UC-Davis (assuming roughly similar (~10-15 spots) USNews ranks). That said, if I were you, I wouldn't treat a legal career in SF as equivalent to a legal career in Atlanta--but that's purely personal preference.
So basically if I get into T14 school(s), go to them or consider going somewhere else over a T14 school if I prefer the market more for that specific college, respectively? Also I have the same preferences as you do, and Thank you.
Yes. Generally, a T14 outside of region [x] will give you a better chance of being hired in region [x] than whatever the top regional school in region [x] -- especially if you have ties to that region. There are potentially a few exceptions to this (Texas for Texas as opposed to Georgetown for Texas, for example), but you can suss them out when you're actually in the position to decide between schools.

Now, of course, the above advice doesn't take into account debt, which obviously should also be an important part of your decision. How much more debt you should go into in order to go to a higher ranked school is something that has probably been discussed on this board more than anything else -- but once again, that's a question you should be considering after you have specific scholarship numbers.

With a 4.0 GPA, there's no practical ceiling for you for where you could get admitted. If you score above a 175, for example, you're probably going to get into Harvard, Yale, or Stanford, and will almost certainly get into one of CCN. And, there's a fairly noticeable difference even within the T14 in terms of employment opportunities--especially when it comes to desirable jobs in competitive markets like the Bay Area. So my big advice to you right now is to study your butt off for the LSAT. The difference between you getting a 155, 165, and 175 might only be a few months of studying, but the likely impact on your career will be substantial.

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HxAxDxExS

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Re: Of ABA accredited schools, where is the "regional school" cut-off

Post by HxAxDxExS » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:01 pm

abl wrote:
HxAxDxExS wrote:
abl wrote:First, I don't understand why you'd transfer from UNLV. You're clearly doing well there, you presumably like it, and you're not talking about transferring to a better school.

Second, it's not the case that someone in the top 25% at UC Davis (tied for 31 in USNews) will be equally as competitive for an Atlanta job as someone in the top 25% at UGA (tied for 31 in USNews). This will continue to not be true even if you have strong Atlanta ties. Local firms almost always prefer local schools. Maybe even more importantly, local firms will almost always interview at local firms. Having a firm interviewing at your school is a huge advantage. Sure, you might be able to get a job via resume drop or an email, but your chances will be far greater if the hiring pipeline is already there. Ties matter a lot--especially if you're trying to break into a more insular market, or are trying to break into a region into which your law school typically does not feed--but ties are not the only factor in hiring.

Third, there are real differences between regional markets. You've mentioned the Bay Area. Because so many folks want to live in the Bay Area, and because Stanford and Berkeley are there, going to UCDavis is going to provide less of a leg up for getting a job in SF than going to UGA will be for Atlanta. But don't take this to mean you should go to the regional law school that serves the smallest and most insular market. There's also obviously some balancing here: there tend to be far more legal jobs in big cities than in small cities, so going to a rural school that dominates its local market isn't necessarily an advantage over going somewhere like Fordham that doesn't. I'm sure that there are some regional schools that hit more of a sweet spot here than others -- e.g., they dominate their local market, which has a fairly robust legal landscape. My instinct is that cities with one or more elite law schools (like SF/Chicago/NY) or cities that are particularly desirable to grads from elsewhere (like SF/Chicago/NY/DC/LA) are going to be harder to break into from a regional school even if it's in that region. If you can't get into Stanford or Berkeley, and are ambivalent about where you'd like to practice, I'd probably preference a top regional school in a non-SF region in which you have ties over somewhere like UC-Davis (assuming roughly similar (~10-15 spots) USNews ranks). That said, if I were you, I wouldn't treat a legal career in SF as equivalent to a legal career in Atlanta--but that's purely personal preference.
So basically if I get into T14 school(s), go to them or consider going somewhere else over a T14 school if I prefer the market more for that specific college, respectively? Also I have the same preferences as you do, and Thank you.
Yes. Generally, a T14 outside of region [x] will give you a better chance of being hired in region [x] than whatever the top regional school in region [x] -- especially if you have ties to that region. There are potentially a few exceptions to this (Texas for Texas as opposed to Georgetown for Texas, for example), but you can suss them out when you're actually in the position to decide between schools.

