Is Law School the new "College?" Forum

[GettingReady2010]

Yeah, your perspective might be a little different if you had these jobs in CA, the land of fire/police chiefs, city electricians, prison guards, tenured state university professors, etc...making above $100K/year base. On the down side, the state's bankrupt and rapidly becoming a cautionary tale for the future of the US economy...Oh, and these high paying public sector jobs in CA heavily depend on cronyism and/or very restrictive hiring policies. I'd get the hell out of here ASAP if it wasn't my home...

Exactly. The sense of entitlement is insane. With that said, I think that figure of 100k is a bit high.

It definitely seems high, but unfortunately it's not too gross an exaggeration. To be clear, I wasn't talking about entry level, though that's not bad either. Just google CA salaries for the jobs I listed if you're curious. Also, check sfgate for a recent story about SF city electricians, some making above $100K & others close to it, who recently were caught embezzling from the city. CSU and UC professor salaries are public record and you could check them via sfgate too (google "uc salaries"). And I know many high UC tenured prof salaries are base and require very little teaching. It's not like all those profs earning the big bucks bring in a shitload of grants (as some do) to justify their pay either.

The problem with CA is that PD and FD jobs allow almost unlimited overtime to be paid and it is milking the state dry. I have a friend who is a LA County Sheriff and he makes close to $100K a year. This state is indeed on the cusp of financial oblivion and I would urge any prospective law students to avoid any school in the state with the exception of Stanford or Berkeley. CA just sucks right now and will probably suck for a long time. Our budget deficit isn't going anywhere for a long time. Plus, good ole' Arnie just cut pay for state workers, not to mention that almost every government agency in CA is on a hiring freeze, including PD and FD.
The profs making tons of money at CSU's is true as well. I went to CSUN and the profs would complain about their work load to the students, then, as you go to the parking lot, you see them get into a Lexus or BMW and drive away. It just seems like a shitty system....at least at CSUN.

The problem is that CA will have a VERY hard time fixing this problem. Once people have something (i.e. high salary) they never want to give it up. I can just imagine if CA decided that it was going to pay govt. employees similar to the rest of the nation. There would be riots like in Greece.

[holydonkey]

I could do almost anything I want, but I don't really care to do anything that bad.

You are a wise and benevolent deity.

[drdolittle]

The problem with CA is that PD and FD jobs allow almost unlimited overtime to be paid and it is milking the state dry. I have a friend who is a LA County Sheriff and he makes close to $100K a year. This state is indeed on the cusp of financial oblivion and I would urge any prospective law students to avoid any school in the state with the exception of Stanford or Berkeley. CA just sucks right now and will probably suck for a long time. Our budget deficit isn't going anywhere for a long time. Plus, good ole' Arnie just cut pay for state workers, not to mention that almost every government agency in CA is on a hiring freeze, including PD and FD.
The profs making tons of money at CSU's is true as well. I went to CSUN and the profs would complain about their work load to the students, then, as you go to the parking lot, you see them get into a Lexus or BMW and drive away. It just seems like a shitty system....at least at CSUN.

I actually don't have as much of a problem with FD and PD being relatively well compensated (as long as their unions don't stand in the way of setting high employment/retention standards), as I do with prison guards, city electricians, and tenured state university profs with minimal teaching/grant writing responsibility making that much. But ironically the toughest PD jobs are getting hit hardest (as would be expected in a mismanaged state); for ex. Oakland just laid off 80 cops b/c the city gov and their union couldn't come to terms. And Oakland, CA is not exactly a place that needs less police (local criminals will of course disagree).

[bilbobaggins]

If individuals/companies in CA paid property taxes that weren't frozen in the 70s, we would be able to pay public workers a fair wage without running a huge deficit.

[GettingReady2010]

If individuals/companies in CA paid property taxes that weren't frozen in the 70s, we would be able to pay public workers a fair wage without running a huge deficit.

