law school employment and T14 syndrome Forum

[270910]

OCI is how Big law jobs are obtained in most circumstances ( not all). .

Big crux of the argument, to which I have two objections

A) Assumption; the concentration of wealth is in big law jobs. For all we know, many of these people could be making great bucks in solo practice with strong connections. Am I saying that is the case? No, I don't know, but citation needed to show me not.

B) Where are you getting your evidence for this claim that OCI is how big law divies jobs?

This is the funniest shit on TLS, you should keep it up

[thecilent]

OCI is how Big law jobs are obtained in most circumstances ( not all). .

Big crux of the argument, to which I have two objections

A) Assumption; the concentration of wealth is in big law jobs. For all we know, many of these people could be making great bucks in solo practice with strong connections. Am I saying that is the case? No, I don't know, but citation needed to show me not.

B) Where are you getting your evidence for this claim that OCI is how big law divies jobs?

I don't understand how/why you are disputing this. This is common knowledge I think everywhere

[vandalvideo]

I don't understand how/why you are disputing this. This is common knowledge I think everywhere

If it is common knowledge, surely it can't be hard to prove. I'm merely asking for proof. Don't shoot the skeptic.

[ggocat]

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

How did BU send so many into academia?

Nobody really knows what the academia stat means, because even the top of the class at Yale doesn't go into anything that could be considered "academia" immediately after law school. Best guess is that it's what some schools use to represent things like students getting LLMs, which doesn't fall into the category "graduate school." But it doesn't mean BU is pumping out law professors.

Also maybe jobs in the law school library, career services office, admissions office, and post-grad research assistants.

Not BU, but close: BCLS Rolls Out Plans to Help Graduating Students, EAGLEIONLINE, Apr. 28, 2009, --LinkRemoved-- (reporting that the law school will employ graduates in the law library and that “graduates are being welcomed to apply for [research] assistantships with professors”).

[thecilent]

I don't understand how/why you are disputing this. This is common knowledge I think everywhere

If it is common knowledge, surely it can't be hard to prove. I'm merely asking for proof. Don't shoot the skeptic.

Just because something is common knowledge, doesn't mean it is easily proved. Fail.

Also: If you just think about it, it makes sense. But I hope someone else will come along and provide something more tangible for youu

[jnorsky]

OCI is how Big law jobs are obtained in most circumstances ( not all). .

Big crux of the argument, to which I have two objections

A) Assumption; the concentration of wealth is in big law jobs. For all we know, many of these people could be making great bucks in solo practice with strong connections. Am I saying that is the case? No, I don't know, but citation needed to show me not.

B) Where are you getting your evidence for this claim that OCI is how big law divies jobs?

A) There is NO assumption that the concentration of wealth in law is in big law jobs, I never once stated that or tried to state that, you clearly misunderstood what i was saying. But solo practices do not recruit on campus and rarely hire straight out of law school grads (citation = talking to lawyers, working at small firm, doing research, and understanding the dynamic of the legal market) so you cannot use solo practice as being included for employment prospects for graduates.

B) you are obviously on here a lot, telling from your post count yet you know so little. Big law associates (for the mot part) come from OCI's. That is how classes are created. This is not just in law either but in business as well. Firms recruit through OCI. It is a fact. I wish i had transcripts from my conversations with partners at big law firms and other organizations but I do not, so i guess youll need a citation there as well. But unless you have amazing grades or your daddy is a hiring partner, you will probably not be getting a big law job from a firm that doesnt recruit at your school.

[270910]

I don't understand how/why you are disputing this. This is common knowledge I think everywhere

If it is common knowledge, surely it can't be hard to prove. I'm merely asking for proof. Don't shoot the skeptic.