Now, of course, the above advice doesn't take into account debt, which obviously should also be an important part of your decision. How much more debt you should go into in order to go to a higher ranked school is something that has probably been discussed on this board more than anything else -- but once again, that's a question you should be considering after you have specific scholarship numbers.

With a 4.0 GPA, there's no practical ceiling for you for where you could get admitted. If you score above a 175, for example, you're probably going to get into Harvard, Yale, or Stanford, and will almost certainly get into one of CCN. And, there's a fairly noticeable difference even within the T14 in terms of employment opportunities--especially when it comes to desirable jobs in competitive markets like the Bay Area. So my big advice to you right now is to study your butt off for the LSAT. The difference between you getting a 155, 165, and 175 might only be a few months of studying, but the likely impact on your career will be substantial.
Definitely, I am thankful to be only in my freshman year as well. So the 4.0 can stay at 4.0, and I have three years to study for the LSAT. The debt won't bother me, I am an asset :P I see it as such a blessing you can even be handed the dream of law school to you. If there was no debt to be accumulated (No loans) I would find a way to come up with the sticker price full! No matter what, I would do anything it takes. I would save, I would get help from family, I would do it all, and I can still do these things when I am getting loans :D

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Re: Of ABA accredited schools, where is the "regional school" cut-off

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:42 pm

Can I ask how you know you want to go to law school so badly?

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Re: Of ABA accredited schools, where is the "regional school" cut-off

Post by Johann » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:49 pm

HxAxDxExS wrote:Additionally, if you were in my position. Would you just finish your bachelor's where I am right now in Las Vegas, at UNLV. Or forego the ten's of thousands of dollars it will cost my first year transferring back to the Bay Area(Non-resident tuition for first year) to attend a school out there like Saint Mary's. Would my best bet be to stay at UNLV?
Yeah man no one gives a shit about undergrad location for ties. People know you want to get out and explore. If you grew up in the Bay Area you won't ever have to explain ties if you grew up there and attended a local law school.

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Re: Of ABA accredited schools, where is the "regional school" cut-off

Post by Johann » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:54 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Can I ask how you know you want to go to law school so badly?
Yeah I didn't realize you were a freshman in college. Law is nothing like how you imagine it. If you are a people person, I'd go into HR. IF you are a business person, I'd go into supply/demand management. I'd talk to practicing lawyers about their careers, what they do, and overall if they'd redo what they did and recommend it to someone. Most people on this board would redo their college education to avoid law school I'm sure.

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Re: Of ABA accredited schools, where is the "regional school" cut-off

Post by abl » Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:12 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Can I ask how you know you want to go to law school so badly?
Yeah I didn't realize you were a freshman in college. Law is nothing like how you imagine it. If you are a people person, I'd go into HR. IF you are a business person, I'd go into supply/demand management. I'd talk to practicing lawyers about their careers, what they do, and overall if they'd redo what they did and recommend it to someone. Most people on this board would redo their college education to avoid law school I'm sure.
I'm totally with Johann re law not being what you imagine it to be. But I can't imagine a worse nightmare than working in HR (and supply/demand management seems similarly miserable). Everyone's going to have their own priorities and interests when it comes to jobs. Law turns out to be pretty perfect for me. It isn't for most people -- even for many, if not most, practicing lawyers. One of the biggest favors you can do yourself in undergrad is to explore what it is you're interested in. Maybe law is the best career for you, but I'm betting it's not. Now's the time to figure that out.

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Re: Of ABA accredited schools, where is the "regional school" cut-off

Post by TheSpanishMain » Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:49 pm

Guys, he's contemplating a law school themed tattoo. There's no saving this one.

