Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions Forum

[DerekMeeker]

Those are excellent questions and ones I have encountered frequently, as Levy Scholars typically have admission offers from Harvard and non-scholarship admits to Penn typically have scholarship offers from schools outside the top 10. There are many important factors for one to consider in these situations, and the employer perspective should certainly be one of them. But I won't make comparisons between specific law schools in a public forum. I would be happy, however, to have a private conversation and share my perspective with anyone who has these or similar options on the table.

Dean Meeker,

Thank you for taking questions. I have a series of related questions about an issue that comes up repeatedly on TLS.

1) In your role as Dean of Admissions (we safely assume in this role your goal is to attract the students you've admitted to attend), what would you tell a Levy Scholar offeree debating between Penn Law with the scholarship or Harvard Law (where they cannot receive merit aid)? Let's assume without the scholarship this student would be taking out significant student loans to finance their education. If possible, try to be as conclusive/nuanced as possible beyond, "it depends."

[1b) What about a student offered no aid at Penn debating between paying the sticker price and attending, say, UTexas with a steep discount?]

2) How would this contrast with your opinion on the candidate's decision from the perspective of your role in law firm hiring?

3) Lastly, drawing on your exposure to and work alongside legal academia, how would your answer to the premise of 1) change as member of a faculty hiring committee at an elite law school (say, Penn), where an overwhelmingly large number of the tenured faculty hail from a very select cadre of effectively two schools?

If there are differences between 1), 2) and 3), how do you reconcile them? (beyond the obvious agency distinctions)

Thanks again.

[Subwaymonkey]

Really a lot of useful info in this thread, thank you Dean Meeker. My question is: Do law school adcomms see your GRE/GMAT score automatically, or is this something you have to disclose if you want it seen?

Thank You

[JT90DC]

Thanks so much for doing this post.

I'm struggling with LoR strategy. I was among the top 10 student leaders at my very large state flagship undergrad, but during my time there, I prioritized co-curriculars over academics and worked 3 jobs; none of my faculty and staff relationships are with folks who taught me in class. Given that I'm a low-GPA, high-LSAT splitter, I know that the academic rec is of increased importance, but I cannot think of a single academic rec. I'm also 5 years out of undergrad, with very substantive and progressively responsible work experience in a professional services firm, where my job is highly analytical. My supervisors could absolutely attest to my writing and research ability (as well as my client handling, business planning, and personnel management skills), but I know my employer values me highly - I'm not keen to let them know I am interested in pursuing a future outside the firm, and I can't be certain they would take to the task of writing an LoR with a lot of enthusiasm. That being said, I do have some mentors at work that I think would do this for me, but I don't know how an admissions counselor would even view that. I have no idea what to do. How might you counsel an applicant in my position?

[JCougar]

For an industry that fancies itself sophisticated, law’s recruiting process through OCI is shockingly simplistic and superficial. Interviews are primarily resume based – often avoiding behavioral questions, panel/group interviews, or cases that are the standard in consulting, banking, etc. Do you see this antiquated hiring model changing in Big Law (even to something benignly different, like what Quinn Emanuel’s doing)? If so, how soon? And if not, how do you defend this hiring model (when it seems wasteful and inefficient)?

Gosh, this is a really good question. It's one I've been asking myself for 4 years now. No one has given me an answer.

[pjohnstron0626]

Hi Dean Meeker,

I was wondering if you could provide some insight for people considering reapplying after three years of work experience/academia?

Do you recommend two page resumes over 1? Also, if we are reapplying to schools that had rejected us three years ago, should we include an addendum on our progress?

Thank you again for your thoughtful answers and insights.

[tre531]

Hello Dean,

Thanks for your help answering questions. I have a few for you and would love your help on all or any. If I am too greedy with my number of questions or their length, I have listed these questions in descending amount of importance if you only have time for 1 or 2. Thanks again!

