Why not make law school admissions requirements harder? Forum

[JamMasterJ]

That's just the the thing. ABA and almost all law schools are supposed to be non profit.

I wonder at what point in the rankings (roughly) do law schools become profitable.

Florida Coastal

[09042014]

That's just the the thing. ABA and almost all law schools are supposed to be non profit.

I wonder at what point in the rankings (roughly) do law schools become profitable.

It's probably an inverse relationship. Top schools are just huge money pits. Their goal is to raise a bunch of money and conspicuously consume it.

It's the lower tier schools that used to raise revenue for their school.

Both are pretty disgusting in their own way.

The southern state schools seem to be the only ones doing it right by having decent in state rates.

[dailygrind]

They should really just crack down on transparency. If people want to attend law school cognizant of all the risks, let 'em.

[crossarmant]

I can agree that there should be about half the number of law schools and that law school should be more like medical school, where if you can get in, but aren't in the top half of the class, you should still be able to find work.

But I also feel this is the same thing with higher education as whole. Look at how many for-profit colleges and cut-rate schools are offering online degrees in Criminal Justice for stupid money with little student benefit. It cheapens the value of a Bachelors degree as a whole. Something like 25% of Americans aged 24-35 have a Bachelors, but we have a diminished manufacturing sector and a lack of skilled tradesmen and artisans. Our society has shifted towards this whole aversion to labor so we assume "Let's get more education to prevent my hands from getting dirty and so I can make more money". Yet when everyone has that mindset, it makes the jobs acquired by that education more competitive. What we need is to discredit a lot of cut-rate colleges, invest more in skills and vocational schools and work on bringing a living wage to those who don't have a college degree.

And while it sucks, I understand why student loans aren't dischargeable. It'd make a lot more sense for a fresh faced college grad with $60k in loans from a private school to simply file for bankruptcy, be absolved of his debt, and try to clear up his credit than it would be to be buried under $700 a month payments to be paid back off work secured by their English B.A. It'd collapse the entire system and a lot of people wouldn't pay back any loans. Though school costs across the board is absurd, especially when you look at other nations around the globe. Like with France, top notch schools are ~$500 a semester. Yet here, even for state schools it's $10k+. I honestly feel that more focus on vocational skills and harder admissions to all higher ed would benefit the nation, but also ad the benefit of reduced tuition for vocational training and lower school tuitions & better financial aid.

Just my $0.02

[CanadianWolf]

Making student loans dischargeable may not result in significantly higher interest rates. Student loans were affordable when subject to discharge (but could be reaffirmed without prejudicing status of other discharged debts). Credit checks, co-signers, adverse consequences with respect to employability if one defaults on government subsidized loans, state bar discipline are among considerations to make lending student loans more responsible. It is misguided, in my opinion, to think that the market would bear a high interest rate on student loans since those foolish enough to borrow at abusive rates may fail C&F (think Ohio Supreme Court ruling).

In my opinion, the ability to discharge student loans in bankruptcy will correct the excessive tuitions now charged & reduce the number of law schools eyeing the lucrative law school business.

[CanadianWolf]

With respect to profitability: All, or almost all, law schools are profitable--even the non-profit ones. Those registered as "non-profit" just do different things with their funds---especially those affiliated with universities (think Division 1 US football teams that fund entire university athletic programs).

History has shown that student loan interest rates were not unreasonable & were quite affordable when such loans were dischargeable--so why would it be different now ? Especially under the current more debtor hostile bankruptcy code ?

[CanadianWolf]

One concern not yet raised in this thread is that if student loans become dischargeable & require credit checks or co-signers, then the neediest students will be shut-out of law school. This can be addressed by special government loans for those in adverse circumstances. Not certain, but I believe that those who default on government subsidized student loans may be ineligible for some government jobs.

If student loans remain non-dischargeable, then we are likely to repeat the easy-money housing bubble & bust of the recent years. Some results are obvious now--too many lawyers, too many law schools & too few legal jobs . Not to mention out-sourcing of legal work to India & China due to customers demanding reductions in legal costs.

[ajr]

I do agree that education in the US is overpriced (when compared to a lot of other countries, though things are changing in the developing world); and this is a big cause for problems later on. Salaries have to be artificially high to help people pay off their enormous debts.
I think medical schools are worse in this respect - while employment prospects may be better for doctors, the emphasis when they practice is so geared to making money to repay debts and avoiding lawsuits (especially the latter), that there is no emphasis on actually curing the patient. Even those that enter the profession with more honorable intentions are forced to do whatever it takes to pay the debt off....

