How come law school is more expensive than med school? Forum

[Great Satchmo]

Vet school can be harder to get into than Med school.

My ex-gf has been applying for vet schools. She has amazing grades, a solid GRE, and a lot of work experience at a vet's office...still struggling for an acceptance somewhere.

Also, unless you want to do industrial-type vet work (which many vets don't want to do), being the neighborhood vet is VERY financially difficult given the load of debt you have to take on.

[thekun]

its hilarious to consider how as a society we value pets more than we do on serving humans through a md. it is quite ridiculous on how graduates from even the carribean (who has substantially low standards) grow up to be md's. in general to go to med school costs significantly more to the school since they have to provide research facilities, specialization programs, etc. to their students to ultimately cultivate their success

in general ls's are cow banks where they take advantage of how students are willing to pay whether they have funds or not. i would categorize business schools in a similar way, where far too many to choose from that charge large funds but don't provide the ROI as expected.

[Aeon]

Medical schools are often subsidized by their parent university and receive ample grants from various sources. To my knowledge, this is rarely, if ever, the case with law schools. As to why law school tuition rates have risen so precipitously in recent years, I think that the supply-and-demand explanation referenced earlier in this thread is a reasonable one.

[Bert]

that's not necessarily true. owners almost always have to pay cash for animal care; vets don't have to worry about taking health insurance... they're much less likely to get screwed over by medicare, insurance companies, etc.

i took my 14 year old dog in for a check-up last week. half an hour and $225 later she had a few vaccinations, a blood test, and some eyedrops for her allergies. if i went in for the same check-up on myself i would pay $15 co-pay and my insurance would pick up the rest... do you think they're paying another $210 to my doctor? no way

I think they are paying your doctor and his staff well over $210, yes.

Nope. I actually just got a report from my insurance company on for my recent physical and annual shots. The amount billed by my doctor was around $300, and the amount paid to the doctor by my insurance was $127.50. My copay was $25. Right there, cranberry's vet made more than my doctor.

[Nena_a]

why does this thread remind me of lsat questions? everyone writes in lsat. can you stop? its giving me a headache. im supposed to be taking an lsat prep break.

[MTal]

can you stop?

Nope.

[Bert]

Maybe you are just still thinking in LSAT and we are writing normally? That would probably suck more though.

[lostjake]

Don't worry, its just a matter of time before the bottom falls out of the law school, and for that matter, education bubble. Its just like the housing mess, prices can't continue to go up like they are. If there was a way to short the US college system I'd bet my left nut.

[ScaredWorkedBored]

Med school is four years...

[ToTransferOrNot]

It's also a myth that all doctors make more than $100k. General pracs (both family--the ones who deal with kids--and 'medical'--the ones who only see adults) can cycle around the $80k-90k mark for a long time. And that's after they go through residency. Keep in mind, med school doesn't "end" in year 4, really. Residencies are low paying, and terribly brutal as far as hours go.

Also, the work doctors do is more valuable than the work lawyers do, so there's that.

[General Tso]

that's not necessarily true. owners almost always have to pay cash for animal care; vets don't have to worry about taking health insurance... they're much less likely to get screwed over by medicare, insurance companies, etc.

i took my 14 year old dog in for a check-up last week. half an hour and $225 later she had a few vaccinations, a blood test, and some eyedrops for her allergies. if i went in for the same check-up on myself i would pay $15 co-pay and my insurance would pick up the rest... do you think they're paying another $210 to my doctor? no way

I think they are paying your doctor and his staff well over $210, yes.

Nope. I actually just got a report from my insurance company on for my recent physical and annual shots. The amount billed by my doctor was around $300, and the amount paid to the doctor by my insurance was $127.50. My copay was $25. Right there, cranberry's vet made more than my doctor.

I was billed about $250 for a blood test a few months back. That was just the lab fee. I asked the clinic at my law school how much the same lab charges them directly for the blood test --- $16.00!!!

I dunno how much med schools charge in tuition, but U of Pacific's Dental School in San Francisco charges almost SEVENTY-FIVE THOUSAND per year tuition. If this is the direction we are heading, surely the student loan bubble will burst in the next 15-20 years.

