Road to become a lawyer Forum

[r6_philly]

Med school requires a hard science background.

Computer Science is an extension of math. Computer Engineering no.

You should research the top 10 universities and every major they offer. You can't understand all the majors just by name only, they are sometimes quite misleading.

[Patriot1208]

you ever seen the movie "the road" with Viggo Mortensen? It's like that

[kalvano]

you ever seen the movie "the road" with Viggo Mortensen? It's like that

Not true. That movie provided more hope and a better outlook.

[tazmolover]

Any major but pre-law.

[MTU]

Just to summarize for you:

Law school admission depends on two things:
1) Your GPA
2) Your LSAT score.

You need to blow these out of the water because they are approximately 95% of the package. While other little things like which school, what major, work experience, etc. may give a slight "bump" here or there, they won't be determinative. If you don't have the GPA and LSAT the school is looking for, you're going to have a really tough time getting in there. If you do have the numbers they want, you will have a much easier time.

** One exception to this rule is if you are an underrepresented minority (URM). Then you can get a substantial bump.

Continue reading if you're interested in big law:
If you want to go "big law" then you need to be shooting for the Top 14 (T14) law schools as ranked by US News. You can find the rankings on this website (http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html). The numbers at the low end of the T14 are around a 3.6 gpa and 168 LSAT, so work your ass off if this is your goal. If you want to go Harvard/Yale/Stanford, last I checked their numbers were around 3.85 gpa and 173ish LSAT (sorry if these are slightly off). The big take away here is you need numbers as close to perfect as possible (for big law chances), so don't screw up in undergrad (but make sure you still have fun and develop social skills).

[AreJay711]

I wouldn't worry about it and take whatever classes you like the most when you take them. I used to hate math, and got straight C's in math in high school but after changing my major twice I ended up a econ and math double major with a 3.93 GPA. It is really different in college so there are things that you liked/disliked in high school that will change in college.

[JamesGilly]

Just to summarize for you:

Law school admission depends on two things:
1) Your GPA
2) Your LSAT score.

You need to blow these out of the water because they are approximately 95% of the package. While other little things like which school, what major, work experience, etc. may give a slight "bump" here or there, they won't be determinative. If you don't have the GPA and LSAT the school is looking for, you're going to have a really tough time getting in there. If you do have the numbers they want, you will have a much easier time.

** One exception to this rule is if you are an underrepresented minority (URM). Then you can get a substantial bump.

Continue reading if you're interested in big law:
If you want to go "big law" then you need to be shooting for the Top 14 (T14) law schools as ranked by US News. You can find the rankings on this website (http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html). The numbers at the low end of the T14 are around a 3.6 gpa and 168 LSAT, so work your ass off if this is your goal. If you want to go Harvard/Yale/Stanford, last I checked their numbers were around 3.85 gpa and 173ish LSAT (sorry if these are slightly off). The big take away here is you need numbers as close to perfect as possible (for big law chances), so don't screw up in undergrad (but make sure you still have fun and develop social skills).

Another question

I know T14 is Top 14, but what is t1/t2/t3/t4

and does "big law" mean big law firms?

[ResolutePear]

Med school requires a hard science background.

Computer Science is an extension of math. Computer Engineering no.

You should research the top 10 universities and every major they offer. You can't understand all the majors just by name only, they are sometimes quite misleading.

Med school does *NOT* require a hard science background. They require certain courses before being admitted: pre-med courses.

You can do a pre-med while doing computer science *easily* since most of the pre-reqs for comp. sci. upper division consists of hard science and math. Hell, if you have enough time.. I've seen people do an Economics BA with pre-med and still be admitted to med school.

[ResolutePear]

Just to summarize for you:

Law school admission depends on two things:
1) Your GPA
2) Your LSAT score.

You need to blow these out of the water because they are approximately 95% of the package. While other little things like which school, what major, work experience, etc. may give a slight "bump" here or there, they won't be determinative. If you don't have the GPA and LSAT the school is looking for, you're going to have a really tough time getting in there. If you do have the numbers they want, you will have a much easier time.