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... &p=1875304

--LinkRemoved--

--LinkRemoved--

http://legaltimes.typepad.com/blt/2010/ ... hools.html

http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblaw ... place.html

--LinkRemoved--

--LinkRemoved--

http://www.xoxohth.com/

http://www.elsblog.org/the_empirical_le ... on-of.html

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/

--LinkRemoved--

http://volokh.com/2010/01/16/thought-on ... ol-grades/

http://www.nalpdirectory.com/

http://www.vault.com/wps/portal/usa

http://www.chambersandpartners.com/

http://www.bcgsearch.com/article/60995/609/2010-Summer

http://abovethelaw.com/

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/biglaw-e ... -a-debate/

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/michigan ... ounseling/

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/04/2l-at-ka ... -than-oci/

http://abovethelaw.com/2009/01/fall-oci ... aw-school/

In sum, you're a little late to the party, cupcake.

[get it to x]

I mean, I'm asking a question not making a statement, it's fun to act like I'm retarded but I'm just someone that knows less than you. Sorry if I came off like a snob, it just seems that if you trust their employment data that would be the case. If that's all bullshit than obviously it falls apart and then clearly HLS has the better career prospects and salary and so on and so forth, but according to their websites they pan out equally to the layman. And I'm not just saying by using pictures and writing nice things about their faculty, I'm saying in terms of the statistics they lay out for you. That's the point I was trying to make, not to say that HLS and W&M were equivalent...


Anyways, the conclusion is that the majority of law schools misrepresent their data? Isn't that false advertising?

This chart is badly out of date, but the relative information it shows is still fairly accurate. It was compiled by third parties and NOT the self reports/surveys that schools publish. Take a gander, then tell me how you feel about the Harvard vs. W&M distinction.

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

I recognize that this chart is considerably out of date, but always found it to be intriguing. Schools like Rutgers out-placing Cardozo, Brooklyn, and St. Johns. Know some of those jobs are in the Biglaw offices in Jersey, but found that to be interesting. Also, thought Fordham's small number of judicial clerkships reinforced the necessity of their grads to work in the private sector due to high tuition and high cost of living in NYC.

[270910]

I mean, I'm asking a question not making a statement, it's fun to act like I'm retarded but I'm just someone that knows less than you. Sorry if I came off like a snob, it just seems that if you trust their employment data that would be the case. If that's all bullshit than obviously it falls apart and then clearly HLS has the better career prospects and salary and so on and so forth, but according to their websites they pan out equally to the layman. And I'm not just saying by using pictures and writing nice things about their faculty, I'm saying in terms of the statistics they lay out for you. That's the point I was trying to make, not to say that HLS and W&M were equivalent...


Anyways, the conclusion is that the majority of law schools misrepresent their data? Isn't that false advertising?

This chart is badly out of date, but the relative information it shows is still fairly accurate. It was compiled by third parties and NOT the self reports/surveys that schools publish. Take a gander, then tell me how you feel about the Harvard vs. W&M distinction.

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

I recognize that this chart is considerably out of date, but always found it to be intriguing. Schools like Rutgers out-placing Cardozo, Brooklyn, and St. Johns. Know some of those jobs are in the Biglaw offices in Jersey, but found that to be interesting. Also, thought Fordham's small number of judicial clerkships reinforced the necessity of their grads to work in the private sector due to high tuition and high cost of living in NYC.

In my opinion, that chart is the best thing ever created. It's imperfect, and everyone knows it, but it's about as good as it gets in terms of a 'bird's eye' view of legal hiring.

[Borhas]

I guess I'm just confused and am missing something that all these haters seem to have figured out. I was hoping someone could enlighten me.

my guess is that a legal education ("thinking like a lawyer" yada yada yada) from W&M and Harvard would be about the same

also, people make the claim that the "top" schools have the best students (LSAT+GPA) but when asked if a high GPA/LSAT student could have justification in believing that he would more likely rank higher in a pool of lower GPA/LSAT people they all agree that it's a big NO. FWIW I think the second is probably more accurate.

so... it's kind of hard to say really, but my conclusion is that it is prestige driven, but that's how big law recruiting works. Also remember, the main goal of TLS folks is to get high paying firm jobs in which all the training, business, and overhead is done for them. Fact is that the idea of being a solo sawyer and starting a business is just beyond the comprehension of people here, so schools that do well in placing students in firms are more valued. Schools like Harvard will achieve that aim, their Big Firms are Bigger, their government jobs more Federal less state and local, etc so even if the Harvard guy turned and went to the top of W&M he would have fewer Big Law opportunities simply because of the collective delusion most are under.

