Senioritis / Quitting-my-job-soon-ioritis Forum

[suralin]

wait there are q's to answer?

oh I guess if you don't log in

[07152016]

..

[pdevastey]

10 min late reply. this thread is fast

[lemonparty]

wait there are q's to answer?

oh I guess if you don't log in

yeah us plebs who don't have spotify had to pick 5 artists so it's probably not *quite* as accurate since you can only click more options so many times before it starts refreshing the same artists

[rska884]

You can't use one piece of art as an evaluation criterion for another, especially if the purpose of the latter piece is to be distinct in its own way. To me, that doesn't make any sense.

Again, that's not what I'm doing.

When I evaluate Jaime's arc in the books on its own merits, I think it's interesting and complex and deep.

When I evaluate Jaime's arc in the show, it basically stalls after the rape.

Evaluating them completely on their own merits, I think the show falls short in this regard.

As a professional storyteller, I thought that was some really bad storytelling on the show's part.

That's all.

GFox, this is what I'm trying to say too, although I agree with you that there's a piece of this that's driven by the crime in question being rape, rather than something else. I just think they all work together, so it's important to understand both.

To piggyback off of Winter's post, I think it might help to break down my thoughts on these -

[+] Spoiler

In the books, Jaime starts as being portrayed as the standard fantasy-trope villain. Good looking, skilled in fighting, cocky, jocky, generally a douche. Add in the incest shown very early on and the backstory that he killed the king he was supposed to defend, he's the pinnacle of antagonist. GRRM then breaks down these tropes - the incest is driven by true love, and in turn this love is the backbone of most of his other actions; the kingslaying was actually done to protect the small folk. Then Jaime loses his swordhand (a central part of his public identity) and starts to realize Cersei doesn't love him the way he loves her, and has even been cheating on him (the central part of his private identity). He starts to show that he admired Brienne (the books' "true" knight) and has picked up some of her ethics, and rides around the Riverlands displaying skills at diplomacy Tyrion would've been proud of (subverting the smart brother vs. strong brother trope as well). This is his growth.

In the show, he starts the same way - fantasy-trope villain. They start to break down those tropes (true love through conversation with Catelyn, the kingslayer story), and he loses his hand, saves Brienne, and starts to show the transformation I discussed. Then, he gets back to King's Landing, rapes Cersei (reaffirming his role as villain), doesn't learn she's cheating on him (undermining the loss of private identity that spurs his growth), then goes on a violent adventure to save their daughter at her request (undermining both the loss of private identity - he still loves Cersei - and public identity - he's still a skilled fighter). While I understand your interpretation of the scene, that just sounds like the same character at the end of S5 as he was at the beginning of S1.

[The Abyss]

Tyrion Lannister

36% Classical
30% Folk
34% Classic Jazz

[suralin]

wait there are q's to answer?

oh I guess if you don't log in

yeah us plebs who don't have spotify had to pick 5 artists so it's probably not *quite* as accurate since you can only click more options so many times before it starts refreshing the same artists

wtf you don't have spotify!?

[WinterComing]

You can't use one piece of art as an evaluation criterion for another, especially if the purpose of the latter piece is to be distinct in its own way. To me, that doesn't make any sense.

Again, that's not what I'm doing.

When I evaluate Jaime's arc in the books on its own merits, I think it's interesting and complex and deep.

When I evaluate Jaime's arc in the show, it basically stalls after the rape.

Evaluating them completely on their own merits, I think the show falls short in this regard.

As a professional storyteller, I thought that was some really bad storytelling on the show's part.

That's all.

GFox, this is what I'm trying to say too, although I agree with you that there's a piece of this that's driven by the crime in question being rape, rather than something else. I just think they all work together, so it's important to understand both.