Go ahead and increase property taxes. See what that does to keep and attract new business and residents.

Also, how is 100k for electricians and cops a "fair wage?"

[drdolittle]

If individuals/companies in CA paid property taxes that weren't frozen in the 70s, we would be able to pay public workers a fair wage without running a huge deficit.

Definitely. This is a root of the problem, given the high COL in CA. And it might also begin to reign-in massively inflated property prices. But I don't have much faith that any more money coming into local and state gov would be managed any better.

[pjo]

Law school is a very bad decision for you. (Edit: OP) The fact that you find paralegal work boring is a REALLY bad start. A lot of lawyer work is paralegal work with a tiny extra bit of prestige.

idk what type of firm you're at but I'm at a small litigation firm and as far as my firm, your statement is completely untrue. The papralegal work is VERY tedious. Most of the attorneys here are rarely in the office. When they are, their breakdown is: 65% of the day on the phone talking with clients, 20% reviewing cases/prepping for trial 15% researching. The paralegals spend the whole day at their desk, building the tangible part of the case, filing, and scheduling appointments.

[drdolittle]

Law school is a very bad decision for you. (Edit: OP) The fact that you find paralegal work boring is a REALLY bad start. A lot of lawyer work is paralegal work with a tiny extra bit of prestige.

idk what type of firm you're at but I'm at a small litigation firm and as far as my firm, your statement is completely untrue. The papralegal work is VERY tedious. Most of the attorneys here are rarely in the office. When they are, their breakdown is: 65% of the day on the phone talking with clients, 20% reviewing cases/prepping for trial 15% researching. The paralegals spend the whole day at their desk, building the tangible part of the case, filing, and scheduling appointments.

Yeah, paralegals (or patent agents for that matter) generally do the grunt work, with their managing attorneys providing the oversight/client relations bs, and receiving the higher paycheck.

[bilbobaggins]

If individuals/companies in CA paid property taxes that weren't frozen in the 70s, we would be able to pay public workers a fair wage without running a huge deficit.

Go ahead and increase property taxes. See what that does to keep and attract new business and residents.

Also, how is 100k for electricians and cops a "fair wage?"

How is $160k for an entry level biglaw paper pusher a fair wage?

[Patriot1208]

If individuals/companies in CA paid property taxes that weren't frozen in the 70s, we would be able to pay public workers a fair wage without running a huge deficit.

Go ahead and increase property taxes. See what that does to keep and attract new business and residents.

Also, how is 100k for electricians and cops a "fair wage?"

How is $160k for an entry level biglaw paper pusher a fair wage?

Don't know to any local cops make a 100,000k? You have to either be high up (meaning the best at what you do) or a federal agent (which also means best at what you do). And people who are very good at something make good money no matter what the job is.

[waitlisted1]

I've been reading your posts...many are good, many have barely any relation to what I've been talking about (I did not intend for this to be a thread on California's politics).

Anyway, it's been good to bring this up but I'm just going to try to express my frustration with this process as plainly as I can. (I'd like to rap or make it a poem or something but I'm too lazy/unskilled to try to make it rhyme) So here goes...

Ahem....