[get it to x]

I mean, I'm asking a question not making a statement, it's fun to act like I'm retarded but I'm just someone that knows less than you. Sorry if I came off like a snob, it just seems that if you trust their employment data that would be the case. If that's all bullshit than obviously it falls apart and then clearly HLS has the better career prospects and salary and so on and so forth, but according to their websites they pan out equally to the layman. And I'm not just saying by using pictures and writing nice things about their faculty, I'm saying in terms of the statistics they lay out for you. That's the point I was trying to make, not to say that HLS and W&M were equivalent...


Anyways, the conclusion is that the majority of law schools misrepresent their data? Isn't that false advertising?

This chart is badly out of date, but the relative information it shows is still fairly accurate. It was compiled by third parties and NOT the self reports/surveys that schools publish. Take a gander, then tell me how you feel about the Harvard vs. W&M distinction.

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

I recognize that this chart is considerably out of date, but always found it to be intriguing. Schools like Rutgers out-placing Cardozo, Brooklyn, and St. Johns. Know some of those jobs are in the Biglaw offices in Jersey, but found that to be interesting. Also, thought Fordham's small number of judicial clerkships reinforced the necessity of their grads to work in the private sector due to high tuition and high cost of living in NYC.

In my opinion, that chart is the best thing ever created. It's imperfect, and everyone knows it, but it's about as good as it gets in terms of a 'bird's eye' view of legal hiring.

Agreed. I think if you were to ask any applicant at the start of the process who places more grads in BigLaw - NYU or Harvard, I'd venture that Harvard would win easily. The graph has interesting results whether you're debating between attending two top-14's or top-100 schools.

[Integrity]

Yes, many people on here are wildly obsessed with prestige and status and have anointed the T14 as the proverbial popular crowd. There is much truth to their claims, but they are a bit fatalistic and elitist at times. Your supposition that people do well without the T14 is likely substantiated. You are dealing with a rather extreme population here.

[270910]

Agreed. I think if you were to ask any applicant at the start of the process who places more grads in BigLaw - NYU or Harvard, I'd venture that Harvard would win easily. The graph has interesting results whether you're debating between attending two top-14's or top-100 schools.

Yes, but be careful - Harvard grads might spin off more to absurdly elite firms that aren't vault ranked (see, e.g., susman), take on more clerkships, have more opportunities in business, etc. So it's rough, but it still absolutely shows the relative strength in the big gov, big firm, big clerkship, etc. type jobs most law students are after.

[get it to x]

I guess I'm just confused and am missing something that all these haters seem to have figured out. I was hoping someone could enlighten me.

my guess is that a legal education ("thinking like a lawyer" yada yada yada) from W&M and Harvard would be about the same

also, people make the claim that the "top" schools have the best students (LSAT+GPA) but when asked if a high GPA/LSAT student could have justification in believing that he would more likely rank higher in a pool of lower GPA/LSAT people they all agree that it's a big NO. FWIW I think the second is probably more accurate.

so... it's kind of hard to say really, but my conclusion is that it is prestige driven, but that's how big law recruiting works. Also remember, the main goal of TLS folks is to get high paying firm jobs in which all the training, business, and overhead is done for them. Fact is that the idea of being a solo sawyer and starting a business is just beyond the comprehension of people here, so schools that do well in placing students in firms are more valued. Schools like Harvard will achieve that aim, their Big Firms are Bigger, their government jobs more Federal less state and local, etc so even if the Harvard guy turned and went to the top of W&M he would have fewer Big Law opportunities simply because of the collective delusion most are under.