1) I spent the past two summers (post sophomore and post junior undergrad) interning in the finance department of a relatively big law firm. While I do enjoy finance, my main takeaway from my experience there was that I am much more interested in the law and want to make that what I do with the rest of my life. That being said, I have been frequently cautioned to not put things into my personal statement that are discussed in-depth on my resume. Do you think I should focus my PS on what revelations my work experience has given me at the risk of being perceived as uninteresting and/or not having enough focus on non-law related aspects of myself? I feel I could write well on this topic but this obviously does not give admissions board great insight into my personality or life away from career goals.

2) I am a finance major that took many numbers-heavy courses that did not include much (if any) writing. However, the one course in my university's business school that is heavy on writing (all majors take it) was a 300 member section that was dependent on TA grading. Therefore, my former TA knows a lot more about my writing ability than does my actual professor. Would I be hurting an admission's board impression of me if the perceived "best" letter I could obtain was from a TA who is only 1 year out of school and thus does not hold much authority? Other professors could attest to my work ethic and effect on classroom environment, but I do not feel these would be as strongly worded or as specific as the TA's letter nor would they contain as much law school-relevant endorsement.

3) Although going to law school straight out of undergrad is not uncommon, there is obvious preference for candidates who are coming back to school from full time employment experience. Is there any point in sacrificing personal statement real estate for expressing why I am making this decision and "abandoning" the finance path (assuming I do this well) or is the mere process of applying to law school adequate expression enough and needs no explanation?

4) I know 2 page resumes are perfectly acceptable for law school, but is it detrimental in any way to limit mine to just a full 1 page resume? I feel my resume is very strong in its current state and do not want to add any useless facts.

[DerekMeeker]

Hi, there. You do not have to be a US-resident to be considered part of an "under-represented" group. But do keep in mind that discussing your identity/culture, i.e., how it has influenced/shaped/taught you, and how you would contribute to the law school classroom/community based on those experiences, is important (either via your personal statement or a diversity essay).

Hello Dean Meeker,

I have a question regarding the boost the under-represented minorities receive. Do you have to be a US-resident to receive the boost? I am a first generation Black-Canadian with parents born in Africa and I'm wondering if I would recieve a boost similar to black applicants that are US residents.

Thank you in advance!

[DerekMeeker]

You're welcome; glad you are finding the information useful. They will not see your GRE/GMAT - unless you are applying to a joint degree program for which a GRE/GMAT may be taken instead of the LSAT (very rare) , or perhaps in cases where the law school and the graduate school would be looking jointly at the joint-degree application(s) (i.e., thus, seeing both test scores) - but again, this is rare as most joint degree programs require separate applications to the law school and to the graduate program. Feel free to PM me if you want to tell me the specifics of your application or the program to which you are applying.

Really a lot of useful info in this thread, thank you Dean Meeker. My question is: Do law school adcomms see your GRE/GMAT score automatically, or is this something you have to disclose if you want it seen?

Thank You

[DerekMeeker]

Hello. First, regarding the resume: a 2-page resume is completely acceptable (even expected, in many cases) for law school applications. The 1-page resume rule for job applications does not apply to law school - whether you are applying directly from college or a few years out. Law schools want to know who you've spent your time since you began college and since you've graduated. If you were involved in extra-curricular activities and/or working during college, and have worked three years since graduating from college, a 2-page resume is probably inevitable. By all means, be inclusive. Your experience matters (and what you did during college is still relevant; you don't necessarily need to go into detail as far as what you did as a junior class representative for your college's student government, for example, but including a line for that is relevant since it shows engagement/leadership/responsibility.)

Regarding the second part of your question, yes, I think including an addendum is a good way to highlight how your current application is different. The information will be evident from your resume, and some of it may be conveyed via your personal statement (depending, of course, on what you write about), so you don't want to be too repetitive. But a succinct addendum (or even in "cover letter" form to the Dean of Admissions) that effectively summarizes your progress and accomplishments and affirms your commitment to law school/a legal career can be very beneficial and helpful to the admissions committee (always better for you to "connect the dots" for them!).

Hi Dean Meeker,

I was wondering if you could provide some insight for people considering reapplying after three years of work experience/academia?

Do you recommend two page resumes over 1? Also, if we are reapplying to schools that had rejected us three years ago, should we include an addendum on our progress?

