Columbia Class of 2018 Forum

[Tiago Splitter]

Michigan and Georgetown still have better job prospects than everywhere outside the T-14. I'm sure if our classes had the same poll the results would be the same

[Sirius Blackstone]

Michigan and Georgetown still have better job prospects than everywhere outside the T-14. I'm sure if our classes had the same poll the results would be the same

Yeah, my point was there's a lot more going into job prospects than prestige, such as class size/location.

[tk17]

Michigan and Georgetown still have better job prospects than everywhere outside the T-14. I'm sure if our classes had the same poll the results would be the same

Yeah, my point was there's a lot more going into job prospects than prestige, such as class size/location.

Eh. However you phrase it, it's still mostly prestige.

What does Columbia have that Cardozo and Fordham do not?

(Hint: It's not location or a different class size.)

[ticklemesilly]

oops nevermind

[Sirius Blackstone]

Michigan and Georgetown still have better job prospects than everywhere outside the T-14. I'm sure if our classes had the same poll the results would be the same

Yeah, my point was there's a lot more going into job prospects than prestige, such as class size/location.

Eh. However you phrase it, it's still mostly prestige.

What does Columbia have that Cardozo and Fordham do not?

(Hint: It's not location or a different class size.)

I don't disagree that prestige is relevant. But, NYU is arguably not more prestigious than Michigan and Georgetown, yet it has better job placement.

[Skool]

Nope, prestige and job prospects are not coextensive. Examples: Michigan, Georgetown.

If I'm understanding your point correctly, it sounds like you're saying GTown and Michigan have differences in prestige ranking (USNews) but Georgetown has better employment numbers? Thus Prestige and job prospects aren't coextensive.

But then I would say, Georgetown only seems to have better overall employment numbers than Michigan (looking at the LST overall scores), but it also has more school funded jobs included in its score. So Michigan being slightly lower doesn't, in my view, diminish the claim about coextensive prospects/prestige.

Plus the fact that Michigan is seeing a decline in prestige just as USNews starts more heavily considering job prospects seems to support the point too.

Edit: and the same could be said about comparing Columbia to Uva. Uva seems to have better job prospects, despite it's lower prestige ranking. But if you look at Uva's ranking, there are a ton of kids who are in school funded jobs compared to Columbia.

So it seems to me like the point about prestige rankings basically covering employment prospect rankings still stands, and it is thus still curious that even though people could intentionally choose jobs over prestige, they intentionally choose prestige (when they could have done otherwise without losing any of either), is still curious.

[Sirius Blackstone]

Nope, prestige and job prospects are not coextensive. Examples: Michigan, Georgetown.

If I'm understanding your point correctly, it sounds like you're saying GTown and Michigan have differences in prestige ranking (USNews) but Georgetown has better employment numbers? Thus Prestige and job prospects aren't coextensive.

But then I would say, Georgetown only seems to have better overall employment numbers than Michigan (looking at the LST overall scores), but it also has more school funded jobs included in its score. So Michigan being slightly lower doesn't, in my view, diminish the claim about coextensive prospects/prestige.

Plus the fact that Michigan is seeing a decline in prestige just as USNews starts more heavily considering job prospects seems to support the point too.

Sorry, it was dumb of me to just write the names of two schools without actually explaining what I meant. My point was that Michigan and Georgetown (more Georgetown) are schools that are relatively more prestigious than several schools above them in USNews, but that have worse job prospects. Georgetown, especially in DC, is not typically viewed as less prestigious than UVA, Duke, NYU, or CLS, yet its class's job placement isn't as good as those schools.

[Skool]

I certainly view Gtown as less prestigious than the schools you mentioned, and it certainly has lower job placement too.

But beyond what I think, what if we accepted USNews as the default measurement of prestige in terms of how people in the legal world view graduates and LST as the default measurement for job prospects the coextensive thing will mostly hold up?

If we worked with those premises, would you agree that generally the two systems of ranking would mostly overlap, such that most Columbia students in this thread choosing between Columbia and lower ranked schools (forgetting about HYS) could choose prestige (USNews) without losing job prospects.

I guess you're kind of right, though. Princeton Law is more prestigious than Uva Law, even though Uva Law grads probably have better job prospects.
And even accepting the above measurements as the standards, we still get weird cases like Duke (worse job outcomes, more legal prestige) v. Cornell (better job outcomes, less legal prestige) (but we do get the whole school funded issue, again).

[bklynlady]

Michigan and Georgetown still have better job prospects than everywhere outside the T-14. I'm sure if our classes had the same poll the results would be the same

Yeah, my point was there's a lot more going into job prospects than prestige, such as class size/location.

Eh. However you phrase it, it's still mostly prestige.

What does Columbia have that Cardozo and Fordham do not?

(Hint: It's not location or a different class size.)

I don't disagree that prestige is relevant. But, NYU is arguably not more prestigious than Michigan and Georgetown, yet it has better job placement.

I disagree. NYU has better job placement precisely because it is more prestigious and higher ranked. If you want to debate the validity of the rankings, that's a whole other discussion.

