Columbia Class of 2018 Forum

[DK21]

so i didn't turn in any forms because there was no way i would qualify for need aid, turning in my parents' information - worth it to ask them if they are still accepting applications, given the above information about how it's not strictly need-based?

why would you accept aid money you don't need? have your parents pay, let columbia give to some poor person who doesn't have rich parents to pay.

It doesn't really work like that. If someone doesn't take money it's not like you then know that money will go to someone else.

[Clemenceau]

so i didn't turn in any forms because there was no way i would qualify for need aid, turning in my parents' information - worth it to ask them if they are still accepting applications, given the above information about how it's not strictly need-based?

why would you accept aid money you don't need? have your parents pay, let columbia give to some poor person who doesn't have rich parents to pay.

Lol. Rich people didn't get rich by turning down free money.

[curlietop86]

.

[lukewarmest]

so i didn't turn in any forms because there was no way i would qualify for need aid, turning in my parents' information - worth it to ask them if they are still accepting applications, given the above information about how it's not strictly need-based?

why would you accept aid money you don't need? have your parents pay, let columbia give to some poor person who doesn't have rich parents to pay.

It doesn't really work like that. If someone doesn't take money it's not like you then know that money will go to someone else.

[tk17]

Just got an email saying my financial aid application was incomplete (holy shit they want a lot of information). I should have called to check....

[lnick93]

Just got an email saying my financial aid application was incomplete (holy shit they want a lot of information). I should have called to check....

Same thing happened to me. They asked for a very specific piece of information- I guess we should be glad they're being thorough?

[tlsapp2017]

so i didn't turn in any forms because there was no way i would qualify for need aid, turning in my parents' information - worth it to ask them if they are still accepting applications, given the above information about how it's not strictly need-based?

why would you accept aid money you don't need? have your parents pay, let columbia give to some poor person who doesn't have rich parents to pay.

i didn't say i wouldn't qualify - i said i wouldn't qualify based on my parents' information. i'm an older applicant, so i don't love that their information can count against me.

Definitely worth asking! I was in the same situation - I wouldn't qualify for aid based on my parents' income, but my parents also weren't going to pay for my law school education - and I ended up getting a decent amount of money.

[GreenEggs]

I'm amazed how much information needs to be provided and the fact they don't tell you how they want the information sent to them.

[wonka]

I'm amazed how much information needs to be provided and the fact they don't tell you how they want the information sent to them.

especially this. not blown away by columbia's administrative offices.

[DK21]

so i didn't turn in any forms because there was no way i would qualify for need aid, turning in my parents' information - worth it to ask them if they are still accepting applications, given the above information about how it's not strictly need-based?

why would you accept aid money you don't need? have your parents pay, let columbia give to some poor person who doesn't have rich parents to pay.

It doesn't really work like that. If someone doesn't take money it's not like you then know that money will go to someone else.

(probability of poor students getting money when rich students don't get money) > (probability of poor students getting money when rich students get money)

Right, so it's a shame they are offering it I guess, but it is offered. Schools give out more offers than will be accepted, and because of that when someone doesn't take an offer they don't just turn around and offer it to someone else.

[tk17]

I'm amazed how much information needs to be provided and the fact they don't tell you how they want the information sent to them.

especially this. not blown away by columbia's administrative offices.[/quote]

I really don't understand why they need, for example, W2s. They have my fafsa and need access, and I can understand asking for tax returns to make sure that I wasn't lying on my aid application documents, but why do they need my W2? Because they think I'm lying on my tax return?

Not a whole lot of faith in a group of people that have to pass a character and fitness examination before they can enter their chosen profession.

[lukewarmest]

why would you accept aid money you don't need? have your parents pay, let columbia give to some poor person who doesn't have rich parents to pay.

It doesn't really work like that. If someone doesn't take money it's not like you then know that money will go to someone else.

(probability of poor students getting money when rich students don't get money) > (probability of poor students getting money when rich students get money)

Right, so it's a shame they are offering it I guess, but it is offered. Schools give out more offers than will be accepted, and because of that when someone doesn't take an offer they don't just turn around and offer it to someone else.

blah

[tk17]

perhaps not on the margin, but if people who don't need financial aid to attend a law school don't apply for it/accept it as a norm, the law school will redirect its effort to induce people with money towards those that need it, and away from those who don't

If humans could breathe water, real estate in the Great Barrier Reef would be a hot commodity.