To piggyback off of Winter's post, I think it might help to break down my thoughts on these -

[+] Spoiler

In the books, Jaime starts as being portrayed as the standard fantasy-trope villain. Good looking, skilled in fighting, cocky, jocky, generally a douche. Add in the incest shown very early on and the backstory that he killed the king he was supposed to defend, he's the pinnacle of antagonist. GRRM then breaks down these tropes - the incest is driven by true love, and in turn this love is the backbone of most of his other actions; the kingslaying was actually done to protect the small folk. Then Jaime loses his swordhand (a central part of his public identity) and starts to realize Cersei doesn't love him the way he loves her, and has even been cheating on him (the central part of his private identity). He starts to show that he admired Brienne (the books' "true" knight) and has picked up some of her ethics, and rides around the Riverlands displaying skills at diplomacy Tyrion would've been proud of (subverting the smart brother vs. strong brother trope as well). This is his growth.

In the show, he starts the same way - fantasy-trope villain. They start to break down those tropes (true love through conversation with Catelyn, the kingslayer story), and he loses his hand, saves Brienne, and starts to show the transformation I discussed. Then, he gets back to King's Landing, rapes Cersei (reaffirming his role as villain), doesn't learn she's cheating on him (undermining the loss of private identity that spurs his growth), then goes on a violent adventure to save their daughter at her request (undermining both the loss of private identity - he still loves Cersei - and public identity - he's still a skilled fighter). While I understand your interpretation of the scene, that just sounds like the same character at the end of S5 as he was at the beginning of S1.

I agree with this. The rape scene isn't viable in the show because it cancels out all of the character development that happens when he's with Brienne and makes him much more one-dimensional.

[darkchildnana]

You can't use one piece of art as an evaluation criterion for another, especially if the purpose of the latter piece is to be distinct in its own way. To me, that doesn't make any sense.

Again, that's not what I'm doing.

When I evaluate Jaime's arc in the books on its own merits, I think it's interesting and complex and deep.

When I evaluate Jaime's arc in the show, it basically stalls after the rape.

Evaluating them completely on their own merits, I think the show falls short in this regard.

As a professional storyteller, I thought that was some really bad storytelling on the show's part.

That's all.

GFox, this is what I'm trying to say too, although I agree with you that there's a piece of this that's driven by the crime in question being rape, rather than something else. I just think they all work together, so it's important to understand both.

To piggyback off of Winter's post, I think it might help to break down my thoughts on these -

[+] Spoiler

In the books, Jaime starts as being portrayed as the standard fantasy-trope villain. Good looking, skilled in fighting, cocky, jocky, generally a douche. Add in the incest shown very early on and the backstory that he killed the king he was supposed to defend, he's the pinnacle of antagonist. GRRM then breaks down these tropes - the incest is driven by true love, and in turn this love is the backbone of most of his other actions; the kingslaying was actually done to protect the small folk. Then Jaime loses his swordhand (a central part of his public identity) and starts to realize Cersei doesn't love him the way he loves her, and has even been cheating on him (the central part of his private identity). He starts to show that he admired Brienne (the books' "true" knight) and has picked up some of her ethics, and rides around the Riverlands displaying skills at diplomacy Tyrion would've been proud of (subverting the smart brother vs. strong brother trope as well). This is his growth.

In the show, he starts the same way - fantasy-trope villain. They start to break down those tropes (true love through conversation with Catelyn, the kingslayer story), and he loses his hand, saves Brienne, and starts to show the transformation I discussed. Then, he gets back to King's Landing, rapes Cersei (reaffirming his role as villain), doesn't learn she's cheating on him (undermining the loss of private identity that spurs his growth), then goes on a violent adventure to save their daughter at her request (undermining both the loss of private identity - he still loves Cersei - and public identity - he's still a skilled fighter). While I understand your interpretation of the scene, that just sounds like the same character at the end of S5 as he was at the beginning of S1.

I agree with this. The rape scene isn't viable in the show because it cancels out all of the character development that happens when he's with Brienne and makes him much more one-dimensional.

