Is it BIGLAW or bust? Forum

[lawbanshee]

Bigger city prosecutor's offices are almost always hiring. The turn-over in the field is probably worse than BigLaw. Many people will do the prosecution gig for a handful of years to gain trial experience and then transition into more lucrative defense work. So competition is fierce, but if you apply to enough offices, you will most likely find a job. The office I'm interning for now routinely hires Northern Illinois and Southern Illinois law grads and they recently hired a Cooley grad. I only know of one prosecutor at our office that came from a T-14 school and he's in the area because of his wife. He could have found a much better job elsewhere.

Um, no. DA offices are laying off lawyers, not hiring them:

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/0 ... en_co.html

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/ ... ings-rise/

Look for this to get even worse as the economy continues to crumble. These state gov't positons can always be filled with volunteers:

http://blogs.findlaw.com/strategist/200 ... teers.html

HTH

[rayiner]

V5 or bust baby

Unjustifiable CravaTTTh trolling. WLRK is T only CR.

[caputlupinum]

If you don't get big law do you really think salaries stay bimodal forever? Or will you just struggle the first 5-10 years of your career? I mean 99% of the attorneys I know where I am from (mid sized tourist based town) never worked in big law but most of them are well off and some of them are just outright wealthy as hell.

[Ruxin1]

be ALPHA

[rayiner]

If you don't get big law do you really think salaries stay bimodal forever? Or will you just struggle the first 5-10 years of your career? I mean 99% of the attorneys I know where I am from (mid sized tourist based town) never worked in big law but most of them are well off and some of them are just outright wealthy as hell.

1) You're probably not in a position to meet all the attorneys that worked in solo practice for a few years then gave up and left law. Obviously you only see the successes.

2) Those attorneys started in a much different legal world. There has been huge consolidation in the legal industry even since 1990, with big firms buying up smaller business law firms. And the gap between big firms and everyone else has grown tremendously.

[caputlupinum]

If you don't get big law do you really think salaries stay bimodal forever? Or will you just struggle the first 5-10 years of your career? I mean 99% of the attorneys I know where I am from (mid sized tourist based town) never worked in big law but most of them are well off and some of them are just outright wealthy as hell.

1) You're probably not in a position to meet all the attorneys that worked in solo practice for a few years then gave up and left law. Obviously you only see the successes.

2) Those attorneys started in a much different legal world. There has been huge consolidation in the legal industry even since 1990, with big firms buying up smaller business law firms. And the gap between big firms and everyone else has grown tremendously.

so you think all the med mal, family law, product liability, criminal defense, estate, workers comp etc. attorneys when they retire will be replaced by big law associates?

[lawbanshee]

Tort reform has killed off a lot of the whiplash and other rinky-dink cases that used to be very profiable for small firms and solos.

Insurance companies have now largely in-housed defense work, and pay abysmal salaries (45 K a year or so) to churn & burn these crap files.

Other areas of law like LLC/business formation, wills/trusts, etc have been replaced by Legalzoom and online filing.

Consumer bankruptcy and residential real estate solos and small firms are under intense price pressure since these areas are saturated with lawyers and clients are very price-sensitivve.

[rayiner]

If you don't get big law do you really think salaries stay bimodal forever? Or will you just struggle the first 5-10 years of your career? I mean 99% of the attorneys I know where I am from (mid sized tourist based town) never worked in big law but most of them are well off and some of them are just outright wealthy as hell.

1) You're probably not in a position to meet all the attorneys that worked in solo practice for a few years then gave up and left law. Obviously you only see the successes.

2) Those attorneys started in a much different legal world. There has been huge consolidation in the legal industry even since 1990, with big firms buying up smaller business law firms. And the gap between big firms and everyone else has grown tremendously.

so you think all the med mal, family law, product liability, criminal defense, estate, workers comp etc. attorneys when they retire will be replaced by big law associates?

No, but I do think there are plenty of 45 y/o's in the pipeline at those firms that won't retire for another 20-25 years such that your chance if getting into the business is slim right now. Those folks didn't have to go the big law route to get where they did, but they also graduated law school at a time when the field was far less saturated.