[jrc223]

Other class threads talk about fun things

[Skool]

Other class threads talk about fun things

All things being equal, people in this thread appear to be willing to choose prestige over job prospects, even when no one is forcing them to make the choice. They could have either. But it's just like, nope, prestige?

THAT IS FUCKING INTERESTING AND FUN TO TALK ABOUT, no?

Edit: I chose my words poorly. Obviously the poll forces choosing. The point is, in choosing a school, it's almost never one or the other because they're coextensive ("NYU has better job placement precisely because it is more prestigious and higher ranked"). But if they had to choose, they would choose prestige.

[tk17]

Other class threads talk about fun things

Be the change you want to see in the world.

[curlietop86]

.

[ChemEng1642]

Other class threads talk about fun things

Be the change you want to see in the world.

+1

[bklynlady]

Okay, change of topic. Any thoughts on why CLS over NYU, with financials being equal? p.s. the answer of "more prestigious" is not allowed! Concrete reasons, please!

[tk17]

Okay, change of topic. Any thoughts on why CLS over NYU, with financials being equal? p.s. the answer of "more prestigious" is not allowed! Concrete reasons, please!

Lots and lots of threads on this if you do a search, but my understanding is....

NYU: Amazing for PI. Better location. Also good for biglaw, but not quite as good as Columbia.

Columbia: Slightly better for big law. More impressive sounding (I know you said prestige wasn't allowed, but some people care). More of an actual campus.

[Skool]

Okay, change of topic. Any thoughts on why CLS over NYU, with financials being equal? p.s. the answer of "more prestigious" is not allowed! Concrete reasons, please!

Lots and lots of threads on this if you do a search, but my understanding is....

NYU: Amazing for PI.

I know people say this, but I'm not sure folks really understand how awesome NYU's clinics are, especially compared to Columbia.

[tk17]

Okay, change of topic. Any thoughts on why CLS over NYU, with financials being equal? p.s. the answer of "more prestigious" is not allowed! Concrete reasons, please!

Lots and lots of threads on this if you do a search, but my understanding is....

NYU: Amazing for PI.

I know people say this, but I'm not sure folks really understand how awesome NYU's clinics are, especially compared to Columbia every other law school in America.

[Tiago Splitter]

I chose Columbia because I thought the housing setup was better, especially for couples.

[curlietop86]

.

[bklynlady]

Okay, change of topic. Any thoughts on why CLS over NYU, with financials being equal? p.s. the answer of "more prestigious" is not allowed! Concrete reasons, please!

Lots and lots of threads on this if you do a search, but my understanding is....

NYU: Amazing for PI. Better location. Also good for biglaw, but not quite as good as Columbia.

Columbia: Slightly better for big law. More impressive sounding (I know you said prestige wasn't allowed, but some people care). More of an actual campus.

Some of the threads are old and times change. Also I am interested in what this particular group has to say about it; they are my peers. Thanks!

[Skool]

Honestly, I don't really know what mediation is. I'm more interested in SDNY/EDNY Civil and Criminal, and their Federal Defender Clinic. Pretty sure Columbia doesn't have that kind of access and training in the Federal courts. That's the first thing that caught my eye.

NYU had mediation clinics too, but again, I don't know what that is.

[smaug]

If you're interested in clinics, make sure you talk to people at both schools about them. (You can PM me about clinics at CLS and I'll answer to the best of my ability, but you should really reach out to admissions.)

I know people who enjoyed the mediation clinic, but I don't know that it's a massive draw on its own, though there are also workshops for negotiations and peacemaking, if you're interested in alternative dispute resolution stuff.

I suppose this should all go in the ask CLS students thread.

Congrats and godspeed, y'all.

[tlsapp2017]

Honestly, I don't really know what mediation is. I'm more interested in SDNY/EDNY Civil and Criminal, and their Federal Defender Clinic. Pretty sure Columbia doesn't have that kind of access and training in the Federal courts. That's the first thing that caught my eye.

NYU had mediation clinics too, but again, I don't know what that is.

Columbia definitely has programs with SDNY/EDNY, they are just list as externships, not clinics. I believe that NYU doesn't really differentiate between the two but CLS definitely does, so just be conscious of that while looking at the course offerings.

[tlsapp2017]

As far as differences between NYU and Columbia, I would focus less on perceived differences in job opportunities (NYU can get you BigLaw jobs, and Columbia can get you PI jobs; I really don't think the difference is as great as advertised) and more about the schools themselves, given that you will have to actually spend 3 years of your life there. I definitely found that the two schools had different "feels" to them. I personally liked the Columbia students that I met better and found that the professors were more accessible and friendly, but other people certainly have the opposite experience. Location can also cut both ways (some people like a little distance from downtown, and some people like waking up and being there; although a lot of NYU students live off-campus in Brooklyn, I believe). NYU's class size is a little larger, the 1L requirements are slightly different, Columbia's Legal Methods program is definitely unique, the housing options are different, etc. There are a lot of subtle differences that can add up in one direction or another.