Senioritis / Quitting-my-job-soon-ioritis Forum

[TheKisSquared]

FUUUUUUUCKKKKKKK THIS.

same.

[LALaw90210]

I really just don't understand why people get so worked up about the rape scene. I mean Game of Thrones is full beyond measure of murder, torture, and just general human suffering. Rape is awful, but in the context of Game of Thrones, it seems almost innocuous by comparison.

You're missing the point. The reason that scene was so awful wasn't just that it was a rape but that it was completely incongruous with Jaime's character and ruined what was a really a more interesting scene in the book.

Agree with this tho

[barley]

I really just don't understand why people get so worked up about the rape scene. I mean Game of Thrones is full beyond measure of murder, torture, and just general human suffering. Rape is awful, but in the context of Game of Thrones, it seems almost innocuous by comparison.

I don't have as much of a problem with the amount of rape in GoT as some people do (I think it's a realistic depiction of what life is like for women when there's no rule of law), but that specific rape scene was IMO in poor taste because the producers didn't even view it as a rape scene... like, they were surprised when people were upset about it. She clearly said no/didn't give consent, but the fact that the show/producers portrayed it as just a sex scene and not a rape scene perpetuates the idea that just because she didn't really 'fight back' very hard, it's not rape. And that's patently false.

[suralin]

yeah it was ~problematic~ bc it perpetuated a pernicious rape myth

[lemonparty]

Almost the weekend. Anyone with any cool plans for the weekend?

going home to Wisconsin!

[rska884]

The rape scene was awful. They also gutted his character development in the fifth season and it looks like it's going to get even worse in the sixth (before potentially getting better), which I hate. His arc in the books is, in my opinion, the most compelling, though. And he's a badass.

I really just don't understand why people get so worked up about the rape scene. I mean Game of Thrones is full beyond measure of murder, torture, and just general human suffering. Rape is awful, but in the context of Game of Thrones, it seems almost innocuous by comparison.

Because it was useless. Do you read the books? Going to toss this in spoilers, and it's a bit of a rant, so feel free to ignore me. I want to preface this by saying I'm not someone who hates changes from the books just because; my problem is when the show gets things tonally wrong.

[+] Spoiler

The problem with the scene isn't just that it's a rape scene. GOT is full of terrible things happening to people, but usually they serve a world building or character building purpose. I think it's really impressive how GRRM managed to create this awful world without having situations feel like they were included for shock value. Some of those most vile stuff that happens in these books (the stories from the Mountain's men, for instance?) feels like it has worth in the framework of the storytelling.

This scene had no worth. Jaime's central motivation as a character is his love for Cersei - think him pushing Bran off the tower, or the speech he gives Catelyn when he's locked up. One of the most interesting conflicts in the books is between his genuine, true love for his sister, and her love only for the reflection of herself she sees in him - as he realizes that over the course of AFFC and ADWD, it's one of the central drivers of his transformation. I absolutely love everything about the way that whole story is written and the way we watch his character slowly shift over time, not because of any singular event (which happens quite a bit in the books), but because of the gradual shift in his view of reality.

The rape scene in the show was totally in contrast to that. The show managed to hint at the underlying depth to Jaime's character in the first two seasons (the same way it's hinted at in the first two books), but then veers off into deepening his role as the uber-Jock, 80's high school movie villain. This was one of the most egregious examples of turning Jaime into a caricature (the Dorne storyline being another), and seems to have been included solely for shock value.

Beyond that, though, I think sexual assault is a topic that needs to be approached with care and sensitivity. I don't think it's something that art should avoid entirely, but when you're going there, you need to be certain that it has an artistic purpose and that purpose is effected well. So when you combine the absolute lack of artistic merit with the topic in question, it becomes a really crappy situation. I think the showrunners dropped the ball on this one and I totally get why people were so upset about it.

[barley]

oh wow can't believe I hadn't thought of this but totally shipping dailybarley / barleygrind

Tragically I don't think we'd have time for each other we're too busy caring for our plants.

[GFox345]

I really just don't understand why people get so worked up about the rape scene. I mean Game of Thrones is full beyond measure of murder, torture, and just general human suffering. Rape is awful, but in the context of Game of Thrones, it seems almost innocuous by comparison.

You're missing the point. The reason that scene was so awful wasn't just that it was a rape but that it was completely incongruous with Jaime's character and ruined what was a really a more interesting scene in the book.

I was addressing it from the perspective of the morally outraged audience - the crowd that said "I'm done with Game of Thrones" because of the rape scene. That seems ridiculous to me.

On the Jaime point:

How exactly do you think it was completely incongruous with Jamie's character? He pushed a 10 year-old boy out of a window to what Jaime intended to be his death in the first episode. We do see a much more compassionate side of Jaime when Catelyn Stark releases him and he travels back to King's Landing with Brienne, but he does seem to me to have some serious narcissistic and sociopathic tendencies. I really wasn't that surprised at all by the rape scene.

