Is Anyone Paying Sticker for a T2 School? Forum

[afterglow99]

There's absolutely no reason to go to any private NYC area school besides Columbia, NYU, or Fordham at sticker price. If you can't get into one of those, don't feed the fire of overpriced T2 and T3 tuition increases. If people wise up, maybe these places will finally be unable to fill their classes and the market will adjust prices back to a realistic level.

If you don't want to retake, consider your state's school. It probably won't give you a chance at biglaw, but with fewer loans, you could live comfortably at 50,000 a year (especially outside of metro NYC) and would have flexibility in terms of the type of legal career you want to pursue. If you must be in NYC, go to Rutgers Newark. The place isn't too hot, but they give everyone in state tuition (22k/year) and provide the same career prospects as 'Dozo/BLS/Seton Hall/St Johns for half the price. Newark sucks, but it's still something to think about.

[b.j.]

1. You assume that your employment prospects will depend on the state of the economy three years from now, rather than one year from now.

2. You think you'll probably get a biglaw job (though "not in the V10" - I guess you're just going to settle for the V20?).

3. In the alternative, you think you'll be able to transfer to a top 10 school.

4. You think that being in the top 10% isn't that hard.

5. You claim to be willing to eat ~$60,000 in first-year cost of attendance if you don't do well your first year.

6. You think that you'll get scholarship money for doing well your first year.

In short, you're an idiot six times over, in all the quintessential ways an aspiring law student could be an idiot.

1. I was under the impression that summer associate work depended on your standing after your second year.

2. No, not really. I'd say the odds are against working for Skadden or Cravath, in a number of ways. But as a sort of random starting point, rather than look around for random firms, I looked at the bottom of the list of the Vault 100 at what, to me at least, seemed like good firms where the competition to get jobs isn't nearly as severe as it is to get a job at a truly elite firm. That doesn't make it easy, of course, just relatively easier. Or is there no difference, with some firm that is ranked 90-100 being considered Big Law as well? If I have a misunderstanding of what constitutes Big Law, forgive me.

3. Well, if I do well, perhaps I can.

4. I'm sorry if I give this impression, but I don't think this is the case. I just don't think it's impossible.

5. On this point, you are correct. I thought it was clear why that's the case.

6. Well, yes, because on the site of the school I might be attending, it said that they do give out Dean's scholarships for people in their second year who do well in the first. Whether I actually get one is far from clear, but the possibility, however remote, is there.

Maybe I am being really naive, but there's no reason to be a jerk about it. As pathetic is this might be to you, I'm trying to figure out what I should do with my life. Yes, that might involve saying some misguided things. If it's really too unbearable for you to read, go to another thread. Or just throw yourself in front of a bus.

[megaTTTron]

1. You assume that your employment prospects will depend on the state of the economy three years from now, rather than one year from now.

2. You think you'll probably get a biglaw job (though "not in the V10" - I guess you're just going to settle for the V20?).

3. In the alternative, you think you'll be able to transfer to a top 10 school.

4. You think that being in the top 10% isn't that hard.

5. You claim to be willing to eat ~$60,000 in first-year cost of attendance if you don't do well your first year.

6. You think that you'll get scholarship money for doing well your first year.

In short, you're an idiot six times over, in all the quintessential ways an aspiring law student could be an idiot.

1. I was under the impression that summer associate work depended on your standing after your second year.

2. No, not really. I'd say the odds are against working for Skadden or Cravath, in a number of ways. But as a sort of random starting point, rather than look around for random firms, I looked at the bottom of the list of the Vault 100 at what, to me at least, seemed like good firms where the competition to get jobs isn't nearly as severe as it is to get a job at a truly elite firm. That doesn't make it easy, of course, just relatively easier. Or is there no difference, with some firm that is ranked 90-100 being considered Big Law as well? If I have a misunderstanding of what constitutes Big Law, forgive me.

