Michigan Law School C/O 2019 Forum

[James.K.Polk]

Long time listener, first time caller here.

I heard from someone that 1L's will be able to pick a class for the first time starting next year. Can anyone confirm if this is true? Any current students, or maybe someone who went to the ASW, might know.

My tour guide told me this at ASW, if that counts as confirmation.

[ERT]

As I recall, due to fewer mandatory 1L classes, beginning with your incoming class, 1Ls will now select a 3 or 4 credit elective during 1L winter semester. Previously, I think you had the option to take a 1 or 2 credit elective during 1L winter semester, but very few students did (since it was in addition to an already full course load).

[birdstheword]

Long time listener, first time caller here.

I heard from someone that 1L's will be able to pick a class for the first time starting next year. Can anyone confirm if this is true? Any current students, or maybe someone who went to the ASW, might know.

My understanding (per one of the profs on the committee) is that they're removing the single mandatory "international law" class and allowing students to choose one of several / many globally themed courses to satisfy that requirement, I believe just by the time they graduate. That frees up one slot.

[Vexed]

Thanks for giving us a healthy dose of reality. I think what you said definitely seems more realistic to me. In regards to bidding NYC, that seems to be the advice given to everyone at median or below, do you know if people at OCI struck out because they had poor bidding strategy, or just that they struck out even bidding completely NYC?

I saw people strike out at OCI with both strategies. It seemed like of the group that bid intelligently and struck out, the higher their grades were the faster they tended to secure some sort of employment when fighting for a job post-OCI. I know of a few people just around median that missed getting an offer out of OCI but snagged places like Delaware in the month or so after; I also know of people that didn't really find anything until this semester.

I'll also just relay some general advice that I've given to a few people that have PM'd me about some of the things I mentioned in my last post, particularly my last bit about being unsure if I'd attend Mich again if given the chance:

For one, if you've got a particular biglaw market that you're fairly sure you want to work in, I think, just looking at it purely from an employment #'s perspective, in many instances it is very hard to justify Michigan. For just about every major non-NYC market - Chicago, DC, LA, SF - there is another T14 or even T20-30 school(s) that will regularly place a higher percentage of its class into biglaw positions in that market. If you're somebody that's coming in a little bit more undecided but looking for a school with a "national" reach to have options for yourself, I think it's easy to look at Michigan's placement map and be enticed, but I think that prospect is somewhat illusory. I think as a prospective student you can only reasonably assume that you'll end up with median grades (it might even be better to assume worse). And as I mentioned in my prior post, if that happens to you at Mich, your options at OCI won't really be "national" in reach. And even if you do end up above median and in range for firms in these markets, in many instances you'll still need prior ties anyways. Finally, if you're the realistic type of person that comes to Michigan intent on biglaw and understanding that means you'll likely be working in NYC, the question really is... what advantage is there to Michigan? If you're intent on NYC/biglaw, comparable T14 schools like Penn, Virginia, Duke, and Cornell all send larger %'s of their classes to NYC and into biglaw/fedclerks generally. The closest school to our biglaw placement numbers, statistically, is Georgetown. Really, Michigan lays no claim to top placement outcomes in any of the biglaw markets relative to its peer schools.

The other thing I'd point out is that I think that one of the biggest appeals of Mich - Ann Arbor - is both a blessing and a curse. Most students love the campus (myself included), but the fact of the matter is that the locale is less than ideal from a networking/employment perspective. Yes, alums do regularly come to town for various talks/meetings/events but, keep in mind, this is very much based on who is willing to travel to A2 during the year. If you're one of the unlucky souls that strikes out and ends up scrambling for a job for whatever reason, you'll hear a common piece of advice: "network and hustle". Generally this means reaching out to alums to chat or get coffee, going to various bar events, taking up in-year internships that might lead to employment or networking opportunities... all of these things are feasible, but are much more difficult in Ann Arbor relative to other schools based purely on locale. I think the school actually does a fairly decent job trying to establish networking events for its students, but based on my experience knowing students that have struggled here and knowing friends/colleagues who struggled at other schools in/near larger cities, it just seems like there is a locational advantage that helps those students rebound more easily than Michigan might. I suspect it might play into Michigan's overall employment numbers (and I suppose the larger TLS rhetoric of tying Michigan's "demise" to the fall of Detroit).

All that being said I think there are perfectly good reasons to pick Michigan when you factor in things like financial aid / Darrow, other offers, etc. Like I mentioned in my other post, you can probably get a biglaw job if you come here. It's just that such an outcome is by no means a certainty even for a median student, and if you're coming here intent on working in biglaw or have a particular market, there is almost always a school that offers better outcomes for you.