[ChemEng1642]

perhaps not on the margin, but if people who don't need financial aid to attend a law school don't apply for it/accept it as a norm, the law school will redirect its effort to induce people with money towards those that need it, and away from those who don't

If humans could breathe water, real estate in the Great Barrier Reef would be a hot commodity.

+1

[Skool]

perhaps not on the margin, but if people who don't need financial aid to attend a law school don't apply for it/accept it as a norm, the law school will redirect its effort to induce people with money towards those that need it, and away from those who don't

If humans could breathe water, real estate in the Great Barrier Reef would be a hot commodity.

+1

Sure, but people can control their actions with respect to the law school game, while no one can control their ability to "breath water."

I really like these sorts of moments because law schools and students probably fancy themselves some kind of liberal/ progressive, but there's not much energy taken in analyzing the role they play in, say, increasing income inequality.

It's really all play or get played, cause it's all in the game.

[tk17]

perhaps not on the margin, but if people who don't need financial aid to attend a law school don't apply for it/accept it as a norm, the law school will redirect its effort to induce people with money towards those that need it, and away from those who don't

If humans could breathe water, real estate in the Great Barrier Reef would be a hot commodity.

+1

Sure, but people can control their actions with respect to the law school game, while no one can control their ability to "breath water."

I really like these sorts of moments because law schools and students probably fancy themselves some kind of liberal/ progressive, but there's not much energy taken in analyzing the role they play in, say, increasing income inequality.

It's really all play or get played, cause it's all in the game.

Let's talk practicalities here.

Is there a massive income inequality problem in the country right now? Yes. Does the current law school system play into and exacerbate that problem? Sure. And are there actual steps that could be taken to help alleviate this effect? Of course. Things like real student loan reform, replacing the criterion "expenditures per student" with "lowest average debt" in the rankings, creating real accreditation standards that penalize schools for shitty post-law school outcomes, etc..

You know what's not effective, helpful, or practical? Whimsically suggesting that it sure would be nice if a large group of people (and institutions) spontaneously decided to start taking actions that are against their own best interest. That shit just doesn't happen. It's basic behavioral economics. And creating hypotheticals based on bullshit presumptions is a waste of time.

So go ahead and pretend like you know something about what I "fancy myself" to be, but that doesn't change the fact that talking about what would happen if all of the people in the world who had money decided they didn't like free money is as worthwhile as talking about what the relative values of marine real estate would be if humans could breathe underwater.

[Skool]

U mad?

Even accepting your underwater probabilities, we can still be scornful, do our best to extract a social price from such people, and at the very least try and build environments where we don't merely give folks a free pass on how they exploit their privelege, no?

Plus, making no judgment about the effectiveness of the proposal, it's a nice reminder that individual action taken in isolation does have a practical effect in other parts of the system. What we as individuals do really does matter (despite our inclination to say something like, if I don't take the money, somebody else will).

So I think the proposal is not as uselessly raised as you suggest, and I think your dismissal does more than just run-over a particular bad idea; it misses and discredits some interesting implications that are worth dwelling on, especially in the hyper priveleged/oblivious/fake progressive law school context.

[GreenEggs]

I'm amazed how much information needs to be provided and the fact they don't tell you how they want the information sent to them.

especially this. not blown away by columbia's administrative offices.

My favorite part is that the forms don't say anywhere don't email. But when you email them, the auto reply says at the bottom don't send your SSN unsecured.

How would I know not to send a PDF containing my SSN to financial aid if no form says don't email....

[DK21]

U mad?

Even accepting your underwater probabilities, we can still be scornful, do our best to extract a social price from such people, and at the very least try and build environments where we don't merely give folks a free pass on how they exploit their privelege, no?

Plus, making no judgment about the effectiveness of the proposal, it's a nice reminder that individual action taken in isolation does have a practical effect in other parts of the system. What we as individuals do really does matter (despite our inclination to say something like, if I don't take the money, somebody else will).

So I think the proposal is not as uselessly raised as you suggest, and I think your dismissal does more than just run-over a particular bad idea; it misses and discredits some interesting implications that are worth dwelling on, especially in the hyper priveleged/oblivious/fake progressive law school context.

I just think expecting students to be the ones driving the change in how aid is given up is wrongheaded. Students are about to go deeply into debt to finance their careers. Will it work out? For many, perhaps even most, yeah sure. But there were enough people who were summer associates headed into the last recession who then had job offers pulled where I really think it's asking a lot of people to pay more than they absolutely have to to attend a good school.

