Michigan Law School C/O 2019 Forum

[herecomesthesun]

Michigan's ASW was absolutely fantastic. I fell in love with Ann Arbor, the school, current and future classmates, etc. They've only given me half tuition, as opposed to NU's $150k offer. I'm hoping they'll offer to bump it up, but if not, I'm sort of wondering if the debt will be worth it. With COL in Chicago, the debt will still be somewhat equitable. My goal is biglaw.

[tvu]

Does our complete financial award appear under the personal award info tab?

[IcarusOnWheels]

Michigan's ASW was absolutely fantastic. I fell in love with Ann Arbor, the school, current and future classmates, etc. They've only given me half tuition, as opposed to NU's $150k offer. I'm hoping they'll offer to bump it up, but if not, I'm sort of wondering if the debt will be worth it. With COL in Chicago, the debt will still be somewhat equitable. My goal is biglaw.

I'm in a similar position. 150k from NU and 90k from Michigan. Are you sending them an email hoping they will reconsider? I did an analysis using the schools cost of living estimates (adjusting to account only for similar expenses in addition to taking into account annual tuition increases, out of state v. in state, etc.) and NU ends up being significantly cheaper even with the COL. I was hoping to try and see if Michigan would up their offer.

[RZ5646]

Michigan's ASW was absolutely fantastic. I fell in love with Ann Arbor, the school, current and future classmates, etc. They've only given me half tuition, as opposed to NU's $150k offer. I'm hoping they'll offer to bump it up, but if not, I'm sort of wondering if the debt will be worth it. With COL in Chicago, the debt will still be somewhat equitable. My goal is biglaw.

Biglaw where? If Chicago, then definitely go to Northwestern.

[herecomesthesun]

Michigan's ASW was absolutely fantastic. I fell in love with Ann Arbor, the school, current and future classmates, etc. They've only given me half tuition, as opposed to NU's $150k offer. I'm hoping they'll offer to bump it up, but if not, I'm sort of wondering if the debt will be worth it. With COL in Chicago, the debt will still be somewhat equitable. My goal is biglaw.

Biglaw where? If Chicago, then definitely go to Northwestern.

Likely not Chicago--I hadn't really considered it as a place I'd want to end up. Biglaw likely in DC/West Coast/Boston. Wouldn't hate NYC I guess. Chicago wouldn't be awful though.

[James.K.Polk]

Michigan's ASW was absolutely fantastic. I fell in love with Ann Arbor, the school, current and future classmates, etc. They've only given me half tuition, as opposed to NU's $150k offer. I'm hoping they'll offer to bump it up, but if not, I'm sort of wondering if the debt will be worth it. With COL in Chicago, the debt will still be somewhat equitable. My goal is biglaw.

Biglaw where? If Chicago, then definitely go to Northwestern.

Likely not Chicago--I hadn't really considered it as a place I'd want to end up. Biglaw likely in DC/West Coast/Boston. Wouldn't hate NYC I guess. Chicago wouldn't be awful though.

Is Boston a viable big law market, especially with an IP/patent slant? That'd be awesome...

[herecomesthesun]

Michigan's ASW was absolutely fantastic. I fell in love with Ann Arbor, the school, current and future classmates, etc. They've only given me half tuition, as opposed to NU's $150k offer. I'm hoping they'll offer to bump it up, but if not, I'm sort of wondering if the debt will be worth it. With COL in Chicago, the debt will still be somewhat equitable. My goal is biglaw.

Biglaw where? If Chicago, then definitely go to Northwestern.

Likely not Chicago--I hadn't really considered it as a place I'd want to end up. Biglaw likely in DC/West Coast/Boston. Wouldn't hate NYC I guess. Chicago wouldn't be awful though.

Is Boston a viable big law market, especially with an IP/patent slant? That'd be awesome...

No clue on IP/patent but I know Boston does have a biglaw market. It's just one of the tougher/ties-based ones to break into.

[threatlevelmidnight]

Michigan's ASW was absolutely fantastic. I fell in love with Ann Arbor, the school, current and future classmates, etc. They've only given me half tuition, as opposed to NU's $150k offer. I'm hoping they'll offer to bump it up, but if not, I'm sort of wondering if the debt will be worth it. With COL in Chicago, the debt will still be somewhat equitable. My goal is biglaw.

Biglaw where? If Chicago, then definitely go to Northwestern.