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Re: Of ABA accredited schools, where is the "regional school" cut-off

Post by HxAxDxExS » Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:25 pm

There's definitely no saving me. There's nothing I haven't heard; although I would consider your opinion and value it. And i'm not just a freshman that wants to go to law school (I am 22, and would've graduated already and been 1L/2L right now if I started when I graduated H.S. at 17 but I didn't know then I wanted to go to law school) the only reason I am undergrad is to go to law school. No law school = no undergrad. I mean yeah, I would've probably eventually got my degree for self-enlightenment. Although probably wouldn't because I would rather focus all my time on music production & construction companies, two things I dont plan on mixing law with btw. Although I have experience/connection in both
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Re: Of ABA accredited schools, where is the "regional school" cut-off

Post by HxAxDxExS » Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:29 pm

Also, I wanted to go into law because I really like the suits barbra wears on law & order. Scandal is a dope show too, maybe I can open up a crisis-management firm in D.C. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: All bullshit aside, I don't know the specific reason why I want to go into law. I'm also not going to say dumb shit like "I'm a good debater" or "People always said ill make a good lawyer" or "I'm a career candidate lawyer". I have did all of the things you guys have mentioned. I will not take out 250k for law school, when if I were to take that loan out for something else, I would make a profit. Therefore, law school will make a profit, although if it doesn't i'm not going to cry. (As in it's not why i'm going). Also, I can't realistically imagine me being stuck in a career in law I won't enjoy. It may not be how I picture it, but best believe, I will enjoy it.

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Re: Of ABA accredited schools, where is the "regional school" cut-off

Post by HxAxDxExS » Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:39 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Can I ask how you know you want to go to law school so badly?
Yeah I didn't realize you were a freshman in college. Law is nothing like how you imagine it. If you are a people person, I'd go into HR. IF you are a business person, I'd go into supply/demand management. I'd talk to practicing lawyers about their careers, what they do, and overall if they'd redo what they did and recommend it to someone. Most people on this board would redo their college education to avoid law school I'm sure.
I am a mixture of people and business.

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Re: Of ABA accredited schools, where is the "regional school" cut-off

Post by HxAxDxExS » Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:42 pm

abl wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Can I ask how you know you want to go to law school so badly?
Yeah I didn't realize you were a freshman in college. Law is nothing like how you imagine it. If you are a people person, I'd go into HR. IF you are a business person, I'd go into supply/demand management. I'd talk to practicing lawyers about their careers, what they do, and overall if they'd redo what they did and recommend it to someone. Most people on this board would redo their college education to avoid law school I'm sure.
I'm totally with Johann re law not being what you imagine it to be. But I can't imagine a worse nightmare than working in HR (and supply/demand management seems similarly miserable). Everyone's going to have their own priorities and interests when it comes to jobs. Law turns out to be pretty perfect for me. It isn't for most people -- even for many, if not most, practicing lawyers. One of the biggest favors you can do yourself in undergrad is to explore what it is you're interested in. Maybe law is the best career for you, but I'm betting it's not. Now's the time to figure that out.
True, although I figured out a long time ago what I will be. It's either a lawyer, an entrepreneur or both. And exactly, everyone's going to have their own priorities and interests when it comes to jobs. That is exactly why I want to go to law school (On top of to be a lawyer), because I have my own priorities and i'm tired of hearing all of this job mix with college (Don't get me wrong the two should correlate but not at the level some people make them out to be)

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Re: Of ABA accredited schools, where is the "regional school" cut-off

Post by HxAxDxExS » Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:54 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:
HxAxDxExS wrote:Additionally, if you were in my position. Would you just finish your bachelor's where I am right now in Las Vegas, at UNLV. Or forego the ten's of thousands of dollars it will cost my first year transferring back to the Bay Area(Non-resident tuition for first year) to attend a school out there like Saint Mary's. Would my best bet be to stay at UNLV?
Yeah man no one gives a shit about undergrad location for ties. People know you want to get out and explore. If you grew up in the Bay Area you won't ever have to explain ties if you grew up there and attended a local law school.
Right. From how it was explained to me, if you plan on attending grad school, only where you got your last diploma at matters. I am going to stay at UNLV, because schools in the Bay Area i'm looking at (and even the ones i'm not looking at) cost damn near as much as it would for some law schools.