[07152016]

..

[darkchildnana]

wait there are q's to answer?

oh I guess if you don't log in

yeah us plebs who don't have spotify had to pick 5 artists so it's probably not *quite* as accurate since you can only click more options so many times before it starts refreshing the same artists

wtf you don't have spotify!?

apple music ftw!

[rska884]

Alright everyone, let's have more fun. Which GOT character do you share music taste with?

http://www.spotify-gameofthrones.com

I got Dany.

Margaery!

35% Mellow Pop
42% Soul
23% Blues

You sound cool. What soul are you listening to?

[WinterComing]

Alright everyone, let's have more fun. Which GOT character do you share music taste with?

http://www.spotify-gameofthrones.com

I got Dany.

Margaery!

35% Mellow Pop
42% Soul
23% Blues

I like that your musical tastes align perfectly with your lack of evilness.

[lemonparty]

wait there are q's to answer?

oh I guess if you don't log in

yeah us plebs who don't have spotify had to pick 5 artists so it's probably not *quite* as accurate since you can only click more options so many times before it starts refreshing the same artists

wtf you don't have spotify!?

apple music ftw!

^^^ this, i'm still on my 3 month free trial and loving it so far

[GFox345]

You can't use one piece of art as an evaluation criterion for another, especially if the purpose of the latter piece is to be distinct in its own way. To me, that doesn't make any sense.

Again, that's not what I'm doing.

When I evaluate Jaime's arc in the books on its own merits, I think it's interesting and complex and deep.

When I evaluate Jaime's arc in the show, it basically stalls after the rape.

Evaluating them completely on their own merits, I think the show falls short in this regard.

As a professional storyteller, I thought that was some really bad storytelling on the show's part.

That's all.

GFox, this is what I'm trying to say too, although I agree with you that there's a piece of this that's driven by the crime in question being rape, rather than something else. I just think they all work together, so it's important to understand both.

To piggyback off of Winter's post, I think it might help to break down my thoughts on these -

[+] Spoiler

In the books, Jaime starts as being portrayed as the standard fantasy-trope villain. Good looking, skilled in fighting, cocky, jocky, generally a douche. Add in the incest shown very early on and the backstory that he killed the king he was supposed to defend, he's the pinnacle of antagonist. GRRM then breaks down these tropes - the incest is driven by true love, and in turn this love is the backbone of most of his other actions; the kingslaying was actually done to protect the small folk. Then Jaime loses his swordhand (a central part of his public identity) and starts to realize Cersei doesn't love him the way he loves her, and has even been cheating on him (the central part of his private identity). He starts to show that he admired Brienne (the books' "true" knight) and has picked up some of her ethics, and rides around the Riverlands displaying skills at diplomacy Tyrion would've been proud of (subverting the smart brother vs. strong brother trope as well). This is his growth.

In the show, he starts the same way - fantasy-trope villain. They start to break down those tropes (true love through conversation with Catelyn, the kingslayer story), and he loses his hand, saves Brienne, and starts to show the transformation I discussed. Then, he gets back to King's Landing, rapes Cersei (reaffirming his role as villain), doesn't learn she's cheating on him (undermining the loss of private identity that spurs his growth), then goes on a violent adventure to save their daughter at her request (undermining both the loss of private identity - he still loves Cersei - and public identity - he's still a skilled fighter). While I understand your interpretation of the scene, that just sounds like the same character at the end of S5 as he was at the beginning of S1.

I agree with this. The rape scene isn't viable in the show because it cancels out all of the character development that happens when he's with Brienne and makes him much more one-dimensional.

I agree that Jaime becomes much more one-dimensional in the 5th season, but I don't think this followed as a necessary consequence of the rape scene. I also fail to understand how it cancels out all of his character development.

