Pre-med to pre-law? Forum

[NoJob]

I'm a long-time lurker but this is my first post here. I'm wondering about going to law school over medical school. I came into a 3rd tier college (full-ride was the only reason) pre-law, but switched to pre-med my sophomore year due to my parents' pressuring me. They are both doctors and are scared about the job market for lawyers. I'm in my second semester junior year and have registered for the MCAT in May. However, I'm having serious second-thoughts about pursuing medicine. My main reasons are that I don't really like blood, guts, etc. I have a 3.9 as a biochemistry major and managed A's in all my science classes.

I took a diagnostic LSAT and got a 163, missing only 2 in the logic games section. So I guess my main question concerns the job prospects for a lawyer and how you would recommend me to switch to the law admissions process. Most of my extracurriculars involve volunteering at a free clinic and hospital, in addition to serving on the exec board for the pre-med club. Any and all advice is welcome!

Score in the 30s on your MCAT, go to med school, and get a real job.

Approach this from a worst case scenario point of view. What is the worst MD job? Family medicine in the middle of nowhere. At least, you make decent bank.

What is the worst JD job? No job with the JD kiss of death for non legal employment. Or doc review which now asks for experience and 1st tier law school credentials. Also, those jobs are being sent to shitholes like Dayton or Saint Louis where the kids only make 18 an hour. Shit, nurses make more than that.

This is a no brainer. Go for the real job.

[NoJob]

But seriously, who the fuck actually wants to be a dentist?

Call me picky, but I'd rather by a doc review monkey, or be just about anything else, than work with teeth all day. The only reason I'd consider something like that is for financial reasons, but no point in doing it if you're going to be miserable.

Dentists make decent bank and have job security.

Doc review firms give no notice that the case is settling. No benefits. Pay is falling. Work being shipped to India. Also, some computer program may put the whole industry out of business.

The ADA gives a shit about its people. The ABA doesn't give a fuck about you.

[whymeohgodno]

D.O people might be fucked

[NoJob]

D.O people might be fucked

In family med, maybe.

My DO friends all went for specialties, and they do as well as MDs.

[ResolutePear]

D.O people might be fucked

In family med, maybe.

My DO friends all went for specialties, and they do as well as MDs.

I personally prefer a DO PCP.

They both know the same exact shit, but because DO is one of those "second chance" routes, they usually don't have a silver spoon stuck up their asses.

Okay, I had no basis for that. But I still said it.

Seriously - the only thing a DO might run into problems with is attempting to apply to those very prestigious residencies. But you'll never be out of work. The ADA and AMA are both very aware about the need to keep doctors and dentists in low supply thereby making it worthwhile to study.

Hell, even Physician Assistants and NP's were created to *attempt* to skew it. It barely made a dent on our aging population. And on that token, want job security? Go for geriatrics. The truly rich never die young.

[Wholigan]

D.O people might be fucked

In family med, maybe.

My DO friends all went for specialties, and they do as well as MDs.

I personally prefer a DO PCP.

They both know the same exact shit, but because DO is one of those "second chance" routes, they usually don't have a silver spoon stuck up their asses.

Okay, I had no basis for that. But I still said it.

Seriously - the only thing a DO might run into problems with is attempting to apply to those very prestigious residencies. But you'll never be out of work. The ADA and AMA are both very aware about the need to keep doctors and dentists in low supply thereby making it worthwhile to study. Hell, even Physician Assistants and NP's were created to *attempt* to skew it. It barely made a dent on our aging population. And on that token, want job security? Go for geriatrics. The truly rich never die young.

I love hearing this, and then reading in my new issue of ABA Student Lawyer that just arrived in the mail today that ABA officials “emphasize that the ABA can’t be responsible for either ensuring a thriving job market or keeping new law schools from opening their doors.”

[alexonfyre]

D.O people might be fucked

In family med, maybe.

My DO friends all went for specialties, and they do as well as MDs.

I personally prefer a DO PCP.

They both know the same exact shit, but because DO is one of those "second chance" routes, they usually don't have a silver spoon stuck up their asses.

Okay, I had no basis for that. But I still said it.

Seriously - the only thing a DO might run into problems with is attempting to apply to those very prestigious residencies. But you'll never be out of work. The ADA and AMA are both very aware about the need to keep doctors and dentists in low supply thereby making it worthwhile to study. Hell, even Physician Assistants and NP's were created to *attempt* to skew it. It barely made a dent on our aging population. And on that token, want job security? Go for geriatrics. The truly rich never die young.