If you think aid is given out in a bad way, that's a fine position (though likely one made with less than full information). If you want to blame someone, don't blame applicants. Blame the schools that have control of the funds. And if you're an applicant who is lucky enough to get offered aid, take it and good luck.

[tk17]

U mad?

Even accepting your underwater probabilities, we can still be scornful, do our best to extract a social price from such people, and at the very least try and build environments where we don't merely give folks a free pass on how they exploit their privelege, no?

First of all, everyone exploits their privilege. I do. You do. Everyone does. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that we should all just accept that some people are more privileged than others and not work to change it, I'm just saying that the concept of exploitation of privilege is so overused that the power of the original meaning is becoming diluted. Everybody who has the opportunity to attend law school has more privilege than most other people in the world. One privileged 0L talking about how they're less privileged than a wealthier 0L rings hollow to me.

Second, I don't believe that scorn is an effective method of causing behavior change. At best, it forces people to hide their thoughts and actions to avoid scorn, but it doesn't actually change the way they think. At worst, in cases like this where people without power are scorning people with power, the scorn is viewed as jealousy and simply ignored.

Plus, making no judgment about the effectiveness of the proposal, it's a nice reminder that individual action taken in isolation does have a practical effect in other parts of the system. What we as individuals do really does matter (despite our inclination to say something like, if I don't take the money, somebody else will).

The whole point of my original comment was to make a judgment about the effectiveness of the proposal. The whole point. Why would you take that away from me?

That being said, I think you're wrong here. One individual turning down their scholarship has little to no effect on the "system." It might have an effect on one or two other people, but it will have no appreciable effect on the system as a whole. If you want to test this, feel free to turn down your scholarships and then let me know in a few months or years what effect your decision had on the way that law schools offer scholarships to incoming students.

So I think the proposal is not as uselessly raised as you suggest, and I think your dismissal does more than just run-over a particular bad idea; it misses and discredits some interesting implications that are worth dwelling on, especially in the hyper priveleged/oblivious/fake progressive law school context.

Sometimes a bad idea is just a bad idea. And I don't get bending over backwards to try to inject some sort of deeper meaning into a poorly-thought-out proposal that was obviously made without any of your "interesting implications" in mind.

[Clemenceau]

I'm amazed how much information needs to be provided and the fact they don't tell you how they want the information sent to them.

especially this. not blown away by columbia's administrative offices.

My favorite part is that the forms don't say anywhere don't email. But when you email them, the auto reply says at the bottom don't send your SSN unsecured.

How would I know not to send a PDF containing my SSN to financial aid if no form says don't email....

What?! How are we supposed to send it?

I literally searched everywhere for where to send it. Faack

[GreenEggs]

I'm amazed how much information needs to be provided and the fact they don't tell you how they want the information sent to them.

especially this. not blown away by columbia's administrative offices.

My favorite part is that the forms don't say anywhere don't email. But when you email them, the auto reply says at the bottom don't send your SSN unsecured.

How would I know not to send a PDF containing my SSN to financial aid if no form says don't email....

What?! How are we supposed to send it?

I literally searched everywhere for where to send it. Faack

No clue... I emailed.

[tk17]

I'm amazed how much information needs to be provided and the fact they don't tell you how they want the information sent to them.

especially this. not blown away by columbia's administrative offices.

My favorite part is that the forms don't say anywhere don't email. But when you email them, the auto reply says at the bottom don't send your SSN unsecured.

How would I know not to send a PDF containing my SSN to financial aid if no form says don't email....

What?! How are we supposed to send it?

I literally searched everywhere for where to send it. Faack

They accept emails, they just recommend not including your SSN. I've been sending pdfs with SSNs redacted and they haven't complained about it. If you submitted everything and not heard back, I think it's worth calling them just to be sure that they have everything they need.

[Eladriel]

I'm amazed how much information needs to be provided and the fact they don't tell you how they want the information sent to them.

especially this. not blown away by columbia's administrative offices.

My favorite part is that the forms don't say anywhere don't email. But when you email them, the auto reply says at the bottom don't send your SSN unsecured.

How would I know not to send a PDF containing my SSN to financial aid if no form says don't email....

What?! How are we supposed to send it?

I literally searched everywhere for where to send it. Faack

I just said fuck it and emailed it to them.

[Eladriel]

I snooped around the CLS 2017 thread. First reported financial aid award was April 3, 2014 (scanned letter over email).

Mailed award letters started arriving on April 7, 2014.

Hearsay in the 2017 thread reported that in 2016 awards came out on April 8, 2013.