** One exception to this rule is if you are an underrepresented minority (URM). Then you can get a substantial bump.

Continue reading if you're interested in big law:
If you want to go "big law" then you need to be shooting for the Top 14 (T14) law schools as ranked by US News. You can find the rankings on this website (http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html). The numbers at the low end of the T14 are around a 3.6 gpa and 168 LSAT, so work your ass off if this is your goal. If you want to go Harvard/Yale/Stanford, last I checked their numbers were around 3.85 gpa and 173ish LSAT (sorry if these are slightly off). The big take away here is you need numbers as close to perfect as possible (for big law chances), so don't screw up in undergrad (but make sure you still have fun and develop social skills).

Another question

I know T14 is Top 14, but what is t1/t2/t3/t4

and does "big law" mean big law firms?

Look at the school rankings. They're divided into tiers and only t1 is ranked IIRC.

[MTU]

Just to summarize for you:

Law school admission depends on two things:
1) Your GPA
2) Your LSAT score.

You need to blow these out of the water because they are approximately 95% of the package. While other little things like which school, what major, work experience, etc. may give a slight "bump" here or there, they won't be determinative. If you don't have the GPA and LSAT the school is looking for, you're going to have a really tough time getting in there. If you do have the numbers they want, you will have a much easier time.

** One exception to this rule is if you are an underrepresented minority (URM). Then you can get a substantial bump.

Continue reading if you're interested in big law:
If you want to go "big law" then you need to be shooting for the Top 14 (T14) law schools as ranked by US News. You can find the rankings on this website (http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html). The numbers at the low end of the T14 are around a 3.6 gpa and 168 LSAT, so work your ass off if this is your goal. If you want to go Harvard/Yale/Stanford, last I checked their numbers were around 3.85 gpa and 173ish LSAT (sorry if these are slightly off). The big take away here is you need numbers as close to perfect as possible (for big law chances), so don't screw up in undergrad (but make sure you still have fun and develop social skills).

Another question

I know T14 is Top 14, but what is t1/t2/t3/t4

and does "big law" mean big law firms?

Look at the school rankings. They're divided into tiers and only t1 is ranked IIRC.

"big law" commonly refers to the Vault 100 rankings of law firms (google it), though definitions vary. It's associated with huge billable hours, not much life, but a nice paycheck (145-160k plus bonus in a good economy). Then there's small law which pays in the 60-80k range. There's VERY FEW jobs between these two price points for starting attorneys that want to go to a private firm. So taking on a large amount of debt is very risky, especially the lower your school is ranked. You don't want to be paying 150k of debt off on a 60k a year salary.

Besides private practice you can also do government work, public interest (PI), or some other random job (sorry if I missed something). Neither of these pay great starting off, though government can be lucrative down the line, especially considering the low hours (or so I've been told).

Note: all of these statements are generalities, and there will always be the exception to the rule somewhere, but it's best not to rely on these exceptions when making your decision over what to do.

Some other info about the legal profession. More than 50% of attorneys hate their job, and the career is riddled with drug and alcohol problems, and you work A LOT. Think 2200 billable in a big firm, which, assuming a 75% efficiency rate is 2900-3000 hours a year, or 60 hours a week assuming you take two weeks of vacation (big assumption). While this doesn't sound bad, you won't be doing flat rate hours like this, some months you'll be upwards of 100 hours, others much lower. It's very up-and-down, especially in litigation. Corporate is arguably a little flatter (or so I've heard), but it still has its emergencies. It's also difficult to plan vacations and things because something can come up any minute that HAS to be done.

This is not to convince you not to become a lawyer, however. It's just to inform you of what you will be getting yourself into so you can make the smart choice. Being an attorney takes a special mind sight, and I am really excited to get started. I believe that those that make the conscious decision to go to law school and do this work, knowing full well what they are doing, are the one's happiest in the profession. Those that fell into law school because they had a major they couldn't do anything with and law school sounded like a lottery ticket are the ones that hate it. (I have nothing to support this conclusion except my gut feelings.)

Whatever you decide, good luck! And feel free to post questions here anytime. The more you know the better. Also check out the "sticky" posts at the tops of the different forums. They contain posts of tons of useful information.

[romothesavior]

Just to summarize for you:

Law school admission depends on two things:
1) Your GPA
2) Your LSAT score.

You need to blow these out of the water because they are approximately 95% of the package. While other little things like which school, what major, work experience, etc. may give a slight "bump" here or there, they won't be determinative. If you don't have the GPA and LSAT the school is looking for, you're going to have a really tough time getting in there. If you do have the numbers they want, you will have a much easier time.