[suralin]

[I really just don't understand why people get so worked up about the rape scene. I mean Game of Thrones is full beyond measure of murder, torture, and just general human suffering. Rape is awful, but in the context of Game of Thrones, it seems almost innocuous by comparison.

Because it was useless. Do you read the books? Going to toss this in spoilers, and it's a bit of a rant, so feel free to ignore me. I want to preface this by saying I'm not someone who hates changes from the books just because; my problem is when the show gets things tonally wrong.

[+] Spoiler

The problem with the scene isn't just that it's a rape scene. GOT is full of terrible things happening to people, but usually they serve a world building or character building purpose. I think it's really impressive how GRRM managed to create this awful world without having situations feel like they were included for shock value. Some of those most vile stuff that happens in these books (the stories from the Mountain's men, for instance?) feels like it has worth in the framework of the storytelling.

This scene had no worth. Jaime's central motivation as a character is his love for Cersei - think him pushing Bran off the tower, or the speech he gives Catelyn when he's locked up. One of the most interesting conflicts in the books is between his genuine, true love for his sister, and her love only for the reflection of herself she sees in him - as he realizes that over the course of AFFC and ADWD, it's one of the central drivers of his transformation. I absolutely love everything about the way that whole story is written and the way we watch his character slowly shift over time, not because of any singular event (which happens quite a bit in the books), but because of the gradual shift in his view of reality.

The rape scene in the show was totally in contrast to that. The show managed to hint at the underlying depth to Jaime's character in the first two seasons (the same way it's hinted at in the first two books), but then veers off into deepening his role as the uber-Jock, 80's high school movie villain. This was one of the most egregious examples of turning Jaime into a caricature (the Dorne storyline being another), and seems to have been included solely for shock value.

Beyond that, though, I think sexual assault is a topic that needs to be approached with care and sensitivity. I don't think it's something that art should avoid entirely, but when you're going there, you need to be certain that it has an artistic purpose and that purpose is effected well. So when you combine the absolute lack of artistic merit with the topic in question, it becomes a really crappy situation. I think the showrunners dropped the ball on this one and I totally get why people were so upset about it.

agreed. grimdark for its own sake is lazy, shallow, and, here, kind of ridiculously tonedeaf. they threw away a lot of character development/nuance for shock value and to seemingly underscore just how GRIM and DARK grrm's universe is

[barley]

I was addressing it from the perspective of the morally outraged audience - the crowd that said "I'm done with Game of Thrones" because of the rape scene. That seems ridiculous to me.

I don't have as much of a problem with the amount of rape in GoT as some people do (I think it's a realistic depiction of what life is like for women when there's no rule of law), but that specific rape scene was IMO in poor taste because the producers didn't even view it as a rape scene... like, they were surprised when people were upset about it. She clearly said no/didn't give consent, but the fact that the show/producers portrayed it as just a sex scene and not a rape scene perpetuates the idea that just because she didn't really 'fight back' very hard, it's not rape. And that's patently false.

[TheKisSquared]

Because it was useless. Do you read the books? Going to toss this in spoilers, and it's a bit of a rant, so feel free to ignore me. I want to preface this by saying I'm not someone who hates changes from the books just because; my problem is when the show gets things tonally wrong.

[+] Spoiler

The problem with the scene isn't just that it's a rape scene. GOT is full of terrible things happening to people, but usually they serve a world building or character building purpose. I think it's really impressive how GRRM managed to create this awful world without having situations feel like they were included for shock value. Some of those most vile stuff that happens in these books (the stories from the Mountain's men, for instance?) feels like it has worth in the framework of the storytelling.

This scene had no worth. Jaime's central motivation as a character is his love for Cersei - think him pushing Bran off the tower, or the speech he gives Catelyn when he's locked up. One of the most interesting conflicts in the books is between his genuine, true love for his sister, and her love only for the reflection of herself she sees in him - as he realizes that over the course of AFFC and ADWD, it's one of the central drivers of his transformation. I absolutely love everything about the way that whole story is written and the way we watch his character slowly shift over time, not because of any singular event (which happens quite a bit in the books), but because of the gradual shift in his view of reality.

The rape scene in the show was totally in contrast to that. The show managed to hint at the underlying depth to Jaime's character in the first two seasons (the same way it's hinted at in the first two books), but then veers off into deepening his role as the uber-Jock, 80's high school movie villain. This was one of the most egregious examples of turning Jaime into a caricature (the Dorne storyline being another), and seems to have been included solely for shock value.

Beyond that, though, I think sexual assault is a topic that needs to be approached with care and sensitivity. I don't think it's something that art should avoid entirely, but when you're going there, you need to be certain that it has an artistic purpose and that purpose is effected well. So when you combine the absolute lack of artistic merit with the topic in question, it becomes a really crappy situation. I think the showrunners dropped the ball on this one and I totally get why people were so upset about it.

