Is Law School the new "College?" Forum

[Ambitious]

I think part of the problem is that we are "over-educating" as a society and this has decreased the quality of education.

College is now seen by many as nearly mandatory step-- this means that people with no real desire to seriously pursue Academic study are now forced into doing it to remain competitive with the market. This has lowered the quality of education by compelling those without sincere desire to attend college, to attend for the wrong reasons ("getting a job"). Worse, those who graduate and are unable to find a job tend to go for masters or law school or "any graduate degree" thinking that it will make them more desirable.

Many law schools and graduate programs are simply expensive adult daycare for twenty-somethings who have yet to actually grow up. Without a real direction in life or without valuable experience, they now are "employed" for a period of time. This works to the benefit of several groups of society.

1) Banks. Now more people begin their lives in debt than ever before. As it becomes more and more socially required to attend college, banks get more and more... slaves. Essentially, indebted servants who will have to pay the banks back regardless of how their life turns out. And since the banks make these purchases at the beginning of someone's life, they have the entirety of that persons life to collect from them. Every labor-hour that goes towards payments of loan interest is essentially an hour of slavery. This reality is very carefully masked and we have come to accept many forms of slavery without acknowledging it as such.

2) Politicians. When there are no real jobs around it makes sense to remove whoever you can from counting as unemployed. So, the more we trumpet "Education" as the solution, the more it serves to cover up the problem and pass it on to someone else.

3) Profiteers. Those who establish these institutions, those that are employed there, and those who provide financing with these organizations. These institutions seek to mislead others about the real value of attending.

The graduates of these institutions face a harsh reality-- they have spent 1 to 3 years of their lives without building real value in their marketable skills and worse, they have been mislead to believe that they should command more value than they actually do, as a part of this, they have acquired extreme debts and begin life in the Red.

After immersion in the very intellectual study of law, they find that their opportunities are "beneath them". This sets up disappointment, lack of self worth, and feelings of powerlessness and resentment. Many of these people have been guided through their whole lives as Objects. They have gone through a mandatory 18 years of education, applied for four more (where the applicant reviewers have financial incentive to accept), applied for three more (where the applicant reviewers have financial incentive to accept), and then things change when they apply for a real job (where the applicant reviewers want Value for Money).

Our society is not made better by More Education. Our society is made better by excellence, by people doing what they have an aptitude and passion for-- and our system of education works against this goal.

We send teenagers off to four-year institutions where they learn things that do not apply to their real world jobs. Degrees in English, Politics, Philosophy, etc, which, while great knowledge to have as part of ones life, does not contribute to Sales, Marketing, Finance, Management, Teamwork, Process/Project Work, etc.

Ironically, this has caused jobs to require "a four year degree" even though it is entirely unrelated to the responsibilities of the positions. There are several management jobs at Department stores that now require a four year degree. Before, these jobs would have allowed the middle and lower class to get in to decent paying jobs without debt. Now they have to commit to debt for these sorts of things.

And the quality of education at college has become more of an extension of high school as a result, rather than a place of higher learning. Many college classes are now homework-based, busy-work type nonsense rather than serious intellectual pursuit. The General Education requirement that has been put in place at universities is a chief example of this sort of Lowest Common Denominator extension.

This has entered Law Schools as well, by the breed of schools that will admit basically anyone. Except unlike the Four Year Universities, they make their applicants LESS MARKETABLE rather than more. Three years spent at some of these schools can even make you unemployable-- it is better to leave it off the resume and explain a three year gap. So they leave, three years and $180,000 of debt later, with nothing to show for their time. In reality, with their options, $180,000 of debt is actually more of a 20 year sentence to slavery.


There are two senses where Law School has become the new college.

The first is in schools that can place students in careers. These places have become a great place for higher learning and career opportunities.

The second is in schools that cannot. These places have become a debt-trap that students feel obligated to attend.

[williemayshayes]

I think part of the problem is that we are "over-educating" as a society and this has decreased the quality of education.

College is now seen by many as nearly mandatory step-- this means that people with no real desire to seriously pursue Academic study are now forced into doing it to remain competitive with the market. This has lowered the quality of education by compelling those without sincere desire to attend college, to attend for the wrong reasons ("getting a job"). Worse, those who graduate and are unable to find a job tend to go for Masters or Law School or "any graduate degree" thinking that it will make them more desirable.

Many law schools and graduate programs are simply expensive adult daycare for twenty-somethings who have yet to actually grow up. Without a real direction in life or without valuable experience, they now are "employed" for a period of time. This works to the benefit of several groups of society.