Likely not Chicago--I hadn't really considered it as a place I'd want to end up. Biglaw likely in DC/West Coast/Boston. Wouldn't hate NYC I guess. Chicago wouldn't be awful though.

Is Boston a viable big law market, especially with an IP/patent slant? That'd be awesome...

No clue on IP/patent but I know Boston does have a biglaw market. It's just one of the tougher/ties-based ones to break into.

Having lived in Boston and had most of my law-oriented friends go to law school in Boston, I can tell you it is slightly harder to break into the market here. Many firms largely hire grads from Boston schools, because many of them went to school in Boston themselves. However, that might be different depending on what firm you're looking at. I went to the Michigan reception in Boston and many of the alumni were crowded into similar firms, like Fish & Richardson. 10% of the partners at that firm were Michigan grads, so you probably wouldn't have trouble getting a job there.

[miku015]

Anyone else impatiently waiting for the 2015 employment numbers? They spun the numbers pretty hard at ASW and made very strong statements (everyone gets a clerkship, everyone I know that wanted big law got it, etc.), so I'm curious to see if the numbers are actually better this year. Class of 2015 is the last of the "big" sized classes right?

[herecomesthesun]

Anyone else impatiently waiting for the 2015 employment numbers? They spun the numbers pretty hard at ASW and made very strong statements (everyone gets a clerkship, everyone I know that wanted big law got it, etc.), so I'm curious to see if the numbers are actually better this year. Class of 2015 is the last of the "big" sized classes right?

I believe the bit on big-law at least, and as I don't know much about clerkships, that one I was more skeptical on. I did hear that 2015 was the last of the bigger ones.

[zozo1717]

Anyone else impatiently waiting for the 2015 employment numbers? They spun the numbers pretty hard at ASW and made very strong statements (everyone gets a clerkship, everyone I know that wanted big law got it, etc.), so I'm curious to see if the numbers are actually better this year. Class of 2015 is the last of the "big" sized classes right?

I believe the bit on big-law at least, and as I don't know much about clerkships, that one I was more skeptical on. I did hear that 2015 was the last of the bigger ones.

They were counting ALL clerkships (Federal + State + other judges, magistrates), so what LST reports will be somewhat lower than their number. I believe them in the sense that if you REALLY want a clerkship there is probably something - but not necessarily a federal one, etc.

[herecomesthesun]

Anyone else impatiently waiting for the 2015 employment numbers? They spun the numbers pretty hard at ASW and made very strong statements (everyone gets a clerkship, everyone I know that wanted big law got it, etc.), so I'm curious to see if the numbers are actually better this year. Class of 2015 is the last of the "big" sized classes right?

I believe the bit on big-law at least, and as I don't know much about clerkships, that one I was more skeptical on. I did hear that 2015 was the last of the bigger ones.

They were counting ALL clerkships (Federal + State + other judges, magistrates), so what LST reports will be somewhat lower than their number. I believe them in the sense that if you REALLY want a clerkship there is probably something - but not necessarily a federal one, etc.

I'd agree with this. That was my sense from the information given.

[PrayFor170]

Check in!
Any summer starters? It's scary my 1L is gonna start in less than two months.

[shineoncrazydiamond]

.

[basedvulpes]

Post removed.

[herecomesthesun]

Bought a Michigan shirt this weekend, next step is to change my relationship status on facebook

That's gonna come shortly!

[jnwa]

Anyone else impatiently waiting for the 2015 employment numbers? They spun the numbers pretty hard at ASW and made very strong statements (everyone gets a clerkship, everyone I know that wanted big law got it, etc.), so I'm curious to see if the numbers are actually better this year. Class of 2015 is the last of the "big" sized classes right?

I went to the first preview and the number they gave was 97% employment and 80% of people at OCI's got at least 1 offer. They also said that among people who were in the bottom half of the class 92% were employed 75% got Amlaw 200 offers at OCI.

The 2014 LST numbers say the employment was 90% and the biglaw placement seemed a lot worse. Im gunna be attending regardless but itll be great to see their numbers shoot up.

[miku015]

I'd say we should be cautious of that 97% employment rate, that's most definitely the overall employment # rather than the legal full-time bar required #. If you count total employed, class of 2014 had 374/390 employed or 96% so I'm not banking on a huge jump on LST yet.