Thank you again for your thoughtful answers and insights.

[pjohnstron0626]

Thanks for your helpfulness, Dean Meeker.

Was wondering your thoughts on an addendum as an accommodated test-taker. If you're below the median, do you think this could adversely affect your application?

My thought is, I would like to explain it in regard to my otherwise strong application. My obvious concern is, that if I'm close to another non-disabed candidate, am I putting myself at a possible disadvantage. Then again, someone mentioned in an earlier post, that accommodated tests don't get submitted to USNWR, so an addendum for a below LSAT disabled student with an otherwise strong application could be valuable to an application.

I was wondering if you could provide some details, as I have found it hard to get a candid answer on this issue.

Thanks again.

[90convoy]

Thanks for taking our questions Dean Meeker!

I'm having trouble understanding why a school would request my fall grades before deciding to admit/deny. I'm sure there are probably lots of reasons for this, but is this in general a good thing or a bad thing? I'm just wondering why I didn't get put on the waitlist.

Thanks again!

[Gonoles6]

Dean Meeker,

Thank you for taking questions.

I have a couple questions regarding the transfer process to Penn and other top schools. How much does my undergrad gpa and LSAT factor in when applying as a transfer student to a T14 from a school ranked in the top 30? What is the most common percentile for students to be accepted into Penn as a transfer student, top 10%?

Thank you for your time and help!

Hello. My apologies - I thought I had responded to this question awhile back when it was first posted. (I remember drafting the response, but perhaps I didn't hit submit!) First-year grades weigh much more heavily than LSAT and UGPA; that said, I always reviewed the LSAT and UGPA as supplemental evidence (i.e., part of the overall file) and many top schools take a similar approach. If either stands out because it is significantly lower than the school's enrollment standards, it could affect the decision. In my experience, that did not happen very often, i.e., the LSAT and UGPA (with more exceptions here, perhaps due to extenuating circumstances during college) generally did a good job of predicting the applicant's success at his or her law school. In other words, there were few outliers; transfer applicants who performed near the top of their 1L class typically had LSAT scores and UGPAs that "predicted" they would. Also, the LSAT and UGPA may be considered in close cases or when having to make choices between similarly competitive applicants. The transfer process is very competitive at the top schools (though, for awhile, some had significantly increased the number they were admitting; this trend is reversing at some schools - more on that further down), so all factors - strength of LORs, experience, Law Review, and, yes, LSAT/UGPA - will be considered in narrowing down the pool. But first-year performance is the predominant factor in this process. As far as the most common percentile for admission as a transfer to Penn - I really can't say with absolute certainty. For one thing, the reputation and competitiveness (admission standards) of the school is taken into consideration; also, many of the schools ranked in the top 30 do not rank their students and some do not provide definitive information as to grading. So, it does vary from school to school. The more selective the school (particularly ranked in the 11-15 range) the deeper they are likely to go into the pool, and the standards will tighten as you go down the line. But top 10% is probably a good guess for the 20-30 range.

All of that said, I have heard that some top schools ARE looking a bit more closely at LSAT score and UGPA because of the decline in lower-ranked schools' admission standards (due to the decline in applications overall). Some schools (Penn among them) are now interviewing transfer applicants. The increased competition in the legal market has led some schools to actually admit fewer transfer applicants (and/or to weigh other factors more heavily) to further ensure that the students they admit will not only do well academically, but also will fare well during OCI/in the legal market.

Thank you for the help Dean Meeker! Awesome to have your insight and thank you for the helpful info.

[TheBananaStand]

Hi Dean Meeker,

Thank you for taking the time to do this. As a K-JD, I have two very strong recommendations from professors I've known well in college. However, because I'm coming straight from undergrad, would admissions counselors prefer I also include an employer recommendation? I believe my supervisor from my internship this past summer could write a good one, but I don't want to bother him if you think the marginal benefit of that recommendation is pretty small. Thanks!

[DerekMeeker]

Thanks for taking our questions Dean Meeker!