** One exception to this rule is if you are an underrepresented minority (URM). Then you can get a substantial bump.

Continue reading if you're interested in big law:
If you want to go "big law" then you need to be shooting for the Top 14 (T14) law schools as ranked by US News. You can find the rankings on this website (http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html). The numbers at the low end of the T14 are around a 3.6 gpa and 168 LSAT, so work your ass off if this is your goal. If you want to go Harvard/Yale/Stanford, last I checked their numbers were around 3.85 gpa and 173ish LSAT (sorry if these are slightly off). The big take away here is you need numbers as close to perfect as possible (for big law chances), so don't screw up in undergrad (but make sure you still have fun and develop social skills).

Another question

I know T14 is Top 14, but what is t1/t2/t3/t4

and does "big law" mean big law firms?

Look at the school rankings. They're divided into tiers and only t1 is ranked IIRC.

"big law" commonly refers to the Vault 100 rankings of law firms (google it), though definitions vary. It's associated with huge billable hours, not much life, but a nice paycheck (145-160k plus bonus in a good economy). Then there's small law which pays in the 60-80k range. There's VERY FEW jobs between these two price points for starting attorneys that want to go to a private firm. So taking on a large amount of debt is very risky, especially the lower your school is ranked. You don't want to be paying 150k of debt off on a 60k a year salary.

Eh... close, but not quite. I just wanna point out that most people mean the NLJ 250 when they say big law. Also, small law is 40-50k, not 60-80k. Very few jobs start out at 60-80k.

[JamesGilly]

Just to summarize for you:

Law school admission depends on two things:
1) Your GPA
2) Your LSAT score.

You need to blow these out of the water because they are approximately 95% of the package. While other little things like which school, what major, work experience, etc. may give a slight "bump" here or there, they won't be determinative. If you don't have the GPA and LSAT the school is looking for, you're going to have a really tough time getting in there. If you do have the numbers they want, you will have a much easier time.

** One exception to this rule is if you are an underrepresented minority (URM). Then you can get a substantial bump.

Continue reading if you're interested in big law:
If you want to go "big law" then you need to be shooting for the Top 14 (T14) law schools as ranked by US News. You can find the rankings on this website (http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html). The numbers at the low end of the T14 are around a 3.6 gpa and 168 LSAT, so work your ass off if this is your goal. If you want to go Harvard/Yale/Stanford, last I checked their numbers were around 3.85 gpa and 173ish LSAT (sorry if these are slightly off). The big take away here is you need numbers as close to perfect as possible (for big law chances), so don't screw up in undergrad (but make sure you still have fun and develop social skills).

Another question

I know T14 is Top 14, but what is t1/t2/t3/t4

and does "big law" mean big law firms?

Look at the school rankings. They're divided into tiers and only t1 is ranked IIRC.

"big law" commonly refers to the Vault 100 rankings of law firms (google it), though definitions vary. It's associated with huge billable hours, not much life, but a nice paycheck (145-160k plus bonus in a good economy). Then there's small law which pays in the 60-80k range. There's VERY FEW jobs between these two price points for starting attorneys that want to go to a private firm. So taking on a large amount of debt is very risky, especially the lower your school is ranked. You don't want to be paying 150k of debt off on a 60k a year salary.

Besides private practice you can also do government work, public interest (PI), or some other random job (sorry if I missed something). Neither of these pay great starting off, though government can be lucrative down the line, especially considering the low hours (or so I've been told).

Note: all of these statements are generalities, and there will always be the exception to the rule somewhere, but it's best not to rely on these exceptions when making your decision over what to do.

Some other info about the legal profession. More than 50% of attorneys hate their job, and the career is riddled with drug and alcohol problems, and you work A LOT. Think 2200 billable in a big firm, which, assuming a 75% efficiency rate is 2900-3000 hours a year, or 60 hours a week assuming you take two weeks of vacation (big assumption). While this doesn't sound bad, you won't be doing flat rate hours like this, some months you'll be upwards of 100 hours, others much lower. It's very up-and-down, especially in litigation. Corporate is arguably a little flatter (or so I've heard), but it still has its emergencies. It's also difficult to plan vacations and things because something can come up any minute that HAS to be done.