3. Well, if I do well, perhaps I can.

4. I'm sorry if I give this impression, but I don't think this is the case. I just don't think it's impossible.

5. On this point, you are correct. I thought it was clear why that's the case.

6. Well, yes, because on the site of the school I might be attending, it said that they do give out Dean's scholarships for people in their second year who do well in the first. Whether I actually get one is far from clear, but the possibility, however remote, is there.

Maybe I am being really naive, but there's no reason to be a jerk about it. As pathetic is this might be to you, I'm trying to figure out what I should do with my life. Yes, that might involve saying some misguided things. If it's really too unbearable for you to read, go to another thread. Or just throw yourself in front of a bus.

Bottom line: few people pay sticker at t2s. And those who do ARE FUCKED. We're trying to help you. It's hard to see now, but you will be fucked in all but a few circumstances. And so no matter how they package it, take this advice to heart.

[b.j.]

There's absolutely no reason to go to any private NYC area school besides Columbia, NYU, or Fordham at sticker price. If you can't get into one of those, don't feed the fire of overpriced T2 and T3 tuition increases. If people wise up, maybe these places will finally be unable to fill their classes and the market will adjust prices back to a realistic level.

If you don't want to retake, consider your state's school. It probably won't give you a chance at biglaw, but with fewer loans, you could live comfortably at 50,000 a year (especially outside of metro NYC) and would have flexibility in terms of the type of legal career you want to pursue. If you must be in NYC, go to Rutgers Newark. The place isn't too hot, but they give everyone in state tuition (22k/year) and provide the same career prospects as 'Dozo/BLS/Seton Hall/St Johns for half the price. Newark sucks, but it's still something to think about.

I applied to both Newark and Camden. I received one of those awkward summer/evening/part time letters from Camden, and while I thought Newark wait listed me, after seeing or imagining/hallucinating something for a split second on the online status checker, I got a rejection letter in the mail.

I applied to Seton Hall, but PT, and have yet to hear from them. The same goes for Chicago-Kent, although they moved my in review status once or twice already. I was wait listed at Pittsburgh but never sent anything, so I doubt I will get in, and have yet to hear from Brooklyn or Cardozo, but I am not sure I'd bother going there unless I got some serious need-based aid.

[b.j.]

1. You assume that your employment prospects will depend on the state of the economy three years from now, rather than one year from now.

2. You think you'll probably get a biglaw job (though "not in the V10" - I guess you're just going to settle for the V20?).

3. In the alternative, you think you'll be able to transfer to a top 10 school.

4. You think that being in the top 10% isn't that hard.

5. You claim to be willing to eat ~$60,000 in first-year cost of attendance if you don't do well your first year.

6. You think that you'll get scholarship money for doing well your first year.

In short, you're an idiot six times over, in all the quintessential ways an aspiring law student could be an idiot.

1. I was under the impression that summer associate work depended on your standing after your second year.

2. No, not really. I'd say the odds are against working for Skadden or Cravath, in a number of ways. But as a sort of random starting point, rather than look around for random firms, I looked at the bottom of the list of the Vault 100 at what, to me at least, seemed like good firms where the competition to get jobs isn't nearly as severe as it is to get a job at a truly elite firm. That doesn't make it easy, of course, just relatively easier. Or is there no difference, with some firm that is ranked 90-100 being considered Big Law as well? If I have a misunderstanding of what constitutes Big Law, forgive me.

3. Well, if I do well, perhaps I can.

4. I'm sorry if I give this impression, but I don't think this is the case. I just don't think it's impossible.

5. On this point, you are correct. I thought it was clear why that's the case.

6. Well, yes, because on the site of the school I might be attending, it said that they do give out Dean's scholarships for people in their second year who do well in the first. Whether I actually get one is far from clear, but the possibility, however remote, is there.

Maybe I am being really naive, but there's no reason to be a jerk about it. As pathetic is this might be to you, I'm trying to figure out what I should do with my life. Yes, that might involve saying some misguided things. If it's really too unbearable for you to read, go to another thread. Or just throw yourself in front of a bus.