Game of Thrones, to me, is much more complex than that. We don't have, so to speak, heroes against villains. We see almost every character embody the characteristics of both hero and villain (except for maybe Ned Stark and Joffrey). For example, Tyrion, a character that seems to me to have many characteristics of a hero, murders his ex-lover and father in cold blood. But we don't condemn Tyrion because we understand what he does - even feel for him.

On the other hand, Jaime, who appears to us first as a Villain shows that he has a better side in the story line with Brienne. He risks his life to save her from a bear, lies to prevent her from being raped, etc. But then he, when overcome by passion and lust, rapes his sister over the dead body of their son.

The reason that I love Game of Thrones so much is that we see people as people - not as fanaticized versions of people that fall into neat tropes. Each character is a person that acts largely out of self-interest. But at times, characters do rise to answer higher callings - those like honor, duty, and love.

I share your disapproval for Jaime's post-rape scene character arch. It seems to me to have hugely wasted the potential of the character. That much we can agree on. That was a very shitty decision on the writers' part in my opinion.

However, the future boringness of his arch was in no way necessitated by the rape scene, and as I said before, I think it could have lead to equally complex and interesting character archs to the ones that you have briefly described from the books.

I disagree with the idea that the rape scene interrupts or breaks any sort of pending change in Jaime. It just shows us a much more well-rounded, realistic look at him as an imperfect (and perhaps deeply-flawed) character.

[benwyatt]

Oh hi there.

















pie rools, cake drools

[suralin]

yeah us plebs who don't have spotify had to pick 5 artists so it's probably not *quite* as accurate since you can only click more options so many times before it starts refreshing the same artists

wtf you don't have spotify!?

apple music ftw!

^^^ this, i'm still on my 3 month free trial and loving it so far

hmm sell me on it plz I do have a rep to maintain as an apple fanboi

[07152016]

..

[rska884]

You can't use one piece of art as an evaluation criterion for another, especially if the purpose of the latter piece is to be distinct in its own way. To me, that doesn't make any sense.

Again, that's not what I'm doing.

When I evaluate Jaime's arc in the books on its own merits, I think it's interesting and complex and deep.

When I evaluate Jaime's arc in the show, it basically stalls after the rape.

Evaluating them completely on their own merits, I think the show falls short in this regard.

As a professional storyteller, I thought that was some really bad storytelling on the show's part.

That's all.

GFox, this is what I'm trying to say too, although I agree with you that there's a piece of this that's driven by the crime in question being rape, rather than something else. I just think they all work together, so it's important to understand both.

To piggyback off of Winter's post, I think it might help to break down my thoughts on these -

[+] Spoiler

In the books, Jaime starts as being portrayed as the standard fantasy-trope villain. Good looking, skilled in fighting, cocky, jocky, generally a douche. Add in the incest shown very early on and the backstory that he killed the king he was supposed to defend, he's the pinnacle of antagonist. GRRM then breaks down these tropes - the incest is driven by true love, and in turn this love is the backbone of most of his other actions; the kingslaying was actually done to protect the small folk. Then Jaime loses his swordhand (a central part of his public identity) and starts to realize Cersei doesn't love him the way he loves her, and has even been cheating on him (the central part of his private identity). He starts to show that he admired Brienne (the books' "true" knight) and has picked up some of her ethics, and rides around the Riverlands displaying skills at diplomacy Tyrion would've been proud of (subverting the smart brother vs. strong brother trope as well). This is his growth.

In the show, he starts the same way - fantasy-trope villain. They start to break down those tropes (true love through conversation with Catelyn, the kingslayer story), and he loses his hand, saves Brienne, and starts to show the transformation I discussed. Then, he gets back to King's Landing, rapes Cersei (reaffirming his role as villain), doesn't learn she's cheating on him (undermining the loss of private identity that spurs his growth), then goes on a violent adventure to save their daughter at her request (undermining both the loss of private identity - he still loves Cersei - and public identity - he's still a skilled fighter). While I understand your interpretation of the scene, that just sounds like the same character at the end of S5 as he was at the beginning of S1.