This is not to convince you not to become a lawyer, however. It's just to inform you of what you will be getting yourself into so you can make the smart choice. Being an attorney takes a special mind sight, and I am really excited to get started. I believe that those that make the conscious decision to go to law school and do this work, knowing full well what they are doing, are the one's happiest in the profession. Those that fell into law school because they had a major they couldn't do anything with and law school sounded like a lottery ticket are the ones that hate it. (I have nothing to support this conclusion except my gut feelings.)

Whatever you decide, good luck! And feel free to post questions here anytime. The more you know the better. Also check out the "sticky" posts at the tops of the different forums. They contain posts of tons of useful information.

Very useful information. Thanks.

When you say small law = 60-80k and big law = 140-160k is that for starting lawyers

I'm not going to be a lawyer for the money (although that is a huge advantage) but what is the potential for a lawyer to make? I'm sure it depends on different locations and other variables, if not, clue me in ^_^

Thanks again

[d34d9823]

Very useful information. Thanks.

When you say small law = 60-80k and big law = 140-160k is that for starting lawyers

I'm not going to be a lawyer for the money (although that is a huge advantage) but what is the potential for a lawyer to make? I'm sure it depends on different locations and other variables, if not, clue me in ^_^

Thanks again

As someone said, 140K+ if you get big law, and 30-50K if you miss it and end up in shitlaw (or unemployed). Pretty much the only thing in between is Public Interest and Government, which is probably 50-100K. Salaries are higher in NYC, otherwise they're pretty much the same across the board (e.g. lockstep is at 165K in NYC and 145K everywhere else for most firms).

[r6_philly]

Med school does *NOT* require a hard science background. They require certain courses before being admitted: pre-med courses.

You can do a pre-med while doing computer science *easily* since most of the pre-reqs for comp. sci. upper division consists of hard science and math. Hell, if you have enough time.. I've seen people do an Economics BA with pre-med and still be admitted to med school.

I didn't say hard science "major", I said "background". If you took the required pre-med courses then you have a background in it.

[JamesGilly]

Very useful information. Thanks.

When you say small law = 60-80k and big law = 140-160k is that for starting lawyers

I'm not going to be a lawyer for the money (although that is a huge advantage) but what is the potential for a lawyer to make? I'm sure it depends on different locations and other variables, if not, clue me in ^_^

Thanks again

As someone said, 140K+ if you get big law, and 30-50K if you miss it and end up in shitlaw (or unemployed). Pretty much the only thing in between is Public Interest and Government, which is probably 50-100K. Salaries are higher in NYC, otherwise they're pretty much the same across the board (e.g. lockstep is at 165K in NYC and 145K everywhere else for most firms).

Is that the starting salary or the salary you'll always make?

[d34d9823]

Very useful information. Thanks.

When you say small law = 60-80k and big law = 140-160k is that for starting lawyers

I'm not going to be a lawyer for the money (although that is a huge advantage) but what is the potential for a lawyer to make? I'm sure it depends on different locations and other variables, if not, clue me in ^_^

Thanks again

As someone said, 140K+ if you get big law, and 30-50K if you miss it and end up in shitlaw (or unemployed). Pretty much the only thing in between is Public Interest and Government, which is probably 50-100K. Salaries are higher in NYC, otherwise they're pretty much the same across the board (e.g. lockstep is at 165K in NYC and 145K everywhere else for most firms).

Is that the starting salary or the salary you'll always make?

Starting. In Big Law, associates who are deemed worthy to stay with the firm typically get a 10-15K raise. If you're brilliant lucky enough to make partner, you'll make ~1-4 million.

[JamesGilly]

Very useful information. Thanks.

When you say small law = 60-80k and big law = 140-160k is that for starting lawyers

I'm not going to be a lawyer for the money (although that is a huge advantage) but what is the potential for a lawyer to make? I'm sure it depends on different locations and other variables, if not, clue me in ^_^

Thanks again

As someone said, 140K+ if you get big law, and 30-50K if you miss it and end up in shitlaw (or unemployed). Pretty much the only thing in between is Public Interest and Government, which is probably 50-100K. Salaries are higher in NYC, otherwise they're pretty much the same across the board (e.g. lockstep is at 165K in NYC and 145K everywhere else for most firms).

Is that the starting salary or the salary you'll always make?