Also regarding the other statistic, I'm pretty sure it's 'of those in the bottom half of the class, those that DID find big law jobs (as in not PI, not unemployed, not gov't etc.), 75% of them ended up in Amlaw 200 firms.' If 75% of the entire bottom half of the class found big law jobs, their employment #s would look very diff (unless everyone in top half went PI I guess). I love Michigan and all, but let's not get misled by spin, we should be walking into this with eyes wide open.

I also loved how the guy said that because everyone eventually found a position for the summer, nobody got "no-offered" at OCI...spin master.

[jnwa]

I'd say we should be cautious of that 97% employment rate, that's most definitely the overall employment # rather than the legal full-time bar required #. If you count total employed, class of 2014 had 374/390 employed or 96% so I'm not banking on a huge jump on LST yet.

Also regarding the other statistic, I'm pretty sure it's 'of those in the bottom half of the class, those that DID find big law jobs (as in not PI, not unemployed, not gov't etc.), 75% of them ended up in Amlaw 200 firms.' If 75% of the entire bottom half of the class found big law jobs, their employment #s would look very diff (unless everyone in top half went PI I guess). I love Michigan and all, but let's not get misled by spin, we should be walking into this with eyes wide open.

I also loved how the guy said that because everyone eventually found a position for the summer, nobody got "no-offered" at OCI...spin master.

I thought the LST number was overall employment but good catch. Preview is a ton of spin. The only factor is see changing things a little would be the smaller class sizes. The only number i really cared about was the oci rate. Just looking at the biglaw+fed clerk numbers makes it look like a 50/50 proposition, hopefully thats not the case.

[Vexed]

Anyone else impatiently waiting for the 2015 employment numbers? They spun the numbers pretty hard at ASW and made very strong statements (everyone gets a clerkship, everyone I know that wanted big law got it, etc.), so I'm curious to see if the numbers are actually better this year. Class of 2015 is the last of the "big" sized classes right?

As a current 2L, I can tell you this particular bit is bogus. I know multiple people who wanted biglaw and did not get it. The "80% of those at OCI got at least 1 offer" number sounds feasible I guess, but I really don't find that particularly impressive, given what that really says is that 1/5 of students that show up to our OCI won't get jobs out of it. Obviously there are a lot of people that are successful in securing employment, but the type of people that volunteer to talk at ASW are typical striver types and "everyone they know" typically are of that ilk. Yes, people with top grades at Michigan typically do well. But those at median and below can definitely struggle.

Look, there's a good chance you'll get a job if you come to Michigan but I wouldn't sugarcoat it, there are definitely people that came here with aspirations of biglaw that did not secure a SA and are making pretty far below market this summer. There's also a lot of people that have jobs that are not necessarily jobs that they wanted initially, and they were scrambling for a while to get them. There's a decent amount of people that are not necessarily in the market they wanted to be in as well.

If I had to give advice to live by when considering Michigan and its employment outcomes as a prospective student, you should know that if you want biglaw out of OCI here you should come in being 100% okay with that meaning you need to work in NYC. I know that all of OCP's fancy maps give decent sized placement percentages for all kinds of states, but the reality is that NYC is really the only market a median student will have a comfortable amount of firms to bid on that they'll be in range for. I know you would think that we're a midwest school and thus we'd place well in Chicago, and while we do okay, the firms that show up to OCI generally have cutoffs above median, some well-above median. The same definitely goes for SF and LA as well. If you're somebody who is 100% committed to one of those markets, you should know that if you end up at median or below you may very well be facing an OCI where you do not have enough firms to realistically bid on in your target market.

I'd also say that as a general rule - and I think this applicable to law school generally- I'd heavily reconsider coming in as a K-JD. It seems like most of the people I knew who struggled or were disappointed in the process were K-JDs.

I'm someone that has a biglaw SA lined up, but I don't know if given the chance to choose again I'd have ended up at Michigan tbh. It's a fine school, but I think its got its flaws in ways that I didn't really think about when I was coming in as a prospective student.

[Emperor of Ice-Cream]

Anyone else impatiently waiting for the 2015 employment numbers? They spun the numbers pretty hard at ASW and made very strong statements (everyone gets a clerkship, everyone I know that wanted big law got it, etc.), so I'm curious to see if the numbers are actually better this year. Class of 2015 is the last of the "big" sized classes right?


As a current 2L, I can tell you this particular bit is bogus.