Borhas, I have to disagree in part that the main goal of TLS forumites is obtaining a high paying job.
Are there a significant number of prestige whores on here? Yes. Do people fudge numbers, schools they've been admitted to and engage in psychological warfare with others to achieve their ends? Yup. However, I believe the heart and soul of TLS is simply risk-aversion. Whether it's taking schollie dollies from NYU vs. sticker from Stanford or IU with money vs. St. Johns at sticker, people are trying to find the best fit that minimizes their risk and puts them in a position to achieve their goals at the least risk to themselves.

[thecilent]

I don't understand how/why you are disputing this. This is common knowledge I think everywhere

If it is common knowledge, surely it can't be hard to prove. I'm merely asking for proof. Don't shoot the skeptic.

http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... &p=1875304

--LinkRemoved--

--LinkRemoved--

http://legaltimes.typepad.com/blt/2010/ ... hools.html

http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblaw ... place.html

--LinkRemoved--

--LinkRemoved--

http://www.xoxohth.com/

http://www.elsblog.org/the_empirical_le ... on-of.html

http://www.lawschooltransparency.com/

--LinkRemoved--

http://volokh.com/2010/01/16/thought-on ... ol-grades/

http://www.nalpdirectory.com/

http://www.vault.com/wps/portal/usa

http://www.chambersandpartners.com/

http://www.bcgsearch.com/article/60995/609/2010-Summer

http://abovethelaw.com/

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/biglaw-e ... -a-debate/

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/michigan ... ounseling/

http://abovethelaw.com/2010/04/2l-at-ka ... -than-oci/

http://abovethelaw.com/2009/01/fall-oci ... aw-school/

In sum, you're a little late to the party, cupcake.

Diligent work, Disco

[thisguy456]

And I would love to listen to your anecdotes all day, but I'm not terribly convinced that you're representative of the majority.

How not convinced are you? Needs some further support.

It always seems to be those in trouble who are the most vocal.

Citation needed.

How do I not know there is some silent majority out there who is doing great and getting awesome jobs?

Correct. Law schools in general go through terrible lengths to fudge the numbers and juke the stats because their graduates are just so damn silent and don't report their awesome jobs.

I have no horse in this race because I'm going public interest after law school.

Too many students say their going into public interest and then go the firm route after realizing crushing debt. Further proof needed.

[vandalvideo]

A) There is NO assumption that the concentration of wealth in law is in big law jobs, I never once stated that or tried to state that, you clearly misunderstood what i was saying. But solo practices do not recruit on campus and rarely hire straight out of law school grads (citation = talking to lawyers, working at small firm, doing research, and understanding the dynamic of the legal market) so you cannot use solo practice as being included for employment prospects for graduates.

I'm sorry, but "your word" is hardly a proper citation. I need some kind of external link, something tangible which I can actually read. Anyone can say anything on an internet forum. I'm going to need actual proof.

B) you are obviously on here a lot, telling from your post count yet you know so little. Big law associates (for the mot part) come from OCI's. That is how classes are created. This is not just in law either but in business as well. Firms recruit through OCI. It is a fact. I wish i had transcripts from my conversations with partners at big law firms and other organizations but I do not, so i guess youll need a citation there as well. But unless you have amazing grades or your daddy is a hiring partner, you will probably not be getting a big law job from a firm that doesnt recruit at your school.

I don't care how many times you people claim this, I demand evidence.

[vandalvideo]

In sum, you're a little late to the party, cupcake.

None of the links you provided establish a causal link between OCI and big law jobs. While it may show the amount of big law jobs each school gets, that is insufficient to show distribution of wealth or mode of employment.

[270910]

In sum, you're a little late to the party, cupcake.

None of the links you provided establish a causal link between OCI and big law jobs. While it may show the amount of big law jobs each school gets, that is insufficient to show distribution of wealth or mode of employment.

TLS troll of the year. Really, top notch. I'd give you a standing ovation, but this is the internet, and...

Edit: Oh, here we go -

[thecilent]

In sum, you're a little late to the party, cupcake.

None of the links you provided establish a causal link between OCI and big law jobs. While it may show the amount of big law jobs each school gets, that is insufficient to show distribution of wealth or mode of employment.

jlsfdlkdfhjlsdahfklsda

[Grizz]

In sum, you're a little late to the party, cupcake.