Bottom line: few people pay sticker at t2s. And those who do ARE FUCKED. We're trying to help you. It's hard to see now, but you will be fucked in all but a few circumstances. And so no matter how they package it, take this advice to heart.

Maybe I misunderstood his tone, but that guy was talking to me like I'm a moron. There's no need for that.

[b.j.]

Don't do it unless you're so well connected that your school is really just a formality or there is literally no other path for you and you must be a lawyer no matter what, and this is the best school, by far, that you got into. Even then, you're making a terribly expensive decision. I'm going to a T2 and even though I like the school, I would not go without $$$$/other factors.

Dare I ask - did you get money at a T3?

The school that I might be attending is the worst out of all the ones I applied to. It was the last acceptable choice of what I would go to before I would start the process all over again. So, I didn't apply to any T3 schools.

[afterglow99]

There's absolutely no reason to go to any private NYC area school besides Columbia, NYU, or Fordham at sticker price. If you can't get into one of those, don't feed the fire of overpriced T2 and T3 tuition increases. If people wise up, maybe these places will finally be unable to fill their classes and the market will adjust prices back to a realistic level.

If you don't want to retake, consider your state's school. It probably won't give you a chance at biglaw, but with fewer loans, you could live comfortably at 50,000 a year (especially outside of metro NYC) and would have flexibility in terms of the type of legal career you want to pursue. If you must be in NYC, go to Rutgers Newark. The place isn't too hot, but they give everyone in state tuition (22k/year) and provide the same career prospects as 'Dozo/BLS/Seton Hall/St Johns for half the price. Newark sucks, but it's still something to think about.

I applied to both Newark and Camden. I received one of those awkward summer/evening/part time letters from Camden, and while I thought Newark wait listed me, after seeing or imagining/hallucinating something for a split second on the online status checker, I got a rejection letter in the mail.

I applied to Seton Hall, but PT, and have yet to hear from them. The same goes for Chicago-Kent, although they moved my in review status once or twice already. I was wait listed at Pittsburgh but never sent anything, so I doubt I will get in, and have yet to hear from Brooklyn or Cardozo, but I am not sure I'd bother going there unless I got some serious need-based aid.

I'm going to assume the NY school you're thinking of is Hofstra? While they've gone up in the rankings recently, their lay prestige still sucks and they do even worse at big law than the others of the bunch. Hofstra to T14 is probably more difficult too. Even the $7000 they throw at you after the first year if you're in the top 10% isnt enough to offset the ridiculous tuition.

[megaTTTron]

1. You assume that your employment prospects will depend on the state of the economy three years from now, rather than one year from now.

2. You think you'll probably get a biglaw job (though "not in the V10" - I guess you're just going to settle for the V20?).

3. In the alternative, you think you'll be able to transfer to a top 10 school.

4. You think that being in the top 10% isn't that hard.

5. You claim to be willing to eat ~$60,000 in first-year cost of attendance if you don't do well your first year.

6. You think that you'll get scholarship money for doing well your first year.

In short, you're an idiot six times over, in all the quintessential ways an aspiring law student could be an idiot.

1. I was under the impression that summer associate work depended on your standing after your second year.

2. No, not really. I'd say the odds are against working for Skadden or Cravath, in a number of ways. But as a sort of random starting point, rather than look around for random firms, I looked at the bottom of the list of the Vault 100 at what, to me at least, seemed like good firms where the competition to get jobs isn't nearly as severe as it is to get a job at a truly elite firm. That doesn't make it easy, of course, just relatively easier. Or is there no difference, with some firm that is ranked 90-100 being considered Big Law as well? If I have a misunderstanding of what constitutes Big Law, forgive me.

3. Well, if I do well, perhaps I can.

4. I'm sorry if I give this impression, but I don't think this is the case. I just don't think it's impossible.

5. On this point, you are correct. I thought it was clear why that's the case.

6. Well, yes, because on the site of the school I might be attending, it said that they do give out Dean's scholarships for people in their second year who do well in the first. Whether I actually get one is far from clear, but the possibility, however remote, is there.