1) Banks. Now more people begin their lives in debt than ever before. As it becomes more and more socially required to attend college, banks get more and more... slaves. Essentially, indebted servants who will have to pay the banks back regardless of how their life turns out. And since the banks make these purchases at the beginning of someone's life, they have the entirety of that persons life to collect from them. Every labor-hour that goes towards payments of loan interest is essentially an hour of slavery. This reality is very carefully masked and we have come to accept many forms of slavery without acknowledging it as such.

2) Politicians. When there are no real jobs around it makes sense to remove whoever you can from counting as unemployed. So, the more we trumpet "Education" as the solution, the more it serves to cover up the problem and pass it on to someone else.

3) Profiteers. Those who establish these institutions, those that are employed there, and those who provide financing with these organizations. These institutions seek to mislead others about the real value of attending.

The graduates of these institutions face a harsh reality-- they have spent 1 to 3 years of their lives without building real value in their marketable skills and worse, they have been mislead to believe that they should command more value than they actually do, as a part of this, they have acquired extreme debts and begin life in the Red.

After immersion in the very intellectual study of law, they find that their opportunities are "beneath them". This sets up disappointment, lack of self worth, and feelings of powerlessness and resentment. Many of these people have been guided through their whole lives as Objects. They have gone through a mandatory 18 years of education, applied for four more (where the applicant reviewers have financial incentive to accept), applied for three more (where the applicant reviewers have financial incentive to accept), and then things change when they apply for a real job (where the applicant reviewers want Value for Money).

Our society is not made better by More Education. Our society is made better by excellence, by people doing what they have an aptitude and passion for-- and our system of education works against this goal.

We send teenagers off to four-year institutions where they learn things that do not apply to their real world jobs. Degrees in English, Politics, Philosophy, etc, which, while great knowledge to have as part of ones life, does not contribute to Sales, Marketing, Finance, Management, Teamwork, Process/Project Work, etc.

Ironically, this has caused jobs to require "a four year degree" even though it is entirely unrelated to the responsibilities of the positions. There are several management jobs at Department stores that now require a four year degree. Before, these jobs would have allowed the middle and lower class to get in to decent paying jobs without debt. Now they have to commit to debt for these sorts of things.

And the quality of education at college has become more of an extension of high school as a result, rather than a place of higher learning. Many college classes are now homework-based, busy-work type nonsense rather than serious intellectual pursuit. The General Education requirement that has been put in place at universities is a chief example of this sort of Lowest Common Denominator extension.

This has entered Law Schools as well, by the breed of schools that will admit basically anyone. Except unlike the Four Year Universities, they make their applicants LESS MARKETABLE rather than more. Three years spent at some of these schools can even make you unemployable-- it is better to leave it off the resume and explain a three year gap. So they leave, three years and $180,000 of debt later, with nothing to show for their time. In reality, with their options, $180,000 of debt is actually more of a 20 year sentence to slavery.


There are two senses where Law School has become the new college.

The first is in schools that can place students in careers. These places have become a great place for higher learning and career opportunities.

The second is in schools that cannot. These places have become a debt-trap that students feel obligated to attend.

This will cease to be a problem when the current and subsequent generations free themselves from the "dog and pony show" mentality that began with the late baby boomers and is at its peak with today's generation...with respect to growing up and establishing oneself in society. In a nutshell, individual resourcefulness has given way to poisonous entitlement. We have this absurd sense that stuff is "supposed" to be a certain way, and if it doesn't...it's the fault of everyone but ourselves. Whatever happened to the mentality of "playing the cards you're dealt" that made the American citizenry the most resourceful, resilient, and positively spontaneous people the World has ever known? There used to be a time when young people with little to no responsibilities in the world did stuff just to do it, and see what happens. Now...it's "i have to go to college, grad school...and if I do, I'll make good money and everything will be swell". Case in point is those people who blame "the economy" or their law school or whatever else for coming up on the short end of their "BigLaw or bust" mentality which borders on the most absurd sense of entitlement I have ever seen in my life. Well...you made a decision to do this. Now live with the consequences...however they turned out.

It's all a dog and pony show...if more people worried about blazing their own trail and figuring out stuff for themselves rather than letting big wigs tell them what's good for them, most of this wouldn't be a problem. And those of us 0L's who are genuinely entering this with clear eyes and full hearts, rather than looking for "adult day care" or worse, a "ticket to the upper middle class", would have a far wider range of opportunities available to us at a much more affordable cost.