None of the links you provided establish a causal link between OCI and big law jobs. While it may show the amount of big law jobs each school gets, that is insufficient to show distribution of wealth or mode of employment.

And to think that once upon a time, I considered you a decent poster.

[vandalvideo]

TLS troll of the year. Really, top notch. I'd give you a standing ovation, but this is the internet, and...

I'm not a troll, I'm just a guy asking for evidence. I took this long to respond because I was taking the time to actually read the links you provided. About half of them are anecdotes from law school graduates complaining about the legal market, a small amount showing the distribution of big law jobs between schools, another good portion showing the state of OCI recruitment on campuses, and some showing the wealth distribution among graduates at some provided schools. I assume you didn't expect me to dig through the links you provided. None of them establish which medium law graduates obtain their big law jobs through. Nor does it necessarily show where the wealth from the classes is coming from. Your links provide great general oversight of the type of wealth one can expect from given schools, but it doesn't say where that wealth is coming from. You just compiled a list of random links which don't really overcome the objections I brought up. I still demand to know;

How you know that OCI is the main avenue by which big law recruits and how you know that big law constitutes the largest sector of wealth for law graduates. None of this was address in your links.

[thisguy456]

A) There is NO assumption that the concentration of wealth in law is in big law jobs, I never once stated that or tried to state that, you clearly misunderstood what i was saying. But solo practices do not recruit on campus and rarely hire straight out of law school grads (citation = talking to lawyers, working at small firm, doing research, and understanding the dynamic of the legal market) so you cannot use solo practice as being included for employment prospects for graduates.

I'm sorry, but "your word" is hardly a proper citation. I need some kind of external link, something tangible which I can actually read. Anyone can say anything on an internet forum. I'm going to need actual proof.

B) you are obviously on here a lot, telling from your post count yet you know so little. Big law associates (for the mot part) come from OCI's. That is how classes are created. This is not just in law either but in business as well. Firms recruit through OCI. It is a fact. I wish i had transcripts from my conversations with partners at big law firms and other organizations but I do not, so i guess youll need a citation there as well. But unless you have amazing grades or your daddy is a hiring partner, you will probably not be getting a big law job from a firm that doesnt recruit at your school.

I don't care how many times you people claim this, I demand evidence.

Hey guys, I'm just gonna be an asshole and play the contrarian and have an opinion and refuse to budge despite the evidence out there and I will refuse to provide my own evidence for why I think the way I do.

[vandalvideo]

Hey guys, I'm just gonna be an asshole and play the contrarian and have an opinion and refuse to budge despite the evidence out there and I will refuse to provide my own evidence for why I think the way I do.

Questioning the foundation for the opinions of others does not itself constitute an opinion. Do I think that a WM experience is equal to Harvard? I don't know. I honestly, wholeheartedly don't know. Many out there claim they do know, and the answer is no. I'm merely asking them to convince me with an honest, thorough investigation. That is not being "contrarian", that is being intellectually curious.

[270910]

TLS troll of the year. Really, top notch. I'd give you a standing ovation, but this is the internet, and...

I'm not a troll, I'm just a guy asking for evidence. I took this long to respond because I was taking the time to actually read the links you provided. About half of them are anecdotes from law school graduates complaining about the legal market, a small amount showing the distribution of big law jobs between schools, another good portion showing the state of OCI recruitment on campuses, and some showing the wealth distribution among graduates at some provided schools. I assume you didn't expect me to dig through the links you provided. None of them establish which medium law graduates obtain their big law jobs through. Nor does it necessarily show where the wealth from the classes is coming from. Your links provide great general oversight of the type of wealth one can expect from given schools, but it doesn't say where that wealth is coming from. You just compiled a list of random links which don't really overcome the objections I brought up. I still demand to know;

How you know that OCI is the main avenue by which big law recruits and how you know that big law constitutes the largest sector of wealth for law graduates. None of this was address in your links.

Outstanding. Really dug in there, didn't given an inch.

First, a repeat, as it is warranted:



--ImageRemoved--