[CanadianWolf]

Medical schools, however, are expensive; law schools are profitable. There is ample justification for the high tuition cost of a medical school degree, far less for the cost of a law school diploma.

As an aside: Canadian law schools charge far less tuition (about half or less) than do US law schools.

P.S. Average annual tuition of 15 Canadian law schools is $11,258 per year.

[mattviphky]

selecting TTT/tttt to be shut down is actually the better option, but it would have to be used carefully. i mean, a number of state schools have the misfortune of being labeled tttt, when they are the only option, such as und in north dakota. law students are just maldistributed, such as having 6 schools in chicago for example.

[crossarmant]

As an aside: Canadian law schools charge far less tuition (about half or less) than do US law schools.

As is most all of their schooling. Also, take into consideration that it is much harder to get into Canadian law schools than for any schmuck with a bachelors and LSAT score to get into Cooley. I think they might have a smarter system.

[09042014]

selecting TTT/tttt to be shut down is actually the better option, but it would have to be used carefully. i mean, a number of state schools have the misfortune of being labeled tttt, when they are the only option, such as und in north dakota. law students are just maldistributed, such as having 6 schools in chicago for example.

The Chicago legal market is a fuck load bigger than ND. Especially when you consider that virtually nobody HQ's corporations there.

Also, do you really need a law school in your state? Can't shitty UMN students just fill that need.

[Grizz]

They should really just crack down on transparency. If people want to attend law school cognizant of all the risks, let 'em.

This.

[random5483]

Convert some law schools into medical schools. We need more doctors and fewer lawyers, so this should be relatively easy. If a school has both, expand the medical school and get rid of the law school!


Not being serious here, but sadly, the above suggestion is better than some of the comments made here.

[crossarmant]

Convert some law schools into medical schools. We need more doctors and fewer lawyers, so this should be relatively easy. If a school has both, expand the medical school and get rid of the law school!


Not being serious here, but sadly, the above suggestion is better than some of the comments made here.

People on TLS have this tendency to look at doctors as some super smart beasts and a great career path. I mean sure, it's harder to get in and make it through med school than other grad programs, but lest we forget that medical malpractice and doctor errors are something like the 3rd leading cause of death in the U.S. The medical profession is so shoddy and ghetto rigged half the time and doctors don't really pay the focus they should, selective med school screening is still letting crackpots in who get their M.D.s and do terrible jobs, just as you get awful law school grads who look like bumbling idiots. I mean, shit, Ron Paul is a doctor and a crackpot.

[ajr]

Convert some law schools into medical schools. We need more doctors and fewer lawyers, so this should be relatively easy. If a school has both, expand the medical school and get rid of the law school!


Not being serious here, but sadly, the above suggestion is better than some of the comments made here.

People on TLS have this tendency to look at doctors as some super smart beasts and a great career path. I mean sure, it's harder to get in and make it through med school than other grad programs, but lest we forget that medical malpractice and doctor errors are something like the 3rd leading cause of death in the U.S. The medical profession is so shoddy and ghetto rigged half the time and doctors don't really pay the focus they should, selective med school screening is still letting crackpots in who get their M.D.s and do terrible jobs, just as you get awful law school grads who look like bumbling idiots. I mean, shit, Ron Paul is a doctor and a crackpot.

People on TLS tend to look at everyone except lawyers as some kind of geniuses who have everything made for them - doctors, engineers, MBAs, you name it. It's more than a feeling of the greener grass, it's ridiculous.

[adonai]

I would think a shadowing/residency program much like what undergrad pre-med students need to do to get into med school would be a good way to weed out a lot of students. Something as simple as just getting in there and seeing what you do and what lawyers do is enough to either reaffirm your commitment to law or just want to get out ASAP. I've seen students come in all confident into a judge's chambers or legal aid clinic saying they are planning to go to law school and then not return after the first day after seeing how unglamorous the work really is. Some people may just not want to put up with an extra requirement and not consider law to begin with or give it up altogether and pursue something "easier." I'm sure there are students who want to be doctors (whether capable or not) but gave up the thought just because of the required courses/recommended shadowing program in pre-med.

Local government/non-profits could work with the local colleges and universities and receive free help. Local firms could also participate. Students seeking to shadow a particular firm or law office not involved in the program would be forced to network and job hunt (and perhaps learn a lot about the legal industry while researching). I'm sure lots of undergrad schools have this kind of program available, but I would think making it an official requirement would do something at least.