[shineoncrazydiamond]

Vexed, thanks for the insights! In your experience, how have people fared (at, below, above median) for employment in PI and bigfed?

[tsujimoto74]

Vexed, thanks for the insights! In your experience, how have people fared (at, below, above median) for employment in PI and bigfed?

Also curious about this.

[Emperor of Ice-Cream]

To say that "there's almost always a better outcome at a different school" is absurd. Even students at HLS struggle to get the job they want in the market they want, and many have to stoop to bid on NYC firms.

My experience as a 2L is quite a bit different than Vexed's. Lots of my friends are going to good firms in Chicago, SF, and LA—some with no or very limited ties. And lots of folks who didn't do OCI—about 15-20% of the class—are going all over the country for PI and government work (they can do this because of Michigan's excellent LRAP and PI support).

I really don't know what you expect. Michigan isn't Harvard or Yale, no, and you might have a tough time getting a job in Austin or Denver, just like every other law student in America. Cornell and Penn might be better if you know you only want NYC BL. And Berkeley might also be better for PI or California. Same with NU for Chicago.

But no T7-14 law school places more students in more markets and different practice areas than Michigan does, and its numbers are only getting better after it cut the class size and changed the artificially-low curve.

[Aeon]

Long time listener, first time caller here.

I heard from someone that 1L's will be able to pick a class for the first time starting next year. Can anyone confirm if this is true? Any current students, or maybe someone who went to the ASW, might know.

My tour guide told me this at ASW, if that counts as confirmation.

This is correct, they changed it for those entering law school this year. See the top of page 2 of: http://www.law.umich.edu/currentstudent ... ements.pdf.

[Oskosh]

Got offered $20k a year by Michigan for a grand total of 60k. -____________- More than likely withdrawing unless they raise their offer in negotiations.

[blind squirrel]

Long time listener, first time caller here.

I heard from someone that 1L's will be able to pick a class for the first time starting next year. Can anyone confirm if this is true? Any current students, or maybe someone who went to the ASW, might know.

My tour guide told me this at ASW, if that counts as confirmation.

This is correct, they changed it for those entering law school this year. See the top of page 2 of: http://www.law.umich.edu/currentstudent ... ements.pdf.

Great, thanks so much guys! That's a big selling point for me

[Generally]

Improvement with employment numbers, ~60% Biglaw/Fedclerk, but that is still a good bit lower than peers...

[zozo1717]

Improvement with employment numbers, ~60% Biglaw/Fedclerk, but that is still a good bit lower than peers...

I think this is their last "big" class (they had 350+ grads). I assume the smaller classes should perform more in line with their peers..but won't know until next year

[James.K.Polk]

Improvement with employment numbers, ~60% Biglaw/Fedclerk, but that is still a good bit lower than peers...

I think this is their last "big" class (they had 350+ grads). I assume the smaller classes should perform more in line with their peers..but won't know until next year

They said they expected 300+ again this year, so it can't be that different. I don't know. This doesn't scare me away from Michigan but I wish the numbers were up a little more...

[tappatappatappa]

Post removed...

[ycai]

Improvement with employment numbers, ~60% Biglaw/Fedclerk, but that is still a good bit lower than peers...

I think this is their last "big" class (they had 350+ grads). I assume the smaller classes should perform more in line with their peers..but won't know until next year

They said they expected 300+ again this year, so it can't be that different. I don't know. This doesn't scare me away from Michigan but I wish the numbers were up a little more...

Who said that they expected 300+??

Ditto??!!

[James.K.Polk]

Improvement with employment numbers, ~60% Biglaw/Fedclerk, but that is still a good bit lower than peers...

I think this is their last "big" class (they had 350+ grads). I assume the smaller classes should perform more in line with their peers..but won't know until next year

They said they expected 300+ again this year, so it can't be that different. I don't know. This doesn't scare me away from Michigan but I wish the numbers were up a little more...

Who said that they expected 300+??

Ditto??!!

Honestly, TLS. It was a post a while ago, someone had talked to an AO. I'll try and dig through later, currently visiting a school that begins with V

[RZ5646]

Improvement with employment numbers, ~60% Biglaw/Fedclerk, but that is still a good bit lower than peers...

I think this is their last "big" class (they had 350+ grads). I assume the smaller classes should perform more in line with their peers..but won't know until next year

They said they expected 300+ again this year, so it can't be that different. I don't know. This doesn't scare me away from Michigan but I wish the numbers were up a little more...

This worries me. I've been trying to rationalize Michigan to myself by saying that their new, small class size indicates less competition, better access to resources, and a focus on quality over quantity in general.