I love hearing this, and then reading in my new issue of ABA Student Lawyer that just arrived in the mail today that ABA officials “emphasize that the ABA can’t be responsible for either ensuring a thriving job market or keeping new law schools from opening their doors.”

The ABA is full of idiots and detached retirees. All of the talent in the legal community is doing important substantive work, and not worrying about young lawyers or the state of the industry. They do manage quite a nice listserv, though.

[vamedic03]

D.O people might be fucked

In family med, maybe.

My DO friends all went for specialties, and they do as well as MDs.

Two notes:

(1) DO's have to do a DO transition year (i.e., DO specific intern year), and

(2) The more prestigious programs tend to look down on DO's.

E.g., I used to work with a lot of DO anesthesiology residents. Their program was middle tier for anesthesia and they would have had problems getting into a higher ranked program because of the DO.

[ResolutePear]

D.O people might be fucked

In family med, maybe.

My DO friends all went for specialties, and they do as well as MDs.

Two notes:

(1) DO's have to do a DO transition year (i.e., DO specific intern year), and

(2) The more prestigious programs tend to look down on DO's.

E.g., I used to work with a lot of DO anesthesiology residents. Their program was middle tier for anesthesia and they would have had problems getting into a higher ranked program because of the DO.

You know what you're getting into with a DO. Sure the residency won't be prestigious, but it's not like you're going to be without a job either.

EDIT: Family practice is in demand and doesn't pay bad, either. Not as bad as doc review, at least. lol

[whymeohgodno]

You guys make D.O sound too good. You have to live with that horrible D.O for the rest of your life. Everyone with an M.D treats you like a ballsack.

[suzige]

I'm a long-time lurker but this is my first post here. I'm wondering about going to law school over medical school. I came into a 3rd tier college (full-ride was the only reason) pre-law, but switched to pre-med my sophomore year due to my parents' pressuring me. They are both doctors and are scared about the job market for lawyers. I'm in my second semester junior year and have registered for the MCAT in May. However, I'm having serious second-thoughts about pursuing medicine. My main reasons are that I don't really like blood, guts, etc. I have a 3.9 as a biochemistry major and managed A's in all my science classes.

I took a diagnostic LSAT and got a 163, missing only 2 in the logic games section. So I guess my main question concerns the job prospects for a lawyer and how you would recommend me to switch to the law admissions process. Most of my extracurriculars involve volunteering at a free clinic and hospital, in addition to serving on the exec board for the pre-med club. Any and all advice is welcome!

Sorry, didn't read the whole thread.... Just the OP.

Maybe you need to take some time and really do some soul-searching. You're obviously gifted in the hard sciences (I have many friends who are in biochem who are happy to get by with low Bs and Cs bc the classes are so difficult). I don't think you should let the whole blood and guts thing turn you away. I have a friend in med school now who said you eventually just get used to it (he was brilliant in biochem in undergrad, too). There's few people out there who right off the bat love that aspect.

Do you have serious second thoughts for any other reasons?
I would urge you to just sleep on it for a while. Many people want to be doctors, but few have the drive to make it happen. So far, sounds like you're headed in the right direction.

If law's def. what you want to do, research the field. Simple things like sitting in to observe court over the course of a semester have changed people's minds. Shadow a lawyer if you can. From my own experiences, it seems that many who want to be lawyers don't actually know what its really like. (Not saying that's you specifically, just saying in general.) I know many who want to be lawyers but haven't stepped foot inside a courtroom ever just to observe. Not good, in my opinion. That'd be like wanting to go to med school without ever spending time in a hospital or clinic.

But, then again, the best doctors have a passion for their practice. Perhaps you can say its "a calling" to it... It's pretty easy to tell by their bedside manner who was meant to be a doctor and who maybe did so for reasons other than wanting to heal people, etc. A family member of mine has been in and out of the hospital for the last few months, so I've gotten pretty good at pegging 'em. If you don't have a passion to be a doc, then don't go for it.

The market for primary care doctors, nurses, phys. assistants, etc. (esp. in Chicago area where I'm at) is expected to boom with the different aspects of the Affordable Care Act kicking in now. Make sure you are REALLY sure. Just my thoughts on that....

[ResolutePear]

You guys make D.O sound too good. You have to live with that horrible D.O for the rest of your life. Everyone with an M.D treats you like a ballsack.