[GettingReady2010]

I think part of the problem is that we are "over-educating" as a society and this has decreased the quality of education.

College is now seen by many as nearly mandatory step-- this means that people with no real desire to seriously pursue Academic study are now forced into doing it to remain competitive with the market. This has lowered the quality of education by compelling those without sincere desire to attend college, to attend for the wrong reasons ("getting a job"). Worse, those who graduate and are unable to find a job tend to go for Masters or Law School or "any graduate degree" thinking that it will make them more desirable.

Many law schools and graduate programs are simply expensive adult daycare for twenty-somethings who have yet to actually grow up. Without a real direction in life or without valuable experience, they now are "employed" for a period of time. This works to the benefit of several groups of society.

1) Banks. Now more people begin their lives in debt than ever before. As it becomes more and more socially required to attend college, banks get more and more... slaves. Essentially, indebted servants who will have to pay the banks back regardless of how their life turns out. And since the banks make these purchases at the beginning of someone's life, they have the entirety of that persons life to collect from them. Every labor-hour that goes towards payments of loan interest is essentially an hour of slavery. This reality is very carefully masked and we have come to accept many forms of slavery without acknowledging it as such.

2) Politicians. When there are no real jobs around it makes sense to remove whoever you can from counting as unemployed. So, the more we trumpet "Education" as the solution, the more it serves to cover up the problem and pass it on to someone else.

3) Profiteers. Those who establish these institutions, those that are employed there, and those who provide financing with these organizations. These institutions seek to mislead others about the real value of attending.

The graduates of these institutions face a harsh reality-- they have spent 1 to 3 years of their lives without building real value in their marketable skills and worse, they have been mislead to believe that they should command more value than they actually do, as a part of this, they have acquired extreme debts and begin life in the Red.

After immersion in the very intellectual study of law, they find that their opportunities are "beneath them". This sets up disappointment, lack of self worth, and feelings of powerlessness and resentment. Many of these people have been guided through their whole lives as Objects. They have gone through a mandatory 18 years of education, applied for four more (where the applicant reviewers have financial incentive to accept), applied for three more (where the applicant reviewers have financial incentive to accept), and then things change when they apply for a real job (where the applicant reviewers want Value for Money).

Our society is not made better by More Education. Our society is made better by excellence, by people doing what they have an aptitude and passion for-- and our system of education works against this goal.

We send teenagers off to four-year institutions where they learn things that do not apply to their real world jobs. Degrees in English, Politics, Philosophy, etc, which, while great knowledge to have as part of ones life, does not contribute to Sales, Marketing, Finance, Management, Teamwork, Process/Project Work, etc.

Ironically, this has caused jobs to require "a four year degree" even though it is entirely unrelated to the responsibilities of the positions. There are several management jobs at Department stores that now require a four year degree. Before, these jobs would have allowed the middle and lower class to get in to decent paying jobs without debt. Now they have to commit to debt for these sorts of things.

And the quality of education at college has become more of an extension of high school as a result, rather than a place of higher learning. Many college classes are now homework-based, busy-work type nonsense rather than serious intellectual pursuit. The General Education requirement that has been put in place at universities is a chief example of this sort of Lowest Common Denominator extension.

This has entered Law Schools as well, by the breed of schools that will admit basically anyone. Except unlike the Four Year Universities, they make their applicants LESS MARKETABLE rather than more. Three years spent at some of these schools can even make you unemployable-- it is better to leave it off the resume and explain a three year gap. So they leave, three years and $180,000 of debt later, with nothing to show for their time. In reality, with their options, $180,000 of debt is actually more of a 20 year sentence to slavery.


There are two senses where Law School has become the new college.

The first is in schools that can place students in careers. These places have become a great place for higher learning and career opportunities.

The second is in schools that cannot. These places have become a debt-trap that students feel obligated to attend.

This will cease to be a problem when the current and subsequent generations free themselves from the "dog and pony show" mentality that began with the late baby boomers and is at its peak with today's generation...with respect to growing up and establishing oneself in society. In a nutshell, individual resourcefulness has given way to poisonous entitlement. We have this absurd sense that stuff is "supposed" to be a certain way, and if it doesn't...it's the fault of everyone but ourselves. Whatever happened to the mentality of "playing the cards you're dealt" that made the American citizenry the most resourceful, resilient, and positively spontaneous people the World has ever known? There used to be a time when young people with little to no responsibilities in the world did stuff just to do it, and see what happens. Now...it's "i have to go to college, grad school...and if I do, I'll make good money and everything will be swell". Case in point is those people who blame "the economy" or their law school or whatever else for coming up on the short end of their "BigLaw or bust" mentality which borders on the most absurd sense of entitlement I have ever seen in my life. Well...you made a decision to do this. Now live with the consequences...however they turned out.