[Indifferent]

Sadly, I don't know much about employment opportunities after graduation. How much does Midlaw pay compared to Biglaw?

"Mid law" is a nebulous beast. People use it to refer to everything from NLJ250 firms in secondary markets to medium-size NYC firms paying $80k. The former is really regional big law (eg. $115k is market in Milwaukee). The latter is exceedingly difficult to get.

Mid law hiring is much more predominant in regional markets - since TLS tends to focus on major market hiring at top schools, most TLSers will assert that mid law recruiting/hiring of recent graduates is a myth. However, mid law firms that hire recent graduates do exist, but they are not really given attention by TLSers because a) most are in regional markets, b) they tend to take, at most, 1-3 summers and c) many of them focus their recruiting efforts on prominent regional schools.

[romothesavior]

Sadly, I don't know much about employment opportunities after graduation. How much does Midlaw pay compared to Biglaw?

"Mid law" is a nebulous beast. People use it to refer to everything from NLJ250 firms in secondary markets to medium-size NYC firms paying $80k. The former is really regional big law (eg. $115k is market in Milwaukee). The latter is exceedingly difficult to get.

Mid law hiring is much more predominant in regional markets - since TLS tends to focus on major market hiring at top schools, most TLSers will assert that mid law recruiting/hiring of recent graduates is a myth. However, mid law firms that hire recent graduates do exist, but they are not really given attention by TLSers because a) most are in regional markets, b) they tend to take, at most, 1-3 summers and c) many of them focus their recruiting efforts on prominent regional schools.

What is your point? Nothing you said really contradicts what Rayiner said. I think Rayiner hit it on the head with his overview of "midlaw."

"Midlaw" (or secondary market biglaw, if you will) is great. I was gunning for it when I came in, and I was fortunate enough to get it. I think it offers the best mixture of work, money, and life balance, and I think people should go for it if they get the opportunity. It certainly does exist, and for some of us, it is all we want (or even have a shot at). But the reason people say it is a "myth" is because there are so, so few opportunities in it. There are single firms in Chicago that have more summer associate positions than entire cities have. Kirkland and Sidley in Chicago, for example, have more summer associate sitions than the entire city of St. Louis has NLJ 250 SA positions.

[Indifferent]

What is your point? Nothing you said really contradicts what Rayiner said. I think Rayiner hit it on the head with his overview of "midlaw."

The latter is exceedingly difficult to get.

I was merely pointing out that mid law is not as "exceedingly" difficult to get as TLS makes it out to be (though by no means is it easy to get, like any job ITE) and that mid law constitutes a substantial portion of the opportunities available in many secondary markets.

This thread is "is it BIGLAW or bust?" and while rayiner's definition was sufficient, I thought I'd point out some of the reasons many people on TLS have that attitude in the first place.

ETA: although I do agree with rayiner that in most major markets, mid law is exceedingly difficult to get.

[romothesavior]

What is your point? Nothing you said really contradicts what Rayiner said. I think Rayiner hit it on the head with his overview of "midlaw."

The latter is exceedingly difficult to get.

I was merely pointing out that mid law is not as "exceedingly" difficult to get as TLS makes it out to be (though by no means is it easy to get, like any job ITE) and that mid law constitutes a substantial portion of the opportunities available in many secondary markets.

This thread is "is it BIGLAW or bust?" and while rayiner's definition was sufficient, I thought I'd point out some of the reasons many people on TLS have that attitude in the first place.

ETA: although I do agree with rayiner that in most major markets, mid law is exceedingly difficult to get.

I thunk part of the problem is the varying definitions of midlaw. A lot of TLSers call anything outside the Vault 100 midlaw, or at least non biglaw. They would call just about every secondary market firm midlaw. On the other hand, I have trouble calling 300-400 attorney firms midlaw, so I think the bigger secondary firms are more "small biglaw",and I see midlaw as like the 70-150 range.