I'm having trouble understanding why a school would request my fall grades before deciding to admit/deny. I'm sure there are probably lots of reasons for this, but is this in general a good thing or a bad thing? I'm just wondering why I didn't get put on the waitlist.

Thanks again!

You're very welcome. The waitlist is typically used when a full review of the application has been completed and, although they are interested in you and have determined that you are admissible, they are not making a final decision because either 1) there are more competitive candidates in the pool and they are offering admission to them first, or 2) it is simply too early for them to know where you will stack up in the pool. In your case, there has not been a "complete" review because there is additional information that they want to see before rendering a decision - which, after receiving your fall grades could still be "waitlist." At Penn and at many other schools, the "hold" status is typically used for these applicants. It is interesting that the school didn't declare that you are on "hold" - but I suppose they wanted to make it very clear as to what they wanted from you before rendering a decision. I wouldn't say it's a "bad" thing - if they didn't find you a compelling candidate they would have rejected you outright. But they also didn't choose to admit you outright, and since they are specifically requesting your fall grades, they may have some question as to academic performance. Usually a question arises when there has been "uneven" grades, or a trend either downwards or upwards, so they want to see more grades to assess continuity and sustained academic performance. But it could also simply be that your overall GPA right now is close to or just below their typical median (or what they hope will be their median!) - so they want to see if your next semester of grades will push you over the top.

[DerekMeeker]

Hi Dean Meeker,

Thank you for taking the time to do this. As a K-JD, I have two very strong recommendations from professors I've known well in college. However, because I'm coming straight from undergrad, would admissions counselors prefer I also include an employer recommendation? I believe my supervisor from my internship this past summer could write a good one, but I don't want to bother him if you think the marginal benefit of that recommendation is pretty small. Thanks!

Hello. They prefer academic recommendations, especially from applicants coming directly from college. That said, of course, having a diverse portfolio of excellent, substantive letters, i.e., academic and non-academic (either from an employer or from someone who supervised/advised you in an extra-curricular or community service position) would be beneficial. But the key words in there are "excellent" and "substantive." If you're not certain the supervisor would write a detailed, excellent letter, it is probably not worth asking him. (And it won't be expected of you to provide such a letter.) If you get held or waitlisted at a school, however, you could then reach out to him to write a letter to add to your file. That would be a way to provide new information to your file and to show a continuing interest in the school.

[DerekMeeker]

Since you have been out of college for five years, you can get away without having an academic letter (for most law schools) - but you are absolutely right in that having someone who can attest to your writing and research skills is important (as is commentary on your sustained commitment and dedicated work ethic in a rigorous setting over a period of time). If you feel you absolutely cannot ask a supervisor, then it sounds as though your only option is to ask mentors at work. That's fine, as long as they are going to be able to attest to the factors above via specific examples. (You will likely need to take a more active role in the process and guide them). The substance of the letters is what is most important. You also may want to provide a very brief addendum to explain why you were unable to get letters from your supervisors. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss in a bit more detail. I don't know what your numbers are or where you are applying, but this won't be as significant an issue for some schools.

Thanks so much for doing this post.

I'm struggling with LoR strategy. I was among the top 10 student leaders at my very large state flagship undergrad, but during my time there, I prioritized co-curriculars over academics and worked 3 jobs; none of my faculty and staff relationships are with folks who taught me in class. Given that I'm a low-GPA, high-LSAT splitter, I know that the academic rec is of increased importance, but I cannot think of a single academic rec. I'm also 5 years out of undergrad, with very substantive and progressively responsible work experience in a professional services firm, where my job is highly analytical. My supervisors could absolutely attest to my writing and research ability (as well as my client handling, business planning, and personnel management skills), but I know my employer values me highly - I'm not keen to let them know I am interested in pursuing a future outside the firm, and I can't be certain they would take to the task of writing an LoR with a lot of enthusiasm. That being said, I do have some mentors at work that I think would do this for me, but I don't know how an admissions counselor would even view that. I have no idea what to do. How might you counsel an applicant in my position?

[DerekMeeker]

Hi there. Excellent questions that come up quite frequently.