Starting. In Big Law, associates who are deemed worthy to stay with the firm typically get a 10-15K raise. If you're brilliant lucky enough to make partner, you'll make ~1-4 million.

Ahh ok thanks

[Veyron]

I think you may be getting the wrong idea from these threads, the plurality of starting attorneys (who get jobs) make 50K or so net of student loan payments.

Biglaw is the legal equivalent of playing for the NBA - don't count on it.

[JamesGilly]

I think you may be getting the wrong idea from these threads, the plurality of starting attorneys (who get jobs) make 50K or so net of student loan payments.

Biglaw is the legal equivalent of playing for the MBA - don't count on it.

Ok - This might seem like an extremely idiotic question - but here it goes


My dad is friends with a bunch of different lawyers in my town (It isn't really a big city, 90-110k people) and I know they make a lot of money. Would they be a part of big law or would they just own their own firms? I'm just trying to get a sense of how it all works haha, sorry for the dumb questions

[rso11]

In before thread devolves into "ENGINEERING OR LIFEFAIL" (Edit: guess I'm not)

Generally, my advice goes like this:
Major in what you like and be really good at it. BUT make sure to learn something practical along the way that you can turn into a job later if need be.

+1
Exactly. Don't listen to all these hard sci proponents. Practicality and empiricism aren't everything, not by a long shot.

[rso11]

In before thread devolves into "ENGINEERING OR LIFEFAIL" (Edit: guess I'm not)

Generally, my advice goes like this:
Major in what you like and be really good at it. BUT make sure to learn something practical along the way that you can turn into a job later if need be.

Thanks for the advice =)

I love English & History so I might major in one of the two. So many to choose from though ;D

HELL YES. ENGLISH ALL THE WAY! (just not poetry and Shakespeare! )

[Veyron]

I think you may be getting the wrong idea from these threads, the plurality of starting attorneys (who get jobs) make 50K or so net of student loan payments.

Biglaw is the legal equivalent of playing for the MBA - don't count on it.

Ok - This might seem like an extremely idiotic question - but here it goes


My dad is friends with a bunch of different lawyers in my town (It isn't really a big city, 90-110k people) and I know they make a lot of money. Would they be a part of big law or would they just own their own firms? I'm just trying to get a sense of how it all works haha, sorry for the dumb questions

In a city that small, its doubtful that there is any "biglaw". Look, in any industry, there are very capable people who make tons of money. However, consider that 1/2 of J.D. recipients don't even practice law (many because they can't find jobs). Another substantial portion review documents for 20 an hour for a living. Your friends went to law school at a time when the path upwards was relatively easier. While it is still possible to make a great deal of money in law in private practice, it takes many years and is unattainable for most.

[r6_philly]

Highest paying jobs in American, median salary mid career:

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag ... index.html

English and History? Note how much mid career attorneys make at median.

Then look at 90% pay ranking:

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag ... oppay.html

That's more like big law salary.

[JamesGilly]

I think you may be getting the wrong idea from these threads, the plurality of starting attorneys (who get jobs) make 50K or so net of student loan payments.

Biglaw is the legal equivalent of playing for the MBA - don't count on it.

Ok - This might seem like an extremely idiotic question - but here it goes


My dad is friends with a bunch of different lawyers in my town (It isn't really a big city, 90-110k people) and I know they make a lot of money. Would they be a part of big law or would they just own their own firms? I'm just trying to get a sense of how it all works haha, sorry for the dumb questions

In a city that small, its doubtful that there is any "biglaw". Look, in any industry, there are very capable people who make tons of money. However, consider that 1/2 of J.D. recipients don't even practice law (many because they can't find jobs). Another substantial portion review documents for 20 an hour for a living. Your friends went to law school at a time when the path upwards was relatively easier. While it is still possible to make a great deal of money in law outside of private practice, it takes many years and is unattainable for most.

Thanks for clearing that up

[bmwhype2]

Go to a state university on a full ride, take the easiest possible major, get a 4.0, spend all your free time studying for the LSAT from sophomore year on, ???, PROFIT!

a good portion of my L1 friends actually took this route. They were Philosophy or Philosophy,Politics& Law (PPL) majors during undergrad. They laughed at my 3.77 GPA (Finance major) with their near perfect GPAs.