[Indifferent]

I thunk part of the problem is the varying definitions of midlaw. A lot of TLSers call anything outside the Vault 100 midlaw, or at least non biglaw. They would call just about every secondary market firm midlaw. On the other hand, I have trouble calling 300-400 attorney firms midlaw, so I think the bigger secondary firms are more "small biglaw",and I see midlaw as like the 70-150 range.

I typically think of the NLJ 250 as being the cut-off point where biglaw turns into midlaw. According to Wikipedia (this may be outdated) the smallest firm in the NLJ 250 has 174 attorneys.

[BruceWayne]

What is your point? Nothing you said really contradicts what Rayiner said. I think Rayiner hit it on the head with his overview of "midlaw."

"Midlaw" (or secondary market biglaw, if you will) is great. I was gunning for it when I came in, and I was fortunate enough to get it. I think it offers the best mixture of work, money, and life balance, and I think people should go for it if they get the opportunity. It certainly does exist, and for some of us, it is all we want (or even have a shot at). But the reason people say it is a "myth" is because there are so, so few opportunities in it. There are single firms in Chicago that have more summer associate positions than entire cities have. Kirkland and Sidley in Chicago, for example, have more summer associate sitions than the entire city of St. Louis has NLJ 250 SA positions.

I don't know what his point was, but one thing that he hit on, and one thing that I and many of my fellow 2L's discovered this year, is that a lot of Rayiner's (and many of his TLS high post contemporaries like Vamedic and vanwinkle etc.) blanket statements about hiring is just plain wrong. And I don't mean that in a "let's start a 20 page internet forum battle way" but I do want people to realize that their opinions/experiences are not the be all end all for hiring. For one they are dead wrong about NYC being the easiest place for everyone to land a biglaw job. Now that may be correct for what seems to be the largest demographic on this website (people from NYC/DC/California with grades close to the median at a top 14--whether that's above or below the median) but for others that's just not the case.

A lot of the advice that they, and many hardcore TLSer's give, is focused on someone with that demographic. But that's not everyone. What I and many of my peers found at UVA, is that if you are from a secondary market, that's basically your best bet for a job. Especially if you are from the South. Further, regardless of where you're from, but particularly if you're from a secondary market, if you have grades significantly below median (like a 3.1 or lower at UVA) NYC is REALLY not your friend. There are just too many law schools (many of them elite and with a stronger foothold/rep in NYC: see Columbia, NYU, Penn, Cornell ) sending grads to that market for you to be in a good place applying there with that profile. In addition, contrary to popular belief, NYC firms aren't as keen on people with secondary market written all over their resume as TLS likes you to think. And as big as their class sizes are (as TLS LOVES to stress) NYC firms are also some of the most inflexible when it comes to hard cutoffs. It's almost like they have computers that sift through resumes/transcripts and automatically toss those without certain hard credentials. 3.0 and below GPAs are a no go at NYC firms; I don't care how big the class size. 3.0 GPA from UVA, ties to Virginia, and interested in Richmond is another story. The same can be said for people from other Southern states who attend UVA. I'm sure that schools like /NU do the same in places like Milwaukee, Minneapolis, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Indianapolis, Detroit etc. for grads from those areas. My peers from non NYC/DC markets with poor grades who applied to their home markets got jobs. Those who bid heavily on NYC with those grades didn't. I almost messed myself up by bidding heavily on NYC.

[romothesavior]

Thank you for taking a month and a half to think up that response.

[Bronte]

I don't know what his point was, but one thing that he hit on, and one thing that I and many of my fellow 2L's discovered this year, is that a lot of Rayiner's (and many of his TLS high post contemporaries like Vamedic and vanwinkle etc.) blanket statements about hiring is just plain wrong. And I don't mean that in a "let's start a 20 page internet forum battle way" but I do want people to realize that their opinions/experiences are not the be all end all for hiring. For one they are dead wrong about NYC being the easiest place for everyone to land a biglaw job. Now that may be correct for what seems to be the largest demographic on this website (people from NYC/DC/California with grades close to the median at a top 14--whether that's above or below the median) but for others that's just not the case.