Look you have to put your heart behind something or someone(s). My 'someone' situation is complicated, but doesn't look good for the time being. But really...so what the fuck am I supposed to do? I hate this law scam. Just let me be an attorney with my own direction. I hate that they are making me sacrifice everything (huge loans, 3+ years) just to help the world. Fuck my LSAT and all these applications Fuck this crushing, burdensome debt. Fuck people who stop trying once they are comfortable. Fuck people who bottle up what bothers them and act like everything is OK when it's really not. Fuck all of you who are going to tell me to stop complaining. Alot of people need help in the world and I've always bent over backwards to help those in need when I could. And I enjoy it and would like to continue doing it in the future, and the law is everywhere and an attorney allows me the best way to help everyone doing whatever while not cementing myself into one single profession. I'm sooooo sorry I couldn't have been a great athlete/singer and just taken that road. And wow I'm sorry that I couldn't be stupid enough to know exactly what I want to do for the next 25 years of my life when I'm only fresh out of college. What's my skill? I don't freakin have one (sure yes, reading/writing/"critical thinking", etc.). I'm OK at most things and I know a little bit about everything. And as a lawyer I can help people in that regard because while I dedicate myself as a lawyer I'm intellectually and physically adaptable. The world changes so quickly and greatly, it's mind blowing. It's the best way I know how to cope with the change. Bottom line: I know I can help people, why is everyone trying to make it so god damn hard for me? You want to give me a hard time but then give a-rod millions of dollars? You are freakin idiots. Fuck you world! Fuck YOU!!!!

You can't separate work/life/money/others. It's all tied in, we all go through the same crap, if you don't believe me watch discovery channel (LIFE is really good). So stop being such assholes and making it hard on each other. Especially me, I'm here to help you.

(this rant is probably completely inappropriate, but wow that felt good)

[GettingReady2010]

If individuals/companies in CA paid property taxes that weren't frozen in the 70s, we would be able to pay public workers a fair wage without running a huge deficit.

Go ahead and increase property taxes. See what that does to keep and attract new business and residents.

Also, how is 100k for electricians and cops a "fair wage?"

How is $160k for an entry level biglaw paper pusher a fair wage?

I never said it was, but that is the free market. Electricians aside, cops are government employees. CA's economy is not in the toilet because biglaw associates are starting at 160k. It's in the toilet, because the STATE has decided it can afford to spend it's money like a drunken sailor - to use a terrible cliche.

As a side note, I actually asked the wrong question to your post. The question should have been, "how is 100k for electricians and cops not a "fair wage?"

[GettingReady2010]

If individuals/companies in CA paid property taxes that weren't frozen in the 70s, we would be able to pay public workers a fair wage without running a huge deficit.

Go ahead and increase property taxes. See what that does to keep and attract new business and residents.

Also, how is 100k for electricians and cops a "fair wage?"

How is $160k for an entry level biglaw paper pusher a fair wage?

Don't know to any local cops make a 100,000k? You have to either be high up (meaning the best at what you do) or a federal agent (which also means best at what you do). And people who are very good at something make good money no matter what the job is.

I said that I thought that figure was a bit high. I was going off of another poster that I assumed lived in CA.

[AR75]

I don't know about the relationship between law school and college, but I DO know that law school is the new black.

[Stringer Bell]

RE: California Budget Issues

Land use restrictions + government mandates about "fair lending" created a housing bubble that sent housing prices through the roof. High COL enabled govt employee unions to negotiate agreements that have become fiscally difficult to maintain.

FWIW, out of all the states I have visited, California is my favorite. It just has a political climate that makes economic prosperity difficult.

[GettingReady2010]

RE: California Budget Issues

Land use restrictions + government mandates about "fair lending" created a housing bubble that sent housing prices through the roof. High COL enabled govt employee unions to negotiate agreements that have become fiscally difficult to maintain.

FWIW, out of all the states I have visited, California is my favorite. It just has a political climate that makes economic prosperity difficult.

TITCR. CA has so much going for it, but it has successfully squandered its opportunities.

[drdolittle]

Don't know to any local cops make a 100,000k? You have to either be high up (meaning the best at what you do) or a federal agent (which also means best at what you do). And people who are very good at something make good money no matter what the job is.

I said that I thought that figure was a bit high. I was going off of another poster that I assumed lived in CA.

Not like it really matters, but to set the record straight taking SFPD as an example: "The current annual entry-level salary for Police Officers is: $79,716 to $106,678." Now SF might be a high mark even for CA, but probably not by much.