I agree with this. The rape scene isn't viable in the show because it cancels out all of the character development that happens when he's with Brienne and makes him much more one-dimensional.

I agree that Jaime become much more one-dimensional in the 5th season, but I don't think this followed as a necessary consequence of the rape scene. I also fail to understand how it cancels out all of his character development.

Game of Thrones, to me, is much more complex than that. We don't have, so to speak, heroes against villains. We see almost every character embody the characteristics of both hero and villain (except for maybe Ned Stark and Joffrey). For example, Tyrion, a character that seems to me to have many characteristics of a hero, murders his ex-lover and father in cold blood. But we don't condemn Tyrion because we understand what he does - even feel for him.

On the other hand, Jaime, who appears to us first as a Villain shows that he has a better side in the story line with Brienne. He risks his life to save her from a bear, lies to prevent her from being raped, etc. But then he, when overcome by passion and lust, rapes his sister over the dead body of their son.

The reason that I love Game of Thrones so much is that we see people as people - not as fanaticized versions of people that fall into neat tropes. Each character is a person that acts largely out of self-interest. But at times, characters do rise to answer higher callings - those like honor, duty, and love.

I share your disapproval for Jaime's post-rape scene character arch. It seems to me to have hugely wasted the potential of the character. That much we can agree on. That was a very shitty decision on the writers' part in my opinion.

However, the future boringness of his arch was in no way necessitated by the rape scene, and as I said before, I think it could have lead to equally complex and interesting character archs to the ones that you have briefly described from the books.

I disagree with the idea that the rape scene interrupts or breaks any sort of pending change in Jaime. It just shows us a much more well-rounded, realistic look at him as an imperfect (and perhaps deeply-flawed) character.

Agree to disagree, then. I see the rape scene as a beginning point for the writer's failure - it seems that the S05 arc comes from their interpretation of Jaime as a character, which I dislike, and I think the starting point of their interpretation showing itself is the rape scene. Although I get the interpretation you provided, the rape scene seemed very jarring to me (and apparently, to a number of others) following the positive development he showed with Brienne. It seemed not as a realistic flaw, but rather as incongrous - or directly in conflict with - the growth he had shown, and didn't seem to follow logically from the immediately preceding scenes. Maybe if we had gone directly from his jail cell conversation with Catelyn to the rape scene, I'd agree more with your interpretation, but with the season long story with Brienne, it just seemed out of place for me. That's where my problem with it comes from - not from my thoughts on a hot button issue.

[GFox345]

You can't use one piece of art as an evaluation criterion for another, especially if the purpose of the latter piece is to be distinct in its own way. To me, that doesn't make any sense.

Again, that's not what I'm doing.

When I evaluate Jaime's arc in the books on its own merits, I think it's interesting and complex and deep.

When I evaluate Jaime's arc in the show, it basically stalls after the rape.

Evaluating them completely on their own merits, I think the show falls short in this regard.

As a professional storyteller, I thought that was some really bad storytelling on the show's part.

That's all.

GFox, this is what I'm trying to say too, although I agree with you that there's a piece of this that's driven by the crime in question being rape, rather than something else. I just think they all work together, so it's important to understand both.

To piggyback off of Winter's post, I think it might help to break down my thoughts on these -

[+] Spoiler

In the books, Jaime starts as being portrayed as the standard fantasy-trope villain. Good looking, skilled in fighting, cocky, jocky, generally a douche. Add in the incest shown very early on and the backstory that he killed the king he was supposed to defend, he's the pinnacle of antagonist. GRRM then breaks down these tropes - the incest is driven by true love, and in turn this love is the backbone of most of his other actions; the kingslaying was actually done to protect the small folk. Then Jaime loses his swordhand (a central part of his public identity) and starts to realize Cersei doesn't love him the way he loves her, and has even been cheating on him (the central part of his private identity). He starts to show that he admired Brienne (the books' "true" knight) and has picked up some of her ethics, and rides around the Riverlands displaying skills at diplomacy Tyrion would've been proud of (subverting the smart brother vs. strong brother trope as well). This is his growth.