Maybe I am being really naive, but there's no reason to be a jerk about it. As pathetic is this might be to you, I'm trying to figure out what I should do with my life. Yes, that might involve saying some misguided things. If it's really too unbearable for you to read, go to another thread. Or just throw yourself in front of a bus.

Bottom line: few people pay sticker at t2s. And those who do ARE FUCKED. We're trying to help you. It's hard to see now, but you will be fucked in all but a few circumstances. And so no matter how they package it, take this advice to heart.

Maybe I misunderstood his tone, but that guy was talking to me as I was a moron. There's no need for that.

Welcome to TLS. lol.

[reverendt]

OP....I'm certainly not trying to be a dick....but please be aware that you are being quite naive.
And understand that I am not one of these "t-14 or bust" and "biglaw or bust" people. I go to a T2 school and will probably not be working in biglaw.
That said:
1) "Biglaw" summer associate positions are acquired during the beginning of 2L, based on your 1L performance.
2) There is a 90% chance that you won't be in the top 10%. Everybody is smart. Everybody works their ass off. Some will be smarter than you, or simply better at writing these tests (which is a rather particular skill set). This is simply reality.
3) This means it is far more likely than not that you WON'T get biglaw or a chance to transfer to a T14.
4) This doesn't mean don't go to law school. It just means that anyone going to a T2 school (especially in an overcrowded legal market like NYC) should have reasonable expectations.
5) HOWEVER it also means try not to spend a fortune. I don't know where you're planning to attend, but you should really look to go to a state school w/in state tuition. Try to get some scholarship $$$.
Bear in mind (and a lot of people don't seem to grasp this) that a T2 school that dominates its market is a very different investment than a T2 school that shares a market with some of the highest ranked schools in the country.

[bk1]

1. You assume that your employment prospects will depend on the state of the economy three years from now, rather than one year from now.

2. You think you'll probably get a biglaw job (though "not in the V10" - I guess you're just going to settle for the V20?).

3. In the alternative, you think you'll be able to transfer to a top 10 school.

4. You think that being in the top 10% isn't that hard.

5. You claim to be willing to eat ~$60,000 in first-year cost of attendance if you don't do well your first year.

6. You think that you'll get scholarship money for doing well your first year.

In short, you're an idiot six times over, in all the quintessential ways an aspiring law student could be an idiot.

1. I was under the impression that summer associate work depended on your standing after your second year.

2. No, not really. I'd say the odds are against working for Skadden or Cravath, in a number of ways. But as a sort of random starting point, rather than look around for random firms, I looked at the bottom of the list of the Vault 100 at what, to me at least, seemed like good firms where the competition to get jobs isn't nearly as severe as it is to get a job at a truly elite firm. That doesn't make it easy, of course, just relatively easier. Or is there no difference, with some firm that is ranked 90-100 being considered Big Law as well? If I have a misunderstanding of what constitutes Big Law, forgive me.

3. Well, if I do well, perhaps I can.

4. I'm sorry if I give this impression, but I don't think this is the case. I just don't think it's impossible.

5. On this point, you are correct. I thought it was clear why that's the case.

6. Well, yes, because on the site of the school I might be attending, it said that they do give out Dean's scholarships for people in their second year who do well in the first. Whether I actually get one is far from clear, but the possibility, however remote, is there.

Maybe I am being really naive, but there's no reason to be a jerk about it. As pathetic is this might be to you, I'm trying to figure out what I should do with my life. Yes, that might involve saying some misguided things. If it's really too unbearable for you to read, go to another thread. Or just throw yourself in front of a bus.

1. Hiring for biglaw is basically done through OCI (where you get an offer for a summer position and then that transitions into an offer if things go as planned). OCI happens at the start of 2L (which if you are in the class of 2013 is in the latter half of 2011). Firms are going to be making their decision on how many offers to make at that time. Thus, biglaw will be making a decision in 1 year, not 3 years. Getting into biglaw outside of OCI is said to be nigh impossible outside of lateral transfers, clerkships, and the like (of which you probably would have gotten an offer if you are good enough to something like a decent clerkship).