It's all a dog and pony show...if more people worried about blazing their own trail and figuring out stuff for themselves rather than letting big wigs tell them what's good for them, most of this wouldn't be a problem. And those of us 0L's who are genuinely entering this with clear eyes and full hearts, rather than looking for "adult day care" or worse, a "ticket to the upper middle class", would have a far wider range of opportunities available to us at a much more affordable cost.

Well, this is the credited response. The only problem it that me, you, and maybe 20% of people in our demographic think this way. Almost everyone else seems to think that deserve something for nothing.

[Oban]

CA needs to change how they do their budget i mean damn

As a(soon fleeing) resident of CA, i agree. But the problems are systemic. They began 40 years ago with Reagan and the Tax Revolt(see prop 13), and they've just gotten worse over the years as the state's population grew, taxes stayed at 1970s levels, and people demanded more services. Then the Republicans in Sacramento signed a pledge to NEVER RAISE TAXES. The democrats on the other side have vowed to never cut services. Thus over the last 30 years, the state has been living in a bubble economy, a never never land that was not sustainable. Prop 13, encouraged rampant real estate speculation, driving up prices, forcing poorer people into the boonies. Meanwhile the state had to rely on sales tax to pay for everythng. So the poorer people, prices out of housing in the boonies, they just got poorer due to low access to middle and upper class jobs in cities. They purchase less and less, tax rolls fall. KAboom!

The problem is huge, and it will take decades to fix. Currently taxes cannot be raised without a super majority. No one likes higher taxes, but if the state is going to recover prop 13 will have to be repealed, some(non property) taxes will have to be raised, and some services(and high salary patronage jobs) reduced in scope.

[Oban]

Or skip law school and possibly even college altogether and become a city manager in a corrupt CA town. You could make up to $787K/yr if you aim high, or "settle" for over $100K in a more pedestrian aforementioned public position.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sca ... 8559&tsp=1

from the article: "Rizzo [a CA city manager] is entitled to a state pension of $650,000 a year for life."

Good times.

Bell is only the tip of the iceburg. Vernon(just south east of downtown LA) and Industry, CA, are both seats of corruption. The former mayor of Vernon was recently indicted on federal charges of election fraud and embezzlement. Vernon is a modern political fiefdom.

[waitlisted1]

I think part of the problem is that we are "over-educating" as a society and this has decreased the quality of education.

College is now seen by many as nearly mandatory step-- this means that people[...]

@Ambitious, thanks for that insightful response. you were really able to put that hunch I had into words.
That is the very cynical aspect of the educational system, but has many merits, along with @williemayshays who made some good points about the feeling of entitlement felt by many members Generation Y.

On the other hand, mandatory education does help the dumb of the dumbest get smarter, but the truth is that people "need to want" to learn/better themselves on their own.

But yea, this law school thing is a real pain in my ass because I'd like to be able to practice law, but I don't want to go to law school for the "attached strings" as @ambitious so articulately spelled out.

[MC Southstar]

WHO CARES?! I'm going to law school to slay bitches, get drunk off my ass, and not go to work, WOO!

[drdolittle]

WHO CARES?! I'm going to law school to slay bitches, get drunk off my ass, and not go to work, WOO!

Thank you, sir.

[drdolittle]

CA needs to change how they do their budget i mean damn

As a(soon fleeing) resident of CA, i agree. But the problems are systemic. They began 40 years ago with Reagan and the Tax Revolt(see prop 13), and they've just gotten worse over the years as the state's population grew, taxes stayed at 1970s levels, and people demanded more services. Then the Republicans in Sacramento signed a pledge to NEVER RAISE TAXES. The democrats on the other side have vowed to never cut services. Thus over the last 30 years, the state has been living in a bubble economy, a never never land that was not sustainable. Prop 13, encouraged rampant real estate speculation, driving up prices, forcing poorer people into the boonies. Meanwhile the state had to rely on sales tax to pay for everythng. So the poorer people, prices out of housing in the boonies, they just got poorer due to low access to middle and upper class jobs in cities. They purchase less and less, tax rolls fall. KAboom!