If you were a K-JD who thought you were going to get Denver or Seattle or Austin, then I'm sure you were going to be disappointed no matter where you went to school. But my experience was that most people who dressed well, interviewed well, and bid smartly (i.e., NYC if you had mediocre grades and wanted BL) did very well at OCI last year. People with ties to non-NYC major markets (LA, Chicago) also did very well. I'm sure the outcomes were more or less the same at any non-HYS law school.

EDIT: that sounded harsher than I meant it to. I just mean that Vexed criticisms don't seem particular to M. I agree that K-JD is not usually a great plan, and all law students who want BL should be reconciled to working in NYC.

[jewkidontheblock]

Anyone else impatiently waiting for the 2015 employment numbers? They spun the numbers pretty hard at ASW and made very strong statements (everyone gets a clerkship, everyone I know that wanted big law got it, etc.), so I'm curious to see if the numbers are actually better this year. Class of 2015 is the last of the "big" sized classes right?

The "80% of those at OCI got at least 1 offer" number sounds feasible I guess, but I really don't find that particularly impressive, given what that really says is that 1/5 of students that show up to our OCI won't get jobs out of it.

I pressed them on that number, and just to clarify, it's that 80% of those who showed up to OCI wound up with a big law offer. This does not mean that 80% of those who showed up to OCI got jobs through OCI. I'm not sure what the breakdown is, but this number includes 3L hiring and mass mailing as well.

[chrisharrison]

Where do summer starters live usually? Sub-let? The Lawyers club is closed during the summer right?

[miku015]

Anyone else impatiently waiting for the 2015 employment numbers? They spun the numbers pretty hard at ASW and made very strong statements (everyone gets a clerkship, everyone I know that wanted big law got it, etc.), so I'm curious to see if the numbers are actually better this year. Class of 2015 is the last of the "big" sized classes right?

As a current 2L, I can tell you this particular bit is bogus. I know multiple people who wanted biglaw and did not get it. The "80% of those at OCI got at least 1 offer" number sounds feasible I guess, but I really don't find that particularly impressive, given what that really says is that 1/5 of students that show up to our OCI won't get jobs out of it. Obviously there are a lot of people that are successful in securing employment, but the type of people that volunteer to talk at ASW are typical striver types and "everyone they know" typically are of that ilk. Yes, people with top grades at Michigan typically do well. But those at median and below can definitely struggle.

Look, there's a good chance you'll get a job if you come to Michigan but I wouldn't sugarcoat it, there are definitely people that came here with aspirations of biglaw that did not secure a SA and are making pretty far below market this summer. There's also a lot of people that have jobs that are not necessarily jobs that they wanted initially, and they were scrambling for a while to get them. There's a decent amount of people that are not necessarily in the market they wanted to be in as well.

If I had to give advice to live by when considering Michigan and its employment outcomes as a prospective student, you should know that if you want biglaw out of OCI here you should come in being 100% okay with that meaning you need to work in NYC. I know that all of OCP's fancy maps give decent sized placement percentages for all kinds of states, but the reality is that NYC is really the only market a median student will have a comfortable amount of firms to bid on that they'll be in range for. I know you would think that we're a midwest school and thus we'd place well in Chicago, and while we do okay, the firms that show up to OCI generally have cutoffs above median, some well-above median. The same definitely goes for SF and LA as well. If you're somebody who is 100% committed to one of those markets, you should know that if you end up at median or below you may very well be facing an OCI where you do not have enough firms to realistically bid on in your target market.

I'd also say that as a general rule - and I think this applicable to law school generally- I'd heavily reconsider coming in as a K-JD. It seems like most of the people I knew who struggled or were disappointed in the process were K-JDs.

I'm someone that has a biglaw SA lined up, but I don't know if given the chance to choose again I'd have ended up at Michigan tbh. It's a fine school, but I think its got its flaws in ways that I didn't really think about when I was coming in as a prospective student.

Thanks for giving us a healthy dose of reality. I think what you said definitely seems more realistic to me. In regards to bidding NYC, that seems to be the advice given to everyone at median or below, do you know if people at OCI struck out because they had poor bidding strategy, or just that they struck out even bidding completely NYC?

[blind squirrel]

Long time listener, first time caller here.

I heard from someone that 1L's will be able to pick a class for the first time starting next year. Can anyone confirm if this is true? Any current students, or maybe someone who went to the ASW, might know.