[luthersloan]

If we simply got rid of federal student loans it would do a great deal to resolve the lawyer over-supply problem. Students would either need to spend their own cash, or get a private lender to sign off on their 200K loans to attend Florida Costal (they aren’t suing people for making fun of them yet, right?). Thus, the bad schools close and the schools that are still a good investment would continue.

[prezidentv8]

alot of TTTT's

Use of "alot" is TTTTT

[crossarmant]

I would think a shadowing/residency program much like what undergrad pre-med students need to do to get into med school would be a good way to weed out a lot of students. Something as simple as just getting in there and seeing what you do and what lawyers do is enough to either reaffirm your commitment to law or just want to get out ASAP. I've seen students come in all confident into a judge's chambers or legal aid clinic saying they are planning to go to law school and then not return after the first day after seeing how unglamorous the work really is. Some people may just not want to put up with an extra requirement and not consider law to begin with or give it up altogether and pursue something "easier." I'm sure there are students who want to be doctors (whether capable or not) but gave up the thought just because of the required courses/recommended shadowing program in pre-med.

Local government/non-profits could work with the local colleges and universities and receive free help. Local firms could also participate. Students seeking to shadow a particular firm or law office not involved in the program would be forced to network and job hunt (and perhaps learn a lot about the legal industry while researching). I'm sure lots of undergrad schools have this kind of program available, but I would think making it an official requirement would do something at least.

I completely agree with this mindset. In other fields and professions, to get a graduate degree in it, you need to have some semblance of experience with the field. To get a M.S. in Chemistry, you need a science degree before, same for Engineering or Medicine. Hell, you need a B.A. in History to get an M.A. Yet, with law school, any aimless schmuck with a liberal arts degree and no direction will sign up for law school thinking that "it could be neat". There should be some sort of shadowing or requirement of people for them to attend.

[Bartlebee06]

If we simply got rid of federal student loans it would do a great deal to resolve the lawyer over-supply problem. Students would either need to spend their own cash, or get a private lender to sign off on their 200K loans to attend Florida Costal (they aren’t suing people for making fun of them yet, right?). Thus, the bad schools close and the schools that are still a good investment would continue.

Or at least require a 20% down payment. Much like the mortgage industry allowing 100% financing for homes that end up under water the minute the housing market falls, financing 100% of college is wrong as well. Kids should graduate high school and get a job for a few years while they save money and decide what they want to do with the rest of their life.

[luthersloan]

Or at least require a 20% down payment. Much like the mortgage industry allowing 100% financing for homes that end up under water the minute the housing market falls, financing 100% of college is wrong as well. Kids should graduate high school and get a job for a few years while they save money and decide what they want to do with the rest of their life.[/quote]

I do not think that would be necessary. I agree that in general working before college is good, but I do not think it is wise public policy to require everyone to do so. If you have an IQ of 150 and graduate high school when you are twelve it would seem to be an awful waste of talent to make tha person work for a few years in lieu of going to college. I am sure some creditors might offer lower rates to people who made down payments, but that really is just one factor among many that impacts a person's credit risk.

[Corwin]

If we simply got rid of federal student loans it would do a great deal to resolve the lawyer over-supply problem. Students would either need to spend their own cash, or get a private lender to sign off on their 200K loans to attend Florida Costal (they aren’t suing people for making fun of them yet, right?). Thus, the bad schools close and the schools that are still a good investment would continue.

Or at least require a 20% down payment. Much like the mortgage industry allowing 100% financing for homes that end up under water the minute the housing market falls, financing 100% of college is wrong as well. Kids should graduate high school and get a job for a few years while they save money and decide what they want to do with the rest of their life.

A country that restricts education to those who have 40K in cash on hand is not a country I want to live in.

[firemed]

some stuff

You really picked that name for your screen name? Really?

[firemed]

I completely agree with this mindset. In other fields and professions, to get a graduate degree in it, you need to have some semblance of experience with the field. To get a M.S. in Chemistry, you need a science degree before, same for Engineering or Medicine. Hell, you need a B.A. in History to get an M.A. Yet, with law school, any aimless schmuck with a liberal arts degree and no direction will sign up for law school thinking that "it could be neat". There should be some sort of shadowing or requirement of people for them to attend.

To be totally fair in most countries (Australia, England, Poland, France, Germany, etc.etc.etc....) you don't need a science background to go to medical school. Heck in most of those you don't even need a college degree.