[herecomesthesun]

Michigan is my dream school. I'm visiting Northwestern right now and don't love the feel. But I don't want to screw myself in terms of employment.

[jnwa]

TBH the numbers look fine. This years BL+FC numbers are basically what Berkeleys were last year. Someone posted the numbers in the 2015 employment thread but Mich has the really high PI+Gov numbers. HYSCCN give you better a better shot at BL+FC for sure, maybe even Penn. But im pretty sure youll do relatively the same on the job hunt with Mich UVA or Berkeley on your resume. The only only knock on Mich would be the lack of a home market that someone mentioned earlier. So if youre targeting Chicago for example NW might make more sense all things being equal.

[James.K.Polk]

Improvement with employment numbers, ~60% Biglaw/Fedclerk, but that is still a good bit lower than peers...

I think this is their last "big" class (they had 350+ grads). I assume the smaller classes should perform more in line with their peers..but won't know until next year

They said they expected 300+ again this year, so it can't be that different. I don't know. This doesn't scare me away from Michigan but I wish the numbers were up a little more...

Who said that they expected 300+??

Ditto??!!

Check page 10 of this thread.

Edit: Okay page 10 is basically this all over again, and I just kept it in my head. That said, offhandedly I was advised by the admissions office that the boost in rankings may lead to larger enrollment. Not necessarily 300.

[herecomesthesun]

TBH the numbers look fine. This years BL+FC numbers are basically what Berkeleys were last year. Someone posted the numbers in the 2015 employment thread but Mich has the really high PI+Gov numbers. HYSCCN give you better a better shot at BL+FC for sure, maybe even Penn. But im pretty sure youll do relatively the same on the job hunt with Mich UVA or Berkeley on your resume. The only only knock on Mich would be the lack of a home market that someone mentioned earlier. So if youre targeting Chicago for example NW might make more sense all things being equal.

Yeah I'm not specifically targeting Chicago. I like it and could see myself here but it's not my top choice (besides DC, I don't really have a super strong preference.

[Emperor of Ice-Cream]

Also, FWIW, 2015 was the last class to do OCI at the Holiday Inn. Now OCI is at the Lawyers Club, so having recruiting attorneys in the Quad in August doubtless helps present and future students.

[Generally]

Improvement with employment numbers, ~60% Biglaw/Fedclerk, but that is still a good bit lower than peers...

I think this is their last "big" class (they had 350+ grads). I assume the smaller classes should perform more in line with their peers..but won't know until next year

They said they expected 300+ again this year, so it can't be that different. I don't know. This doesn't scare me away from Michigan but I wish the numbers were up a little more...

This worries me. I've been trying to rationalize Michigan to myself by saying that their new, small class size indicates less competition, better access to resources, and a focus on quality over quantity in general.

I mean this is still a pretty decent sized class compared to the 270 they has last year. I would count on the numbers getting higher each year, but I think this class will be more than 270, around 300 I think, based on talks I have had. Still that will be better than the upper 300s they have had in recent employment numbers.

[miku015]

Improvement with employment numbers, ~60% Biglaw/Fedclerk, but that is still a good bit lower than peers...

I think this is their last "big" class (they had 350+ grads). I assume the smaller classes should perform more in line with their peers..but won't know until next year

They said they expected 300+ again this year, so it can't be that different. I don't know. This doesn't scare me away from Michigan but I wish the numbers were up a little more...

This worries me. I've been trying to rationalize Michigan to myself by saying that their new, small class size indicates less competition, better access to resources, and a focus on quality over quantity in general.

I mean this is still a pretty decent sized class compared to the 270 they has last year. I would count on the numbers getting higher each year, but I think this class will be more than 270, around 300 I think, based on talks I have had. Still that will be better than the upper 300s they have had in recent employment numbers.

If they really want to increase class size simply because their ranking went back up like 1 step I will have lost all respect for the school. Especially since their employment numbers are still far behind its peers.

In the employment thread someone posted the raw #s of Michigan's BL+FC numbers and it was remarkably consistent throughout the years (210~220). If that # stays the same and we drop to ~320, we'd still only be looking at about 66% Bl+FC, still below its peers which are all hovering around 70~75%. If Michigan stays with the 270~ number though, we'd be looking at 75+%, which would make it fall much more in line with its peers. Of course, this is assuming firms actually have a target # of recruits from each school and they won't simply start taking less Mich grads.

I hope Michigan saw some strong numbers from OCI last year to justify increasing class size again, otherwise I'm not sure what Michigan is thinking...

[gazorpazorp]

Any word on what tuition will be for the 2016-17 year? I know it won't be too far off from 2015-16 but I'm trying to be as thorough as possible in my COA estimates between schools...