2. biglaw is usually either the NLJ250 (based on firm size) or the V100 (based on firm prestige). Coming out of a low ranked school makes it hard to even crack the lower NLJ250 or V100 firms as data has shown that relatively few low ranked school students go to these firms. If it were easy to get into the smaller end of biglaw, these students would be piling into them but they are not. Especially in ITE where the lower end of biglaw is now being fought over by more T14's than pre-ITE.

3. The point is that this is so unlikely (realistically you will most likely be at median, your chances of being top 10% are around 10%) that you should not go in with the thought that it is an option.

4. It's obviously not impossible. But to get a job that makes a the $200k worth it, it is necessary. And because it is unlikely, it makes this a huge gamble with low chances of paying off.

5. As I noted earlier, if you are willing to gamble $60k on a most likely 1/10 shot at making a JD worth it because you really want to be a lawyer then I would say go for it. This of course takes the discipline to know when to cut your losses. Others will disagree with me, but if it is a dream to be a lawyer but you want to not completely screw yourself into debt with no prospects, this seems to be the best option.

6. Like other things mentioned, it is so unlikely that it should not be a factor in your consideration.

[b.j.]

OP....I'm certainly not trying to be a dick....but please be aware that you are being quite naive.
And understand that I am not one of these "t-14 or bust" and "biglaw or bust" people. I go to a T2 school and will probably not be working in biglaw.
That said:
1) "Biglaw" summer associate positions are acquired during the beginning of 2L, based on your 1L performance.
2) There is a 90% chance that you won't be in the top 10%. Everybody is smart. Everybody works their ass off. Some will be smarter than you, or simply better at writing these tests (which is a rather particular skill set). This is simply reality.
3) This means it is far more likely than not that you WON'T get biglaw or a chance to transfer to a T14.
4) This doesn't mean don't go to law school. It just means that anyone going to a T2 school (especially in an overcrowded legal market like NYC) should have reasonable expectations.
5) HOWEVER it also means try not to spend a fortune. I don't know where you're planning to attend, but you should really look to go to a state school w/in state tuition. Try to get some scholarship $$$.
Bear in mind (and a lot of people don't seem to grasp this) that a T2 school that dominates its market is a very different investment than a T2 school that shares a market with some of the highest ranked schools in the country.

I know all of this, which is why I am going back and forth and airing my thoughts here.

[bk1]

Maybe I missed it, but why isn't retaking the LSAT and reapplying an option?

[atlantalaw]

OP....I'm certainly not trying to be a dick....but please be aware that you are being quite naive.
And understand that I am not one of these "t-14 or bust" and "biglaw or bust" people. I go to a T2 school and will probably not be working in biglaw.
That said:
1) "Biglaw" summer associate positions are acquired during the beginning of 2L, based on your 1L performance.
2) There is a 90% chance that you won't be in the top 10%. Everybody is smart. Everybody works their ass off. Some will be smarter than you, or simply better at writing these tests (which is a rather particular skill set). This is simply reality.
3) This means it is far more likely than not that you WON'T get biglaw or a chance to transfer to a T14.
4) This doesn't mean don't go to law school. It just means that anyone going to a T2 school (especially in an overcrowded legal market like NYC) should have reasonable expectations.
5) HOWEVER it also means try not to spend a fortune. I don't know where you're planning to attend, but you should really look to go to a state school w/in state tuition. Try to get some scholarship $$$.
Bear in mind (and a lot of people don't seem to grasp this) that a T2 school that dominates its market is a very different investment than a T2 school that shares a market with some of the highest ranked schools in the country.

so, so true.

[romothesavior]

You asked for advice, and you're getting it. Maybe it is harsh, but given what you've said, I think posters are just trying to talk you down from the ledge.