In the show, he starts the same way - fantasy-trope villain. They start to break down those tropes (true love through conversation with Catelyn, the kingslayer story), and he loses his hand, saves Brienne, and starts to show the transformation I discussed. Then, he gets back to King's Landing, rapes Cersei (reaffirming his role as villain), doesn't learn she's cheating on him (undermining the loss of private identity that spurs his growth), then goes on a violent adventure to save their daughter at her request (undermining both the loss of private identity - he still loves Cersei - and public identity - he's still a skilled fighter). While I understand your interpretation of the scene, that just sounds like the same character at the end of S5 as he was at the beginning of S1.

I agree with this. The rape scene isn't viable in the show because it cancels out all of the character development that happens when he's with Brienne and makes him much more one-dimensional.

For the record, even if we disagree, I want to thank you two from the bottom of my heart for filling my last, horribly boring day of work with an interesting discussion about Game of Thrones. You saved my life, really.

[lemonparty]

these were my choices (I'm lame and don't have spotify):

Hozier
Of Monsters & Men
Mumford & Sons
Adele
The Weeknd

mine were-
Led Zeppelin
Drake
Mumford & Sons
Muse
The White Stripes

[suralin]

Margaery!

35% Mellow Pop
42% Soul
23% Blues

You sound cool. What soul are you listening to?

Thanks! Definitely didn't think any of my music fell under the soul genre -- these were my choices (I'm lame and don't have spotify):

Hozier
Of Monsters & Men
Mumford & Sons
Adele
The Weeknd

I love mumford & sons and of monsters

[rska884]

Alright everyone, let's have more fun. Which GOT character do you share music taste with?

http://www.spotify-gameofthrones.com

I got Dany.

Margaery!

35% Mellow Pop
42% Soul
23% Blues

You sound cool. What soul are you listening to?

Thanks! Definitely didn't think any of my music fell under the soul genre -- these were my choices (I'm lame and don't have spotify):

Hozier
Of Monsters & Men
Mumford & Sons
Adele
The Weeknd

Haha OK those don't seem like soul. All good choices, though.

[suralin]

def questioning the genre assignments of that quiz

I just started scrobbling (ANALYTICS) but here are most of the artists I listen to http://www.last.fm/user/suralin8/library/artists

unfortunately it doesn't pick up on amazon echo spotify

[GFox345]

You can't use one piece of art as an evaluation criterion for another, especially if the purpose of the latter piece is to be distinct in its own way. To me, that doesn't make any sense.

Again, that's not what I'm doing.

When I evaluate Jaime's arc in the books on its own merits, I think it's interesting and complex and deep.

When I evaluate Jaime's arc in the show, it basically stalls after the rape.

Evaluating them completely on their own merits, I think the show falls short in this regard.

As a professional storyteller, I thought that was some really bad storytelling on the show's part.

That's all.

GFox, this is what I'm trying to say too, although I agree with you that there's a piece of this that's driven by the crime in question being rape, rather than something else. I just think they all work together, so it's important to understand both.

To piggyback off of Winter's post, I think it might help to break down my thoughts on these -

[+] Spoiler

In the books, Jaime starts as being portrayed as the standard fantasy-trope villain. Good looking, skilled in fighting, cocky, jocky, generally a douche. Add in the incest shown very early on and the backstory that he killed the king he was supposed to defend, he's the pinnacle of antagonist. GRRM then breaks down these tropes - the incest is driven by true love, and in turn this love is the backbone of most of his other actions; the kingslaying was actually done to protect the small folk. Then Jaime loses his swordhand (a central part of his public identity) and starts to realize Cersei doesn't love him the way he loves her, and has even been cheating on him (the central part of his private identity). He starts to show that he admired Brienne (the books' "true" knight) and has picked up some of her ethics, and rides around the Riverlands displaying skills at diplomacy Tyrion would've been proud of (subverting the smart brother vs. strong brother trope as well). This is his growth.