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Re: Of ABA accredited schools, where is the "regional school" cut-off

Post by HxAxDxExS » Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:03 am

And see what this guy had to say about these two MBA applicants, that's what I meant when I asked about transferring out of UNLV. http://poetsandquants.com/2013/06/07/ca ... a-program/

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Re: Of ABA accredited schools, where is the "regional school" cut-off

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:10 am

Law schools don't really care - their admissions process is much less holistic than that of top business schools. There is some argument that people from the very tip top undergrads (like HYPS) get a slight boost, but I think even that is highly debated. And a 4.00/172 from ASU has a much better shot at getting into Harvard Law School than a 3.3/168 from Harvard undergrad. If you really really want/need to create ties to an area, transferring to complete undergrad there would probably help, but is not worth any extra cost.

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Re: Of ABA accredited schools, where is the "regional school" cut-off

Post by HxAxDxExS » Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:04 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Law schools don't really care - their admissions process is much less holistic than that of top business schools. There is some argument that people from the very tip top undergrads (like HYPS) get a slight boost, but I think even that is highly debated. And a 4.00/172 from ASU has a much better shot at getting into Harvard Law School than a 3.3/168 from Harvard undergrad. If you really really want/need to create ties to an area, transferring to complete undergrad there would probably help, but is not worth any extra cost.
Right, well at this point, my only choices, unless i'm talking about just coming up with a new idea a nd go anywhere in AZ, UT, etc and those will still be expensive, is to stay at UNLV (Also, from the other universities I looked at, UNLV is the only school that gives a **** about providing students with clear information on their website). I don't see the point to go anywhere else, especially since I get instate tuition (For undergrad). I'm pretty sure there would be some scholarships offered if I maintain a 4.0. What would you consider on if I were a solid LS candidate and decided to go to WSB Law (Unlv) and dual with an MBA there opposed to T14 or lower. Considering everything applicable (debt, jobs, etc)

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Re: Of ABA accredited schools, where is the "regional school" cut-off

Post by IAmLawSchool » Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:20 am

Thank you. I am the original OP. The only reason UNLV looks appealing is because the joint program and at a bargain. But I definitely don't want to stay and practice here, even my construction plans are in the Bay Area. Las Vegas is the mecca of lost lawyers. If I am going to a T1 school, I will most likely focus on just a JD. Then a LLM from elsewhere down the line (5, 10 years) Perhaps I will do an MBA then, or after all together.

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Re: Of ABA accredited schools, where is the "regional school" cut-off

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:27 am

Yeah, if you don't want to practice in Nevada, don't go to UNLV for law school.

I will add that as someone who went to a regional school in the western half of the country, it is possible to go practice elsewhere; I practice elsewhere (because that's where the job I wanted was), and I have a number of classmates who do (most of my classmates stayed in state, but most of them were from in-state to begin with, and have no desire to go anywhere, for which I can't blame them because it's an awesome place). It's not at all impossible to move around from regional schools, but it is definitely putting obstacles in your path that don't need to be there, in that you will not be able to rely on a lot of the standard school-supported job help, and you will have to do a lot more to make your own way.

And your chances will vary a lot depending on what else you bring to the table. I know someone doing biglaw in Boston who is originally from the east coast and I'm pretty sure did everything he could to keep those connections alive during law school (frankly I have no idea why he went to our school to begin with but I think he fell prey to "a school ranked #X must be better than a school ranked #X+1!" thinking). A number of my classmates are in California, a few in DC, and then some others in other random places.

But there has to be a good reason. The people who had the easiest time were people who went back to places they were from, especially places that have few/no law schools, so going out of state to law school was NBD. DC is sort of neutral ground for lawyers, since so many federal jobs are there (though the firms are super grades-conscious so in private practice it's not easy to break into). And many of the California people struggled to find something. I don't know them well enough to know whether they consider that struggle worth the cost, or how happy they are with their jobs.

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Re: Of ABA accredited schools, where is the "regional school" cut-off

Post by IAmLawSchool » Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:39 pm

I know it wouldn't make a difference in the admissions, but I would like some opinions on this. If I really want to go to the Bay Area and start small out there qualify as a resident after one year (Because I have lived there and will be running a construction company when I go back.) Then transfer to somewhere like Berkeley or not such a top school. Would that be super pointless? I mean if I really have to go to CA, I really wanted to experience college out there but I can also care less; considering that I want to go to law school somewhere on the east coast. there's alot to consider when I really like my current academic situation where I am right now.
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