[Confus3d]

The problem with doctors is that while they may be "guaranteed six figures", that is generally after about a decade of schooling (4 years college + 4 years med school + 3-9 years residency). Keep in mind, while med school is four years, doctors cannot practice medicine until they complete a residency. These generally pay in the $40-50k range, require 80 hrs/week and can last anywhere from 3-9 years. When doctors complete residency, they can expect to make anywhere between $120k-$500k depending on specialty (hint: most will make $150-$250k due to the competitiveness of high paying specialties). While the TTTTT of med schools still produce doctors, people at the bottom of the class don't end up as brain surgeons or dermatologists bringing down $500k/year; they end up in family practice making $120k.

Also, while you're guaranteed six figures, you cannot achieve the earning potential of other professions, such as law. Successful trial lawyers or big firm partners can earn millions, that kind of money is unheard of in medicine. The doctor out of residency making $150k will likely make that for his entire career, there is no "corporate ladder" or "partner track" that will increase his salary. The only thing docs can do to make more money is see more patients, and eventually there are only so many hours in the day.

[Lucidity]

The problem with doctors is that while they may be "guaranteed six figures", that is generally after about a decade of schooling (4 years college + 4 years med school + 3-9 years residency). Keep in mind, while med school is four years, doctors cannot practice medicine until they complete a residency. These generally pay in the $40-50k range, require 80 hrs/week and can last anywhere from 3-9 years. When doctors complete residency, they can expect to make anywhere between $120k-$500k depending on specialty (hint: most will make $150-$250k due to the competitiveness of high paying specialties). While the TTTTT of med schools still produce doctors, people at the bottom of the class don't end up as brain surgeons or dermatologists bringing down $500k/year; they end up in family practice making $120k.

Also, while you're guaranteed six figures, you cannot achieve the earning potential of other professions, such as law. Successful trial lawyers or big firm partners can earn millions, that kind of money is unheard of in medicine. The doctor out of residency making $150k will likely make that for his entire career, there is no "corporate ladder" or "partner track" that will increase his salary. The only thing docs can do to make more money is see more patients, and eventually there are only so many hours in the day.

The upside salary potential of being a lawyer is about the only thing that we have on the coveted medical professions. But realistically, making millions as a senior partner at some big shot law firm is to say the least, unlikely. Then when you bring in factors such as stability and job security, there really is no contest. Law is a profession that is very sensitive to the economic climate. In contrast, everything in the medical field is practically recession proof. People get sick just as much in bad times as they do in good times. In fact I'd wager the only thing that has a chance of damaging the medical professions at all is legislation. I'll be interested in watching how the health care bill affects doctor salaries.

[General Tso]

The problem with doctors is that while they may be "guaranteed six figures", that is generally after about a decade of schooling (4 years college + 4 years med school + 3-9 years residency). Keep in mind, while med school is four years, doctors cannot practice medicine until they complete a residency. These generally pay in the $40-50k range, require 80 hrs/week and can last anywhere from 3-9 years. When doctors complete residency, they can expect to make anywhere between $120k-$500k depending on specialty (hint: most will make $150-$250k due to the competitiveness of high paying specialties). While the TTTTT of med schools still produce doctors, people at the bottom of the class don't end up as brain surgeons or dermatologists bringing down $500k/year; they end up in family practice making $120k.

Also, while you're guaranteed six figures, you cannot achieve the earning potential of other professions, such as law. Successful trial lawyers or big firm partners can earn millions, that kind of money is unheard of in medicine. The doctor out of residency making $150k will likely make that for his entire career, there is no "corporate ladder" or "partner track" that will increase his salary. The only thing docs can do to make more money is see more patients, and eventually there are only so many hours in the day.

The upside salary potential of being a lawyer is about the only thing that we have on the coveted medical professions. But realistically, making millions as a senior partner at some big shot law firm is to say the least, unlikely. Then when you bring in factors such as stability and job security, there really is no contest. Law is a profession that is very sensitive to the economic climate. In contrast, everything in the medical field is practically recession proof. People get sick just as much in bad times as they do in good times. In fact I'd wager the only thing that has a chance of damaging the medical professions at all is legislation. I'll be interested in watching how the health care bill affects doctor salaries.

It's not like doctors are going to get their paychecks straight from the Dept of Treasury (as they do in the UK). I think doctor salaries need to come down, not as a result of government decreed "salary ceilings" but by increasing the number of doctors in the country. Did you know that only THREE new med schools (MD, not DO) have opened in the last THIRTY years?! How many new law schools have opened in that same time period?