1) While it is true that you don't want to repeat what is in your resume in your personal statement, that doesn't mean you can't expand on an experience that is in your resume. What will be reflected in your resume will be an overview of the internship - what your tasks, projects, and achievements were. What will not be reflected, however, is the "journey" that you experienced via that internship, i.e., the challenges and learning experiences. As long as you can write a detailed essay that delves into the experience - takes the reader into your "world" as an intern - and also that DOES show parts of your personality (e.g., what challenged you - how did you dealt with it, what excited you and why), it can be an effective essay. Also, it will show that you have given the decision to attend law school thoughtful consideration, that you are focused and goal-oriented; these are very important factors given the current legal market. Now, if there IS something else unrelated to your internship/career goals - personal experience/background, academic experience, etc. - that you feel is more a reflection of who you are, then that may be the better topic for your personal statement. If there is a way to also relate that to your current goals, i.e., to effectively make the transition to why you are now pursuing law school, in your personal statement (perhaps in your concluding paragraph), great - you've accomplished both. But you should never force that. Because, you could always write about your internship experience and how it has shaped current goals in a one-page supplemental why law/why x school essay. Even if the school's application doesn't specifically offer a "supplemental" essay section, most say something to the effect of: if there is other information you wish to convey to the admissions committee, please attach an addendum. Basically, no school is going to penalize you for writing a solid one-page supplemental essay that discusses why you are interested in law, what your career goals are, and why that school is a good fit given your goals.

2) A letter of recommendation from a TA is perfectly fine if the TA is the person who can write the best, most substantive letter. It would be more detrimental to have a mediocre letter from a professor.

3) It is important for them to have a sense as to why you are interested in law school/a legal career. But don't think of it as "sacrificing real estate" in your personal statement. It is part of your journey and should be told - but, as I mentioned above, you could always do that in a supplemental essay if there is some other compelling topic you want to write about in your personal statement.

4) The test for resume length is all about substance. The rule is only that you should not limit yourself to one page if doing so means you have to omit important information or limit details about specific jobs or substantive activities/leadership positions. As long as your academic, work and extra-curricular/community experiences (since you began college) are sufficiently outlined, one-page is perfectly fine. There is no expectation that it be longer, particularly for candidates who don't have years of full-time work experience.

Hello Dean,

Thanks for your help answering questions. I have a few for you and would love your help on all or any. If I am too greedy with my number of questions or their length, I have listed these questions in descending amount of importance if you only have time for 1 or 2. Thanks again!

1) I spent the past two summers (post sophomore and post junior undergrad) interning in the finance department of a relatively big law firm. While I do enjoy finance, my main takeaway from my experience there was that I am much more interested in the law and want to make that what I do with the rest of my life. That being said, I have been frequently cautioned to not put things into my personal statement that are discussed in-depth on my resume. Do you think I should focus my PS on what revelations my work experience has given me at the risk of being perceived as uninteresting and/or not having enough focus on non-law related aspects of myself? I feel I could write well on this topic but this obviously does not give admissions board great insight into my personality or life away from career goals.

2) I am a finance major that took many numbers-heavy courses that did not include much (if any) writing. However, the one course in my university's business school that is heavy on writing (all majors take it) was a 300 member section that was dependent on TA grading. Therefore, my former TA knows a lot more about my writing ability than does my actual professor. Would I be hurting an admission's board impression of me if the perceived "best" letter I could obtain was from a TA who is only 1 year out of school and thus does not hold much authority? Other professors could attest to my work ethic and effect on classroom environment, but I do not feel these would be as strongly worded or as specific as the TA's letter nor would they contain as much law school-relevant endorsement.

3) Although going to law school straight out of undergrad is not uncommon, there is obvious preference for candidates who are coming back to school from full time employment experience. Is there any point in sacrificing personal statement real estate for expressing why I am making this decision and "abandoning" the finance path (assuming I do this well) or is the mere process of applying to law school adequate expression enough and needs no explanation?