The problem is huge, and it will take decades to fix. Currently taxes cannot be raised without a super majority. No one likes higher taxes, but if the state is going to recover prop 13 will have to be repealed, some(non property) taxes will have to be raised, and some services(and high salary patronage jobs) reduced in scope.

The wildcard for CA are natural disasters, particularly earthquakes.

As mentioned, a key problem in CA is that property prices have gotten severely out of control to reach unsustainable levels in the current economy (thanks to realtors, banks, & demand). Normally the market should correct this, but in this economy we (public & gov) can't seem to stomach the losses needed to readjust the system. But an earthquake will do that for us. Loma Prieta did it in '89 for SF-BA. From what I've been told, it changed people's perception even in CA to where they were looking to move out of the state. Almost like a 9/11 effect, with maybe even greater long-term impact, though clearly not long enough. I'm afraid something like that is what it'll take to set the CA economy straight, because the politicians & public don't seem to be on the right track...

[waitlisted1]

WHO CARES?! I'm going to law school to slay bitches, get drunk off my ass, and not go to work, WOO!

Thank you, sir.

~aka~yes, you guys see law school as the new college.

[JustBelieve]

OP: You wouldn't believe how many people in my UG were just going to law school JUST BECAUSE it was something to do and it looked prestigious. Don't get me wrong, the prestige is alluring, however, this profession is still a calling. Its a disgrace for people just to go to law school because they need something to do or they care about the title.

If people are not going for the reasons of helping their clients, fighting for justice, etc., then they are truly doing a disservice to their clients and to this profession.

[drdolittle]

however, this profession is still a calling. Its a disgrace for people just to go to law school because they need something to do or they care about the title.

If people are not going for the reasons of helping their clients, fighting for justice, etc., then they are truly doing a disservice to their clients and to this profession.

. But I don't necessarily disagree with you, in principle, except such idealized criteria could be applied to almost all other professions/careers (e.g. medicine), and would likely DQ many top students.

[JustBelieve]

however, this profession is still a calling. Its a disgrace for people just to go to law school because they need something to do or they care about the title.

If people are not going for the reasons of helping their clients, fighting for justice, etc., then they are truly doing a disservice to their clients and to this profession.

. But I don't necessarily disagree with you, in principle, except such idealized criteria could be applied to almost all other professions/careers (e.g. medicine), and would likely DQ many top students.

True, just because you get straight A's does not mean you have a right to be a lawyer. It just may not be your calling.

[JustBelieve]

I actually started a poll that is similar to what you are asking.

The poll is at: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5&t=126269

[stratocophic]

however, this profession is still a calling. Its a disgrace for people just to go to law school because they need something to do or they care about the title.

If people are not going for the reasons of helping their clients, fighting for justice, etc., then they are truly doing a disservice to their clients and to this profession.

. But I don't necessarily disagree with you, in principle, except such idealized criteria could be applied to almost all other professions/careers (e.g. medicine), and would likely DQ many top students.

True, just because you get straight A's does not mean you have a right to be a lawyer. It just may not be your calling.

Initial reactions:

Then, all the straight-A kids said

[GettingReady2010]

OP: You wouldn't believe how many people in my UG were just going to law school JUST BECAUSE it was something to do and it looked prestigious. Don't get me wrong, the prestige is alluring, however, this profession is still a calling. Its a disgrace for people just to go to law school because they need something to do or they care about the title.

If people are not going for the reasons of helping their clients, fighting for justice, etc., then they are truly doing a disservice to their clients and to this profession.

TITCR

[ZachOda]

Hey, at least law schools aren't building rock walls and pools for their students yet like some UG's. Seriously, when did college become sleep away camp?

[grouchynihilist]

OP: You wouldn't believe how many people in my UG were just going to law school JUST BECAUSE it was something to do and it looked prestigious. Don't get me wrong, the prestige is alluring, however, this profession is still a calling. Its a disgrace for people just to go to law school because they need something to do or they care about the title.

If people are not going for the reasons of helping their clients, fighting for justice, etc., then they are truly doing a disservice to their clients and to this profession.

Your classmates (and believe me, I had them too - every goddamn history and poli sci major with a decent GPA is off to law school) will be fucked by debt and a job which offers a salary that dont justify the hours. Or if they don't have debt, they just blew through 160k that could have been spent doing models and bottles but instead went to pay for insulting professors, crushing workloads, cutthroat classmates, etc.