[voice of reason]

that's not necessarily true. owners almost always have to pay cash for animal care; vets don't have to worry about taking health insurance... they're much less likely to get screwed over by medicare, insurance companies, etc.

i took my 14 year old dog in for a check-up last week. half an hour and $225 later she had a few vaccinations, a blood test, and some eyedrops for her allergies. if i went in for the same check-up on myself i would pay $15 co-pay and my insurance would pick up the rest... do you think they're paying another $210 to my doctor? no way

As a rule, veterinary care costs much less than human medical care. I had a surgery done on my dog for about $1,500. Considering that this procedure was based on pretty much the same techniques, training, and equipment as the equivalent human surgery -- which would have been cheap at $10,000 -- it was quite a bargain. The main difference is that if vets kill their patients there are no major financial consequences.

[Lucidity]

The problem with doctors is that while they may be "guaranteed six figures", that is generally after about a decade of schooling (4 years college + 4 years med school + 3-9 years residency). Keep in mind, while med school is four years, doctors cannot practice medicine until they complete a residency. These generally pay in the $40-50k range, require 80 hrs/week and can last anywhere from 3-9 years. When doctors complete residency, they can expect to make anywhere between $120k-$500k depending on specialty (hint: most will make $150-$250k due to the competitiveness of high paying specialties). While the TTTTT of med schools still produce doctors, people at the bottom of the class don't end up as brain surgeons or dermatologists bringing down $500k/year; they end up in family practice making $120k.

Also, while you're guaranteed six figures, you cannot achieve the earning potential of other professions, such as law. Successful trial lawyers or big firm partners can earn millions, that kind of money is unheard of in medicine. The doctor out of residency making $150k will likely make that for his entire career, there is no "corporate ladder" or "partner track" that will increase his salary. The only thing docs can do to make more money is see more patients, and eventually there are only so many hours in the day.

The upside salary potential of being a lawyer is about the only thing that we have on the coveted medical professions. But realistically, making millions as a senior partner at some big shot law firm is to say the least, unlikely. Then when you bring in factors such as stability and job security, there really is no contest. Law is a profession that is very sensitive to the economic climate. In contrast, everything in the medical field is practically recession proof. People get sick just as much in bad times as they do in good times. In fact I'd wager the only thing that has a chance of damaging the medical professions at all is legislation. I'll be interested in watching how the health care bill affects doctor salaries.

It's not like doctors are going to get their paychecks straight from the Dept of Treasury (as they do in the UK). I think doctor salaries need to come down, not as a result of government decreed "salary ceilings" but by increasing the number of doctors in the country. Did you know that only THREE new med schools (MD, not DO) have opened in the last THIRTY years?! How many new law schools have opened in that same time period?

I've always scratched my head about that. Why the hell do we still have a doctor shortage? You can graduate at the absolute bottom of your class and still make bank, given that you are determined enough to last through the process. The only thing i can come up with is that strict grade requirements and 4 years of gradschool and 3+ years of residency being paid 50k/year to be someones bitch is too laborious a chore for most people to stomach. But even this barrier seems to not be as formidable as it used to be. Anyone who can't hack it in the states can apply to med school in the Caribbean and finish the program in 2 instead of 4 years, and its totally transferable. This is admittedly my rough understanding of the process, feel free to correct me if anyone knows better.

[General Tso]

I've always scratched my head about that. Why the hell do we still have a doctor shortage? You can graduate at the absolute bottom of your class and still make bank, given that you are determined enough to last through the process. The only thing i can come up with is that strict grade requirements and 4 years of gradschool and 3+ years of residency being paid 50k/year to be someones bitch is too laborious a chore for most people to stomach. But even this barrier seems to not be as formidable as it used to be. Anyone who can't hack it in the states can apply to med school in the Caribbean and finish the program in 2 instead of 4 years, and its totally transferable. This is admittedly my rough understanding of the process, feel free to correct me if anyone knows better.

I am pretty sure the AMA imposes limits on the number of med students each school can graduate, and since they have the power of accreditation, they can also directly limit the number of new MD schools.

Apparently the government allows the AMA these broad powers but not the ABA (or any other education body). In the mid 90s Barry University successfully sued the ABA when they started trying to deny accreditation to new law schools.