I won't insult you or call you names, but I will be frank: Going to a T2 at sticker is a TERRIBLE decision, especially one in a flooded market like NYC. And while I don't think there are ever good reasons to pick a T2 at sticker, I think your reasons are especially atrocious.

[b.j.]

5. As I noted earlier, if you are willing to gamble $60k on a most likely 1/10 shot at making a JD worth it because you really want to be a lawyer then I would say go for it. This of course takes the discipline to know when to cut your losses. Others will disagree with me, but if it is a dream to be a lawyer but you want to not completely screw yourself into debt with no prospects, this seems to be the best option.[/quote]

I actually called one of my bosses a little while ago to ask about opportunities at my company's corporate offices. Who knows if there's anything there, but if there's anything there, and I somehow don't get a better aid offer from Cardozo or Chicago Kent, assuming I get in, I'd probably head for the West Coast.

[b.j.]

You asked for advice, and you're getting it. Maybe it is harsh, but given what you've said, I think posters are just trying to talk you down from the ledge.

I won't insult you or call you names, but I will be frank: Going to a T2 at sticker is a TERRIBLE decision, especially one in a flooded market like NYC. And while I don't think there are ever good reasons to pick a T2 at sticker, I think your reasons are especially atrocious.

You're not insulting me, and I know I am getting the advice I asked for. I don't have a problem with anyone being honest as long as they aren't nasty. Only one person was.

[b.j.]

Maybe I missed it, but why isn't retaking the LSAT and reapplying an option?

It is an option, just one that I'd rather avoid. I know why it's a good one. I just hate that fucking test.

[bk1]

Maybe I missed it, but why isn't retaking the LSAT and reapplying an option?

It is an option, just one that I'd rather avoid. I know why it's a good one. I just hate that fucking test.

As much as you hate the test, if scoring significantly better is an option I think it is the best possible one.

[b.j.]

Maybe I missed it, but why isn't retaking the LSAT and reapplying an option?

It is an option, just one that I'd rather avoid. I know why it's a good one. I just hate that fucking test.

As much as you hate the test, if scoring significantly better is an option I think it is the best possible one.

Perhaps.

[romothesavior]

Let's put it this way bj... What if I offered you 120k to take a year off and study your ass off for the LSAT? Would you do it?

That's essentially what a significant score increase would mean. You could go to this same T2 school for full tuition with a big score increase, or you could have options way higher up in the rankings. Taking a year off makes by FAR the most sense from a financial standpoint.

[bk1]

+1 to romo.

Perhaps.

After taking a quick look at your previous posts, reapplying will also allow you to apply early in the cycle as opposed to the very end which will definitely help you as well.

[sluguy14]

Maybe I missed it, but why isn't retaking the LSAT and reapplying an option?

It is an option, just one that I'd rather avoid. I know why it's a good one. I just hate that fucking test.

As much as you hate the test, if scoring significantly better is an option I think it is the best possible one.

Perhaps.

I don't think there's any "perhaps" about it. Retake the LSAT. Get a better score. Reapply next year.

The current probability of horrible failure is just far too great to stomach. Maybe $200k (or even $60k) sounds manageable on paper (or however you'd like to rationalize it), but it becomes an entirely different story when you're faced with climbing that mountain and you don't have an effective means (read: a decent job) to do so.

If you're not willing to retake the test because you don't enjoy it/don't feel like it/have other things to do, then this is not the career path for you. In other words, if you can't get motivated to study for and redo a test that will dramatically alter the rest of your life, how will you gather the willpower to study for and do well on finals?

[miamiman]

TBF, while sticker at T2 is tragic, I personally know 2 people entering T4s in the fall (at sticker). That strikes me as apocalyptic.

[creamedcats]

+1 to romo.

Perhaps.

After taking a quick look at your previous posts, reapplying will also allow you to apply early in the cycle as opposed to the very end which will definitely help you as well.

Thread over, pretty much. Sorry your cycle didn't go as planned. Don't feel trapped.

[Kobe_Teeth]

Wait a year. Study study study.

October is waiting for you.