Last I checked, MD's don't bust into DO practices just to point fingers and laugh uncontrollably.

On the other hand,
It's like going to a T3 law school: Everybody above you will treat you like a ballsack.

BUT-

As a DO, you will be gainfully employed.

[predent/prelaw]

OP if you want medicine for money do dental. Here is why...
-Half practices are cash only(normally high end old people markets)
-No residency unless going for specialty which I will get to later.
-Much lower Insurance premiums
-You can Franchise= Millions$$$$$
-Again no bargaining with insurance fee schedule
-Very little blood(unless in a specialty)
-General Dentist make waaayyyyy more than GP and way way more than pediatricians. I don't care what other people say I was a premed before I was predent and have shadowed 200+ hours on each side. Every MD/DO I shadowed said if they had it to do over again they would do DDS/DMD one of theirs son's was going to dental school. Most salary comparisons you will find are for associate dentist not owners. Most dentist are not associates most doctors are/or in group practice so they are salaried.
-You will likely never work a friday ever.
-you will never have to do rounds at the hospital(except specialties)

If you want to make more money than Plastics could dream of get over blood issue(pass out the first time and you are set) do OMFS
you will have to do ether 4 or 6 year res after dental school but you will be golden!!!
-do implants all day
-give your own general no anesthesiologist needed(FU MDs)
-do a plastics fellowship and do more than plastics MDs could do (some even do breast implants)
-Redesign peoples faces
-replace peoples mouths with porcelain veineers
-Buy your self a Cirrus Sr22 to fly your team to mexico to do cleft palates for poor children
-Design the sleekest practice in your state and boast about it to all the General Dentist at conventions

You could also do Endo I hated this specialty but you can make maddddd $$$$$

Perio is really cool but you don't like blood so you could not really open up someones mouth tissues to look like a bloody taco

Also if you are a prestige whore you can still go to Harvard Dental

[Veyron]

^ Do what you are passionate about with the cravat that with a 163 you have to be ok being poor.

Alex-Trof wrote:
Since everyone is telling personal anecdotes...

I know a guy who is a neurosurgeon. He is 40. I often see him out on weekends popping bottles at the VIP. He drives a brand-new McLaren, own a condo here (Scottsdale) and a house in Laguna Beach. He tells girl that his net worth is 22 mil. Not sure if it is true but he is fairly loaded, can care less about his job, and half of the time is drunk out of his mind hitting on cocktail waitresses half of his age.



That's just sad.

Whats sad about that? Do you have any idea what you have to go thru to become a neuro-surgeon? Its about has hard as making an NFL team. They make about 600-700k a year of which about half goes to malpractice (so 300-350k net) and no one in their right mind (with the ability to actually become a neuro surgeon, not some whiny liberal liberal-arts major) would do it for less.

It basically entails (a) pwning the fuck out of pre-med undergrad (b) pwning the fuck out of the MCAT (c) pwning the fuck out of medschool and the placement test for residencies (d) doing a years of specialized training on top of med-school and residency and so making no/very little money until your mid thirties (e) running up the better part of a million dollars in debt.

They get paid like law firm partners and they fucking deserve it.

That being said, you don't make 22mil a doctor without some pretty savvy investments. Granted the very best neuro surgeons make 800k-1m but imma go with the dude was lying.

[Adobe]

My main reasons are that I don't really like blood, guts, etc.

I was once afraid of blood & guts too until I realized that there was something even scarier: spending your life in a cubicle.

[predent/prelaw]

^ Do what you are passionate about with the cravat that with a 163 you have to be ok being poor.

Ok so yea I guess its only fair that I should tell you why I now want to pursue law school instead dental.
#1 I am gay and dentistry is still a conservative field(obviously less so in liberal areas). Though I did date a Dentist I was shadowing but he was ultra closeted.
#2 You will work with the people you employee at your practice (2-8 people normally) and that's it besides maybe stopping by the local lab to chat or industry conventions. So you better like the people you will probably be working with for likely decades. You will of course see new faces each and every day but you will never really get to know them because when your hands are in their mouth they can't talk. Lawyers on the other hand from poop law to big law will speak with lots of people(at least I hope lol)
#3 LOL I am Left handed so I would have to retrain DAIIs and normally buy all new equipment(not used) or it would be hard for me to purchase a practice from a retiring dentist unless I redid it and in dental school this would put me at a disadvantage.

[Veyron]

^ Do what you are passionate about with the cravat that with a 163 you have to be ok being poor.