A lot of the advice that they, and many hardcore TLSer's give, is focused on someone with that demographic. But that's not everyone. What I and many of my peers found at UVA, is that if you are from a secondary market, that's basically your best bet for a job. Particularly if you are from the South. Further, regardless of where you're from, but especially if you're from a secondary market if you have grades significantly below median (like a 3.1 or lower at UVA) NYC is REALLY not your friend. There are just too many law schools (many of them elite) sending grads to that market for you to be in a good place applying there with that profile. In addition, contrary to popular belief, NYC firms aren't as keen on people with secondary market written all over their resume as TLS likes you to think. Further, as big as their class sizes are (as TLS LOVES to stress) NYC firms are also some of the most inflexible when it comes to hard cutoffs. It's almost like they have computers that sift through resumes/transcripts and automatically toss those without certain hard credentials. 3.0 and below GPAs are a no go at NYC firms; I don't care how big the class size. 3.0 GPA from UVA, from Virginia, and interested in Richmond is another story. The same can be said for people from other Southern states who attend UVA. I'm sure that schools like Michigan do the same in places like Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Detroit etc. for grads from those areas. My peers from non NYC/DC markets with poor grades who applied to their home markets got jobs. Those who bid heavily on NYC with those grads didn't. I almost messed myself up by bidding heavily on NYC.

I don't really see how this contradicts the wisdom of the TLS 3L class. When rayiner and others say New York is the easiest market, they mean it's the easiest of the major markets, which effectively boil down to New York, Chicago, and DC. It also assumes that you don't have any particularly strong ties to any of them. To this extent, the low GPA T10er you hypothesis would be right to follow the advice. If he's going for major market big law, he's better off going for New York.

What you're saying is basically that some people shouldn't go for major market big law because they'll be shut out. That's no doubt true. What they should do instead is hard to say, especially if they're from a major market. In many instances, they will simply be shut out of law firm work altogether. But you may well be right that low GPA students with ties to secondary markets should go the route of applying to that market.

[IAFG]

I think that BruceWayne is right that TLS hasn't developed strong CW for low-grades students (aside from, "you're fucked and should kill yourself.")

Secondary and tertiary markets are absolutely more welcoming to below median T14ers, judging from the callback median data OCS gave us. As others already mentioned, they only hire a few SAs a year, and there will be just a few firms that hire SAs at all, but for people who are below median, they're probably the best shot they're going to have at a market-paying gig.

[BruceWayne]

.

[BruceWayne]

I don't really see how this contradicts the wisdom of the TLS 3L class. When rayiner and others say New York is the easiest market, they mean it's the easiest of the major markets, which effectively boil down to New York, Chicago, and DC. It also assumes that you don't have any particularly strong ties to any of them. To this extent, the low GPA T10er you hypothesis would be right to follow the advice. If he's going for major market big law, he's better off going for New York.

What you're saying is basically that some people shouldn't go for major market big law because they'll be shut out. That's no doubt true. What they should do instead is hard to say, especially if they're from a major market. In many instances, they will simply be shut out of law firm work altogether. But you may well be right that low GPA students with ties to secondary markets should go the route of applying to that market.

One huge assumption that you're making, and one that I've noticed that a lot of people on here make, is that most if not all students at top schools are not from secondary markets. I really don't understand this mindset. I mean I'm aware that NYC/DC/and LA/SF have a lot of people but, as far as I know, there are still more people from other areas of the U.S than there are from the aforementioned cities. For those people who also have poor grades, the TLS generic apply mainly to NYC is very bad advice. I did that, against my better judgment, and it almost cost me. I know many others who did the same and almost or did get screwed. This is where the TLS advice is contradictory to what I'm saying. Most on here will tell you that NYC is your best bet regardless of your background. What I and many others who did recruiting this year discovered, is that this isn't true. NYC firms have VERY hard cutoffs that they will not ignore unless you have some insane connections. Firms in secondary markets are more likely to flex on that sort of thing. I don't give a damn how big Schulte, Cadwalader, or Dechert's class sizes are, they aren't dropping to a 3.0 GPA.

I think that BruceWayne is right that TLS hasn't developed strong CW for low-grades students (aside from, "you're fucked and should kill yourself.")