In the show, he starts the same way - fantasy-trope villain. They start to break down those tropes (true love through conversation with Catelyn, the kingslayer story), and he loses his hand, saves Brienne, and starts to show the transformation I discussed. Then, he gets back to King's Landing, rapes Cersei (reaffirming his role as villain), doesn't learn she's cheating on him (undermining the loss of private identity that spurs his growth), then goes on a violent adventure to save their daughter at her request (undermining both the loss of private identity - he still loves Cersei - and public identity - he's still a skilled fighter). While I understand your interpretation of the scene, that just sounds like the same character at the end of S5 as he was at the beginning of S1.

I agree with this. The rape scene isn't viable in the show because it cancels out all of the character development that happens when he's with Brienne and makes him much more one-dimensional.

I agree that Jaime become much more one-dimensional in the 5th season, but I don't think this followed as a necessary consequence of the rape scene. I also fail to understand how it cancels out all of his character development.

Game of Thrones, to me, is much more complex than that. We don't have, so to speak, heroes against villains. We see almost every character embody the characteristics of both hero and villain (except for maybe Ned Stark and Joffrey). For example, Tyrion, a character that seems to me to have many characteristics of a hero, murders his ex-lover and father in cold blood. But we don't condemn Tyrion because we understand what he does - even feel for him.

On the other hand, Jaime, who appears to us first as a Villain shows that he has a better side in the story line with Brienne. He risks his life to save her from a bear, lies to prevent her from being raped, etc. But then he, when overcome by passion and lust, rapes his sister over the dead body of their son.

The reason that I love Game of Thrones so much is that we see people as people - not as fanaticized versions of people that fall into neat tropes. Each character is a person that acts largely out of self-interest. But at times, characters do rise to answer higher callings - those like honor, duty, and love.

I share your disapproval for Jaime's post-rape scene character arch. It seems to me to have hugely wasted the potential of the character. That much we can agree on. That was a very shitty decision on the writers' part in my opinion.

However, the future boringness of his arch was in no way necessitated by the rape scene, and as I said before, I think it could have lead to equally complex and interesting character archs to the ones that you have briefly described from the books.

I disagree with the idea that the rape scene interrupts or breaks any sort of pending change in Jaime. It just shows us a much more well-rounded, realistic look at him as an imperfect (and perhaps deeply-flawed) character.

Agree to disagree, then. I see the rape scene as a beginning point for the writer's failure - it seems that the S05 arc comes from their interpretation of Jaime as a character, which I dislike, and I think the starting point of their interpretation showing itself is the rape scene. Although I get the interpretation you provided, the rape scene seemed very jarring to me (and apparently, to a number of others) following the positive development he showed with Brienne. It seemed not as a realistic flaw, but rather as incongrous - or directly in conflict with - the growth he had shown, and didn't seem to follow logically from the immediately preceding scenes. Maybe if we had gone directly from his jail cell conversation with Catelyn to the rape scene, I'd agree more with your interpretation, but with the season long story with Brienne, it just seemed out of place for me. That's where my problem with it comes from - not from my thoughts on a hot button issue.

I definitely understand your point. The scene comes in stark contrast to the way Jaime developed in Seasons 2 and 3. But I do believe that it made sense in light of the pain Jaime endured attempting to return to King's Landing and Cersei. You may be right that the writers saw the Rape Scene as an opportunity to revert Jaime to his original character arch, and if so that is unfortunate. That being said, I still think the rape scene really could have lead to a much more interesting outcome.

Again, thank you for the interesting conversation and, above all, for saving me from this horrible last day at work!