Ok so yea I guess its only fair that I should tell you why I now want to pursue law school instead dental.
#1 I am gay and dentistry is still a conservative field(obviously less so in liberal areas). Though I did date a Dentist I was shadowing but he was ultra closeted.
#2 You will work with the people you employee at your practice (2-8 people normally) and that's it besides maybe stopping by the local lab to chat or industry conventions. So you better like the people you will probably be working with for likely decades. You will of course see new faces each and every day but you will never really get to know them because when your hands are in their mouth they can't talk. Lawyers on the other hand from poop law to big law will speak with lots of people(at least I hope lol)
#3 LOL I am Left handed so I would have to retrain DAIIs and normally buy all new equipment(not used) or it would be hard for me to purchase a practice from a retiring dentist unless I redid it and in dental school this would put me at a disadvantage.

Biglawyers never get to see many clients or do much besides sit in front of their computer unless they survive incredible attrition to become a midlevel.

With a 163 you won't get into a school that will let you be a biglawyer without being at the tip-top of your class (unlike in the medical field, everyone in law cares where you went to school). You won't do that if you couldn't get above 163, LSAT skills are very similar to exam skills

You will probably make 40-50k if you are one of the 50% of law graduates that gets a legal job. You will owe 20k a year on your loans.

NOW, does that sound better than dentistry?


As far as the culture of law v.s. dentistry, that I can't speak to.

[predent/prelaw]

^ Do what you are passionate about with the cravat that with a 163 you have to be ok being poor.

Ok so yea I guess its only fair that I should tell you why I now want to pursue law school instead dental.
#1 I am gay and dentistry is still a conservative field(obviously less so in liberal areas). Though I did date a Dentist I was shadowing but he was ultra closeted.
#2 You will work with the people you employee at your practice (2-8 people normally) and that's it besides maybe stopping by the local lab to chat or industry conventions. So you better like the people you will probably be working with for likely decades. You will of course see new faces each and every day but you will never really get to know them because when your hands are in their mouth they can't talk. Lawyers on the other hand from poop law to big law will speak with lots of people(at least I hope lol)
#3 LOL I am Left handed so I would have to retrain DAIIs and normally buy all new equipment(not used) or it would be hard for me to purchase a practice from a retiring dentist unless I redid it and in dental school this would put me at a disadvantage.

Biglawyers never get to see many clients or do much besides sit in front of their computer unless they survive incredible attrition to become a midlevel.

With a 163 you won't get into a school that will let you be a biglawyer without being at the tip-top of your class (unlike in the medical field, everyone in law cares where you went to school). You won't do that if you couldn't get above 163, LSAT skills are very similar to exam skills

You will probably make 40-50k if you are one of the 50% of law graduates that gets a legal job. You will owe 20k a year on your loans.

NOW, does that sound better than dentistry?


As far as the culture of law v.s. dentistry, that I can't speak to.

I am not the OP and I have yet to write my LSAT(crossing my fingers I do well). Also you will owe at the very least 20k a year for dental normally tuition = 50k+- x 4 years

[Veyron]

^ Do what you are passionate about with the cravat that with a 163 you have to be ok being poor.

Ok so yea I guess its only fair that I should tell you why I now want to pursue law school instead dental.
#1 I am gay and dentistry is still a conservative field(obviously less so in liberal areas). Though I did date a Dentist I was shadowing but he was ultra closeted.
#2 You will work with the people you employee at your practice (2-8 people normally) and that's it besides maybe stopping by the local lab to chat or industry conventions. So you better like the people you will probably be working with for likely decades. You will of course see new faces each and every day but you will never really get to know them because when your hands are in their mouth they can't talk. Lawyers on the other hand from poop law to big law will speak with lots of people(at least I hope lol)
#3 LOL I am Left handed so I would have to retrain DAIIs and normally buy all new equipment(not used) or it would be hard for me to purchase a practice from a retiring dentist unless I redid it and in dental school this would put me at a disadvantage.

Biglawyers never get to see many clients or do much besides sit in front of their computer unless they survive incredible attrition to become a midlevel.

With a 163 you won't get into a school that will let you be a biglawyer without being at the tip-top of your class (unlike in the medical field, everyone in law cares where you went to school). You won't do that if you couldn't get above 163, LSAT skills are very similar to exam skills

You will probably make 40-50k if you are one of the 50% of law graduates that gets a legal job. You will owe 20k a year on your loans.