Secondary and tertiary markets are absolutely more welcoming to below median T14ers, judging from the callback median data OCS gave us. As others already mentioned, they only hire a few SAs a year, and there will be just a few firms that hire SAs at all, but for people who are below median, they're probably the best shot they're going to have at a market-paying gig.

That's all I ever hear them say. The other good thing about applying to secondary markets with a top 14 degree, assuming you're from that market, is that you aren't competing with as many people who have your caliber of degree. You go to NYC and it's like "You have a UVA/Penn/Duke/NU/GULC degree; am I supposed to be impressed?". In many secondary markets it's like "Wow UVA/Penn/Duke/NU etc. that's an amazing school".

[IAFG]

Well, be the change you want to see and all that.

[Bronte]

One huge assumption that you're making, and one that I've noticed that a lot of people on here make, is that most if not all students at top schools are not from secondary markets. I really don't understand this mindset. I mean I'm aware that NYC/DC/and LA/SF have a lot of people but, as far as I know, there are still more people from other areas of the U.S than there are from the aforementioned cities. For those people who also have poor grades, the TLS generic apply mainly to NYC is very bad advice. I did that, against my better judgment, and it almost cost me. I know many others who did the same and almost or did get screwed. This is where the TLS advice is contradictory to what I'm saying. Most on here will tell you that NYC is your best bet regardless of your background. What I and many others who did recruiting this year discovered, is that this isn't true. NYC firms have VERY hard cutoffs that they will not ignore unless you have some insane connections. Firms in secondary markets are more likely to flex on that sort of thing. I don't give a damn how big Schulte, Cadwalader, or Dechert's class sizes are, they aren't dropping to a 3.0 GPA..

To be clear, I was trying to avoid making that a tacit assumption and instead express it as a clear caveat. I definitely do not categorically assume people at T10s are from major markets: I'm at a T10 and was born and raised in a secondary market. My point is just that, if you're shooting for major market big law, NYC is your best bet. Like IAFG, if you have low grades and you're just trying to get a job, TLS doesn't have much wisdom and I don't know the answer. Honestly, I think a lot of people will still get shut out of their home markets. I think people in that position should transition to non-prestigious PI and try to take advantage of LRAP. But I don't really know the answer.

[IAFG]

One huge assumption that you're making, and one that I've noticed that a lot of people on here make, is that most if not all students at top schools are not from secondary markets. I really don't understand this mindset. I mean I'm aware that NYC/DC/and LA/SF have a lot of people but, as far as I know, there are still more people from other areas of the U.S than there are from the aforementioned cities. For those people who also have poor grades, the TLS generic apply mainly to NYC is very bad advice. I did that, against my better judgment, and it almost cost me. I know many others who did the same and almost or did get screwed. This is where the TLS advice is contradictory to what I'm saying. Most on here will tell you that NYC is your best bet regardless of your background. What I and many others who did recruiting this year discovered, is that this isn't true. NYC firms have VERY hard cutoffs that they will not ignore unless you have some insane connections. Firms in secondary markets are more likely to flex on that sort of thing. I don't give a damn how big Schulte, Cadwalader, or Dechert's class sizes are, they aren't dropping to a 3.0 GPA..

To be clear, I was trying to avoid making that a tacit assumption and instead express it as a clear caveat. I definitely do not categorically assume people at T10s are from major markets: I'm at a T10 and was born and raised in a secondary market. My point is just that, if you're shooting for major market big law, NYC is your best bet. Like IAFG, if you have low grades and you're just trying to get a job, TLS doesn't have much wisdom and I don't know the answer. Honestly, I think a lot of people will still get shut out of their home markets. I think people in that position should transition to non-prestigious PI and try to take advantage of LRAP. But I don't really know the answer.

I think that ITE TLS lost some of its institutional knowledge about secondary market hiring. For a couple cycles, they just stopped hiring, so telling people to "just do your home market, bro" was pretty hopeless advice. That got better our cycle, and I know quite a few people who are summering in secondaries. Next year, I hope we'll know better than to advise to try to pick up "unselective NYC" but in changing times, these things are hard to predict.

[romothesavior]

Why was this bumped?