(http://www.sfpdcareers.com/benefits.html)

[paz]

--ImageRemoved--

[Knock]

Don't know to any local cops make a 100,000k? You have to either be high up (meaning the best at what you do) or a federal agent (which also means best at what you do). And people who are very good at something make good money no matter what the job is.

I said that I thought that figure was a bit high. I was going off of another poster that I assumed lived in CA.

Not like it really matters, but to set the record straight taking SFPD as an example: "The current annual entry-level salary for Police Officers is: $79,716 to $106,678." Now SF might be a high mark even for CA, but probably not by much.

(http://www.sfpdcareers.com/benefits.html)

Screw law school, i'm joining SFPD!!!!

Edit, NVM. after clicking "apply" i get this:

Test Dates, Times, and Locations

Due to the large number of candidates who already have successfully completed the testing process, no future test dates are planned at this time. Please check the website periodically for updates concerning the entry-level, police officer testing program.

Oh well, guess it's back to the whole law school thing for me.

[drdolittle]

Screw law school, i'm joining SFPD!!!!

Edit, NVM. after clicking "apply" i get this:

Test Dates, Times, and Locations

Due to the large number of candidates who already have successfully completed the testing process, no future test dates are planned at this time. Please check the website periodically for updates concerning the entry-level, police officer testing program.

Oh well, guess it's back to the whole law school thing for me.

Nice work. OP might think it's irrelevant, but this was a very useful exercise showing that at least this one well paying local gov job is not a real alternative to law school (unless you already have SFPD connections or fulfill some hiring req, I imagine), which basically also was a point made above. I'd expect other similarly paid public sector jobs to be effectively closed as well, at least here in CA.

[calicocat]

[Patriot1208]

Don't know to any local cops make a 100,000k? You have to either be high up (meaning the best at what you do) or a federal agent (which also means best at what you do). And people who are very good at something make good money no matter what the job is.

I said that I thought that figure was a bit high. I was going off of another poster that I assumed lived in CA.

Not like it really matters, but to set the record straight taking SFPD as an example: "The current annual entry-level salary for Police Officers is: $79,716 to $106,678." Now SF might be a high mark even for CA, but probably not by much.

(http://www.sfpdcareers.com/benefits.html)

You took the highest COL city in the entire country, which has also been well documented as paying their public service workers well above other cities, even in CA, and used that as an example?

80,000 dollars in SF is the equivalent of about 38,000 in most midwestern cities according to COL calculators. C'mon now.

[drdolittle]

You took the highest COL city in the entire country, which has also been well documented as paying their public service workers well above other cities, even in CA, and used that as an example?

80,000 dollars in SF is the equivalent of about 38,000 in most midwestern cities according to COL calculators. C'mon now.

Read the posts above. The discussion was about CA specifically. And for those of us living in CA, SF COL is not too far above other CA cities like LA, San Diego, Berkeley, Palo Alto...The point was not about COL anyway, but you're right that anything in SF's probably a high example even for CA, it's just the city I'm most familiar with.

[Fred_McGriff]

This chime in goes for the "is a cop worth $100,000 a year." There is no economic rationale that's equipped to answer that, going completely off the cuff I'd say in SF there is no way in hell the cops are worth that, the city is super safe and peaceful even at its worst. For Oakland, I think 100k should be the entry level. Those cops go into warzones, and lots of them end up dead, I think 4 were killed last year.

[bilbobaggins]

You took the highest COL city in the entire country, which has also been well documented as paying their public service workers well above other cities, even in CA, and used that as an example?

80,000 dollars in SF is the equivalent of about 38,000 in most midwestern cities according to COL calculators. C'mon now.

Read the posts above. The discussion was about CA specifically. And for those of us living in CA, SF COL is not too far above other CA cities like LA, San Diego, Berkeley, Palo Alto...The point was not about COL anyway, but you're right that anything in SF's probably a high example even for CA, it's just the city I'm most familiar with.

It's the second or third most expensive city in the country (depending on your metric).