4) I know 2 page resumes are perfectly acceptable for law school, but is it detrimental in any way to limit mine to just a full 1 page resume? I feel my resume is very strong in its current state and do not want to add any useless facts.

[tennactitans]

Mike,

I’ve already sent out applications, but am currently lobbying my UG university to remove several punitive withdrawls. If they were to do that, should I notify each of the schools I applied to? I’ll certainly update LSAC, but will making the instant notification make any difference? Basically, is it worth bothering admissions in order to get them that information before a possible decision is made, and possibly weeks before it is evident on my LSAC transcripts? Also, will it look like I've sidestepped the system and make them want to disregard (even subconsciously) the new numbers? Thanks in advance.

[secadc11]

Hi Dean Meeker,

I currently have LSAT scores on file but am registering for the Dec LSAT as well. I have my materials all ready to go but have yet to hit submit. My question is - how are applications like this viewed? Specifically, if I state I am waiting for a Dec LSAT, will schools wait to make their decision until then?

Similarly, which would you advise: applying now with a future LSAT score listed OR waiting to apply until after Dec LSAT is received? Assume that all the applications have fee waivers, making cost of applications a non-factor.

[DerekMeeker]

Hello. I would notify the schools of any change to your academic history/transcript and let them know that LSAC will be sending the updated transcript. Better to be proactive than to risk a decision being made without the new information.

Mike,

I’ve already sent out applications, but am currently lobbying my UG university to remove several punitive withdrawls. If they were to do that, should I notify each of the schools I applied to? I’ll certainly update LSAC, but will making the instant notification make any difference? Basically, is it worth bothering admissions in order to get them that information before a possible decision is made, and possibly weeks before it is evident on my LSAC transcripts? Also, will it look like I've sidestepped the system and make them want to disregard (even subconsciously) the new numbers? Thanks in advance.

[bjsesq]

Dean Meeker:

[DerekMeeker]

Hello. You have to affirmatively request that the schools hold your file until they receive the December LSAT score. So, you can submit, but if you say nothing, they will proceed with processing and reviewing your application (and rendering a decision). If you want them to consider your December LSAT score, then request that they wait (and they will).

I would submit the applications now and notify them that you are taking the December LSAT and would like for them to wait for that score before reviewing. This way, at least your file is in and can be processed/completed pending arrival of the next score. Waiting to submit your application until after you receive the December LSAT score will place your file further in the queue and further delay review.

Hi Dean Meeker,

I currently have LSAT scores on file but am registering for the Dec LSAT as well. I have my materials all ready to go but have yet to hit submit. My question is - how are applications like this viewed? Specifically, if I state I am waiting for a Dec LSAT, will schools wait to make their decision until then?

Similarly, which would you advise: applying now with a future LSAT score listed OR waiting to apply until after Dec LSAT is received? Assume that all the applications have fee waivers, making cost of applications a non-factor.

[Mal Reynolds]

Here is my advice that comports almost precisely with tls conventional wisdom, the only exception being when I can self-servingly make issues seem more complicated so that you are misled into purchasing my luxurious service suite.

[bjsesq]

Dean Meeker:

[secadc11]

Hello. You have to affirmatively request that the schools hold your file until they receive the December LSAT score. So, you can submit, but if you say nothing, they will proceed with processing and reviewing your application (and rendering a decision). If you want them to consider your December LSAT score, then request that they wait (and they will).

I would submit the applications now and notify them that you are taking the December LSAT and would like for them to wait for that score before reviewing. This way, at least your file is in and can be processed/completed pending arrival of the next score. Waiting to submit your application until after you receive the December LSAT score will place your file further in the queue and further delay review.

Hi Dean Meeker,

I currently have LSAT scores on file but am registering for the Dec LSAT as well. I have my materials all ready to go but have yet to hit submit. My question is - how are applications like this viewed? Specifically, if I state I am waiting for a Dec LSAT, will schools wait to make their decision until then?

Similarly, which would you advise: applying now with a future LSAT score listed OR waiting to apply until after Dec LSAT is received? Assume that all the applications have fee waivers, making cost of applications a non-factor.

Thank you Dean Meeker! Very helpful.