100% agree with all of this. I was literally going to write out something similar but you beat me to it.
I'm just not fast enough for this thread.

[ugg]

fuck gratuitous rape scenes

they don't advance the female narrative

[rska884]

I really just don't understand why people get so worked up about the rape scene. I mean Game of Thrones is full beyond measure of murder, torture, and just general human suffering. Rape is awful, but in the context of Game of Thrones, it seems almost innocuous by comparison.

You're missing the point. The reason that scene was so awful wasn't just that it was a rape but that it was completely incongruous with Jaime's character and ruined what was a really a more interesting scene in the book.

I was addressing it from the perspective of the morally outraged audience - the crowd that said "I'm done with Game of Thrones" because of the rape scene. That seems ridiculous to me.

On the Jaime point:

How exactly do you think it was completely incongruous with Jamie's character? He pushed a 10 year-old boy out of a window to what Jaime intended to be his death in the first episode. We do see a much more compassionate side of Jaime when Catelyn Stark releases him and he travels back to King's Landing with Brienne, but he does seem to me to have some serious narcissistic and sociopathic tendencies. I really wasn't that surprised at all by the rape scene.

I just posted something a little more in depth on this - just my thoughts. Let me know what you think.

Also, for the morally outraged side, I think I touched on it in my post above - I think there's something to be said about the failure specifically of this scene (and of the similar one last season with two different characters) to work as world-building or character-building. For me, these two felt more specifically like shock value inclusions than other morally lacking scenes in the show/books, which I think caused part of the outrage. Also, as mentioned above, the creators claimed it wasn't rape, so that didn't help.

[suralin]

oh wow can't believe I hadn't thought of this but totally shipping dailybarley / barleygrind

Tragically I don't think we'd have time for each other we're too busy caring for our plants.

that is indeed tragic DG is cool af and p JACKED

[WinterComing]

How exactly do you think it was completely incongruous with Jamie's character? He pushed a 10 year-old boy out of a window to what Jaime intended to be his death in the first episode. We do see a much more compassionate side of Jaime when Catelyn Stark releases him and he travels back to King's Landing with Brienne, but he does seem to me to have some serious narcissistic and sociopathic tendencies. I really wasn't that surprised at all by the rape scene.

You don't understand Jaime at all. Read the books. Or at least read the comment above that tried to explain it in the spoiler.

[darkchildnana]

jeez you guys are active in the morning

to throw my two cents in: I fully agree with Winter. You have to read the books to truly understand Jamie Lannister (and most of the character imho)

[darkchildnana]

great article on the topic: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... pened.html

[suralin]

do you guys read other fantasy

my sci-fi/fantasy thread could use a pick-me-up

[rska884]

jeez you guys are active in the morning

to throw my two cents in: I fully agree with Winter. You have to read the books to truly understand Jamie Lannister (and most of the character imho)

I think the show did a good job with most of the characters... Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Cersei, Catelyn, Baelish (and many others) all were solidly portrayed in terms of their driving motivations. There are a handful of arcs (mostly in the last season) where I think they missed the point - Jaime and Sansa being the biggest failures, IMO. But I can't blame someone who hasn't read the books for missing where those arcs failed in the show, I can only try to explain where I'm coming from.

I don't think it's really that important for show watchers to read the books (although I recommend it), so I don't mind when people are confused by stuff like that.

[GFox345]

I really just don't understand why people get so worked up about the rape scene. I mean Game of Thrones is full beyond measure of murder, torture, and just general human suffering. Rape is awful, but in the context of Game of Thrones, it seems almost innocuous by comparison.

You're missing the point. The reason that scene was so awful wasn't just that it was a rape but that it was completely incongruous with Jaime's character and ruined what was a really a more interesting scene in the book.

I was addressing it from the perspective of the morally outraged audience - the crowd that said "I'm done with Game of Thrones" because of the rape scene. That seems ridiculous to me.

On the Jaime point:

How exactly do you think it was completely incongruous with Jamie's character? He pushed a 10 year-old boy out of a window to what Jaime intended to be his death in the first episode. We do see a much more compassionate side of Jaime when Catelyn Stark releases him and he travels back to King's Landing with Brienne, but he does seem to me to have some serious narcissistic and sociopathic tendencies. I really wasn't that surprised at all by the rape scene.

I just posted something a little more in depth on this - just my thoughts. Let me know what you think.

Also, for the morally outraged side, I think I touched on it in my post above - I think there's something to be said about the failure specifically of this scene (and of the similar one last season with two different characters) to work as world-building or character-building. For me, these two felt more specifically like shock value inclusions than other morally lacking scenes in the show/books, which I think caused part of the outrage. Also, as mentioned above, the creators claimed it wasn't rape, so that didn't help.