NOW, does that sound better than dentistry?


As far as the culture of law v.s. dentistry, that I can't speak to.

I am not the OP and I have yet to write my LSAT(crossing my fingers I do well). Also you will owe at the very least 20k a year for dental normally tuition = 50k+- x 4 years

Sure but are half of all dentists unable to get a job in dentistry? Are 3/4 of all dentists unable to get a job that will not allow them to service those loans and live comfortably?

[ResolutePear]

Ok so yea I guess its only fair that I should tell you why I now want to pursue law school instead dental.
#1 I am gay and dentistry is still a conservative field(obviously less so in liberal areas). Though I did date a Dentist I was shadowing but he was ultra closeted.
#2 You will work with the people you employee at your practice (2-8 people normally) and that's it besides maybe stopping by the local lab to chat or industry conventions. So you better like the people you will probably be working with for likely decades. You will of course see new faces each and every day but you will never really get to know them because when your hands are in their mouth they can't talk. Lawyers on the other hand from poop law to big law will speak with lots of people(at least I hope lol)
#3 LOL I am Left handed so I would have to retrain DAIIs and normally buy all new equipment(not used) or it would be hard for me to purchase a practice from a retiring dentist unless I redid it and in dental school this would put me at a disadvantage.

Biglawyers never get to see many clients or do much besides sit in front of their computer unless they survive incredible attrition to become a midlevel.

With a 163 you won't get into a school that will let you be a biglawyer without being at the tip-top of your class (unlike in the medical field, everyone in law cares where you went to school). You won't do that if you couldn't get above 163, LSAT skills are very similar to exam skills

You will probably make 40-50k if you are one of the 50% of law graduates that gets a legal job. You will owe 20k a year on your loans.

NOW, does that sound better than dentistry?


As far as the culture of law v.s. dentistry, that I can't speak to.

I am not the OP and I have yet to write my LSAT(crossing my fingers I do well). Also you will owe at the very least 20k a year for dental normally tuition = 50k+- x 4 years

Sure but are half of all dentists unable to get a job in dentistry? Are 3/4 of all dentists unable to get a job that will not allow them to service those loans and live comfortably?

There is a much, MUCH higher financial aid cap on healthcare vs. law. Therefore, you won't get interest pwned as much, if at all, as a dentist. And, you can setup an office with an actual service required.

With a lawyer, the need for one is external. Whereas, the need for a dentist is internal.

In other words, the lack of one will still let you sleep while the lack of the other will not. That and the ADA's careful measure on supply and demand lets a dentist walk into a bank, ask for a 100k loan to establish their practice, and it's smooth sailing for there.

Of course, if you ignore the fact that dentists are the #1 demographic involved in suicides.

[predent/prelaw]

Sure but are half of all dentists unable to get a job in dentistry? Are 3/4 of all dentists unable to get a job that will not allow them to service those loans and live comfortably?

Nope most get hired or are foolish enough to start out of school on their own. I understand what you are saying. I am going to law school because I would rather have tried and failed at life then settling for something less than my greatest dreams.

[predent/prelaw]

Of course, if you ignore the fact that dentists are the #1 demographic involved in suicides.

There is absolutely 0 scientific evidence behind this urban legend

[ResolutePear]

Sure but are half of all dentists unable to get a job in dentistry? Are 3/4 of all dentists unable to get a job that will not allow them to service those loans and live comfortably?

Nope most get hired or are foolish enough to start out of school on their own. I understand what you are saying. I am going to law school because I would rather have tried and failed at life then settling for something less than my greatest dreams.

Define hired.

[ResolutePear]

Of course, if you ignore the fact that dentists are the #1 demographic involved in suicides.

There is absolutely 0 scientific evidence behind this urban legend

Well, when dentists themselves believe it - that kinda downplays the need for "scientific evidence." At any rate, out of all the other stuff that could have been commented on in the post...

[predent/prelaw]

Sure but are half of all dentists unable to get a job in dentistry? Are 3/4 of all dentists unable to get a job that will not allow them to service those loans and live comfortably?

Nope most get hired or are foolish enough to start out of school on their own. I understand what you are saying. I am going to law school because I would rather have tried and failed at life then settling for something less than my greatest dreams.

Define hired.

Most will work salaried for a dentist for a year before becoming partner in the practice. Some scum will work for corporate factories like Dentalworks. Some will find a soon to be retiring dentist who want to sell their practices who they will work under for 6 months to a few years. etc etc