[SaintClarence27]

I've always scratched my head about that. Why the hell do we still have a doctor shortage? You can graduate at the absolute bottom of your class and still make bank, given that you are determined enough to last through the process. The only thing i can come up with is that strict grade requirements and 4 years of gradschool and 3+ years of residency being paid 50k/year to be someones bitch is too laborious a chore for most people to stomach. But even this barrier seems to not be as formidable as it used to be. Anyone who can't hack it in the states can apply to med school in the Caribbean and finish the program in 2 instead of 4 years, and its totally transferable. This is admittedly my rough understanding of the process, feel free to correct me if anyone knows better.

I am pretty sure the AMA imposes limits on the number of med students each school can graduate, and since they have the power of accreditation, they can also directly limit the number of new MD schools.

Apparently the government allows the AMA these broad powers but not the ABA (or any other education body). In the mid 90s Barry University successfully sued the ABA when they started trying to deny accreditation to new law schools.

Maaaaan, FUCK Barry University.

[Grizz]

Don't worry, its just a matter of time before the bottom falls out of the law school, and for that matter, education bubble. Its just like the housing mess, prices can't continue to go up like they are. If there was a way to short the US college system I'd bet my left nut.

Agreed.

[ughOSU]

Don't worry, its just a matter of time before the bottom falls out of the law school, and for that matter, education bubble. Its just like the housing mess, prices can't continue to go up like they are. If there was a way to short the US college system I'd bet my left nut.

Agreed.

Right, a good education is going to lose value in the future...

for sarcasm

[Grizz]

Don't worry, its just a matter of time before the bottom falls out of the law school, and for that matter, education bubble. Its just like the housing mess, prices can't continue to go up like they are. If there was a way to short the US college system I'd bet my left nut.

Agreed.

Right, a good education is going to lose value in the future...

for sarcasm

The problem is, a lot of people's "good educations," especially law degrees and liberal arts degrees aren't really worth that much. Is a women's studies degree from a T-20 UG worth $160k? Almost assuredly not.

[ughOSU]

The problem is, a lot of people's "good educations," especially law degrees and liberal arts degrees aren't really worth that much. Is a women's studies degree from a T-20 UG worth $160k? Almost assuredly not.

I am well aware of this, but people are still going to pay out the ass for education. Priorities will hopefully re-focus to more sciency shit again, and that would be good. However, the bubble is not going to burst so long as the tools necessary to compete in the global marketplace continue to get more and more complex and need more and more education to understand. That's the part I disagreed with.

[Jericwithers]

Because lawyering is a unique skill that you must learn and practice while doctors are being easily replaced by WebMD.

[Eric475]

The problem is, a lot of people's "good educations," especially law degrees and liberal arts degrees aren't really worth that much. Is a women's studies degree from a T-20 UG worth $160k? Almost assuredly not.

I am well aware of this, but people are still going to pay out the ass for education. Priorities will hopefully re-focus to more sciency shit again, and that would be good. However, the bubble is not going to burst so long as the tools necessary to compete in the global marketplace continue to get more and more complex and need more and more education to understand. That's the part I disagreed with.

Yes, there will always be rich kids who have parents that can afford to send them to expensive schools, but they are not always going to be the best applicants. However, schools will be forced to lower tuition - or give out copious scholarhips - in order to get smart kids to attend. I believe some Ivy UGs like Harvard have picked up on this? I know if you're a certain level of poor you attend for free.

[UFMatt]

I've always scratched my head about that. Why the hell do we still have a doctor shortage? You can graduate at the absolute bottom of your class and still make bank, given that you are determined enough to last through the process. The only thing i can come up with is that strict grade requirements and 4 years of gradschool and 3+ years of residency being paid 50k/year to be someones bitch is too laborious a chore for most people to stomach. But even this barrier seems to not be as formidable as it used to be. Anyone who can't hack it in the states can apply to med school in the Caribbean and finish the program in 2 instead of 4 years, and its totally transferable. This is admittedly my rough understanding of the process, feel free to correct me if anyone knows better.

I am pretty sure the AMA imposes limits on the number of med students each school can graduate, and since they have the power of accreditation, they can also directly limit the number of new MD schools.

Apparently the government allows the AMA these broad powers but not the ABA (or any other education body). In the mid 90s Barry University successfully sued the ABA when they started trying to deny accreditation to new law schools.

This.

There are far more qualified pre-med students than there are spots for med school. It's ridiculously competitive and also serves to keep health care salaries sky-high. Hopefully something will be done to open up more med schools over the next 10-20 years.