Apologies. This thread moves too quickly for me as well. I have not read any of the books, so your perspective is interesting. Unfortunately, I can't make much of a knowledgeable comment on it because, well, I haven't read the books.

I do think it is a bit of a stretch so say that the rape scene had no artistic merit or value, and I really feel like a robust dialogue on the subject is largely prevented by the fact that rape and sexual assault are modern "hot" (maybe a poor choice of words) topics in social discourse right now. No one can really maintain the opposite position without being immediately labeled as a monster.

I do disagree with the idea that it is grimdark for its own sake. That scene, however you feel about it, was the breaking point for Jaime. He clearly has a very strong love for his sister and missed her very much while he was a prisoner of war and during his long journey back to King's Landing. However, he comes back to find that things have changed. Cersei is angry at him for leaving in the first place, being captured, and getting himself seriously hurt. I recall a scene in which Cersei says something like "You come back after X amount of time missing a hand and you expect everything to be the same." (I know I butchered it, but that's the gist).

I get the impression (again I haven't read the books) that the idea of getting back to Cersei is what kept Jaime going while he was a prisoner of war for months. He killed (or intended to kill) a 10 year-old boy for Cersei and murdered his own cousin in an attempt to liberate himself. He has played a role in his children's lives that is surely very far-removed from what any father would want to protect the family reputation. And after all he has done, Cersei is cold and hostile toward him.

I am not saying that I think that Jaime's decision to rape Cersei was justified. It wasn't, but to say that it didn't fit into his character arch or into the story line of the SHOW is clearly wrong in my opinion. There they are, standing over the body of their oldest son who was murdered, and their relationship has been so strained by the circumstances that I just described. Jaime is desperate for Cersei, and finally he just acted without regard for what Cersei wanted. AGAIN I am not saying that this was RIGHT or Justified. But we can at least understand Jaime's decision, even if we condemn it.

Where that takes his character, I am really not sure. His development has definitely slowed since then.

[pdevastey]

jeez you guys are active in the morning

to throw my two cents in: I fully agree with Winter. You have to read the books to truly understand Jamie Lannister (and most of the character imho)

isn't that problematic because the two things are separate and different universes. I think using the books to say someone cannot fully understand an element of the show is faulty. That is either a failure of the show or they are actually two different stories that are similar with different writers.

[darkchildnana]

jeez you guys are active in the morning

to throw my two cents in: I fully agree with Winter. You have to read the books to truly understand Jamie Lannister (and most of the character imho)

isn't that problematic because the two things are separate and different universes. I think using the books to say someone cannot fully understand an element of the show is faulty. That is either a failure of the show or they are actually two different stories that are similar with different writers.

I think its a failure of the show actually. Exhibit A being the rape scene - in the books Cersei gives in because she gets turned on and she wants him. In the show, the director or writers failed to show that (not sure if it was on purpose or an accident). I think its impossible to fit everything from the books into an hour a week, so a lot gets lost.

[pdevastey]

I agree fox

[GFox345]

How exactly do you think it was completely incongruous with Jamie's character? He pushed a 10 year-old boy out of a window to what Jaime intended to be his death in the first episode. We do see a much more compassionate side of Jaime when Catelyn Stark releases him and he travels back to King's Landing with Brienne, but he does seem to me to have some serious narcissistic and sociopathic tendencies. I really wasn't that surprised at all by the rape scene.

You don't understand Jaime at all. Read the books. Or at least read the comment above that tried to explain it in the spoiler.

I did read the comment. I tried to explain my own thoughts below. The fact of the matter is that the show is based on the books. The show is not the books. I really think it is a lame argument to say that you can't just talk about the show itself and have a full dialogue about it. The show develops Jaime as a character in its own way, and the show is a piece of art that is distinct from the books. I don't see how you can refer to a different piece of art and say that my knowledge is inherently incomplete if I don't also read the books.

[WinterComing]

jeez you guys are active in the morning

to throw my two cents in: I fully agree with Winter. You have to read the books to truly understand Jamie Lannister (and most of the character imho)

isn't that problematic because the two things are separate and different universes. I think using the books to say someone cannot fully understand an element of the show is faulty. That is either a failure of the show or they are actually two different stories that are similar with different writers.

I think specifically what we're saying is that it's a failure of the show.

In the books, Jaime goes through hell to get back to Cersei and they have consensual sex, but ultimately the experience is hollow for Jaime and it's a turning point in his coming to realize that Cersei is a terrible person. This serves to make Jaime one of the book's more complex characters, and this in addition to later events ultimately redeems him in the eyes of most readers (including this one).

But in the show, Jaime goes through hell to get back to Cersei and then rapes her. This makes it impossible for the development that follows in the books to follow in the shows.