Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions Forum

[North]

Here to criticize Meeker when he does irresponsible shill things like not correcting an applicant who indicates that he thinks he might be able teach Constitutional Law at a university or law school with a law degree from CUNY.

It's all good as long as you can make a cool $200 for editing the kid's personal statement, right.

[DerekMeeker]

Many joint degree programs, Penn's included, necessitate separate, individual applications to the two schools. (The 3-year JD/MBA program at Penn is an exception; for that program, 1 application is required). You must be admitted to both schools separately before you can get approval to pursue the joint program. There can be a benefit in letting the schools know that you are applying for a joint degree program, because if you are a "bubble" applicant in terms of competitiveness for the Law School, for example, but get admitted to the Bioethics masters program, the Law School might then be more inclined to admit you to its program (and vice versa). But he or she wouldn't actually be reading your application to the graduate school.

From Penn's website: Students interested in earning a concurrent degree should apply separately to that program or school and, in most cases, can apply to that second program either contemporaneously with their application to Penn Law or while in their 1L or 2L year.

From HLS's website: Students interested in one of the four joint degree programs described above must apply separately to each school. Each school will independently review and accept applicants.

Dean meeker,
Can one apply to two programs at the same school, such as JD and MBA or JD and MPP, separately without applying for joint-degree in either application and if accepted to either or both, pick one or make it a joint-degree? What should one differently than applying to just one program at a school?
If one applied to only one program at a school (hls/penn) and then after some time in the same cycle decided to apply to a law program at the same university, are they required to mention the first program in the law school application?

Applying separately without specifying a joint degree upfront is easier as it does away with joint-degree essays. If one does choose joint degree in the application then their essays can't say one goal in one application and different one in the other, and essays can't conflict, which can make the process more complex. Thanks.

[Apodosis]

Dean Meeker,

This is somewhat similar to earlier questions. I took the December LSAT, and I am predicting a lower score than my PTs. That is, I am fairly certain I can increase my score.

How much can a February LSAT score influence both merit scholarships and acceptances? It seems really late in the application cycle. But, if the increase is from a 167 to a 173+ (GPA 3.8 ), could it influence acceptances, waitlist decisions, and scholarships? Can it do so significantly?

Thanks

[wunderkind2]

Dean Meeker,

How much do you care about a student's fall grades if you've already admitted said student to your law school? What would it take for a student to get revoked?

Also, how do schools view an applicant who graduates in 2.5 years (assuming s/he has numbers greater than/equal to your medians and would normally stand as good a chance as any in admissions) if her/his work experience and extracurricular involvement is on par with that of 4 year college student K-JDs?

Thanks!

[DerekMeeker]

Hi there. I would say there is an expectation that you continue to perform around the same level, and in my experience nearly all applicants do. I don't recall a single situation where an accepted applicant's grades dropped significantly enough to warrant a discussion amongst the admissions committee to consider revoking his or her offer of admission. That's not to say that a school wouldn't do it—it's just that it is so rare that an applicant who is planning to attend law school and gets accepted to a competitive school would allow his or her grades to substantially drop. You certainly don't want to take any chances by risking a material change in performance. Something to note: The firm at which I worked sometimes requested undergraduate transcripts when hiring 1Ls for summer associate positions (since we would have only 1 semester of grades when we were interviewing 1Ls) and for rising 2Ls who were applying for the firm's diversity scholarship. It was also becoming a more common practice due to the ambiguous grading and lack of class rank at many top law schools. The point is, your entire academic record is still subject to examination for law school enrollment and possibly for future jobs and scholarships as well. Continue to do the best work you can throughout college.

As to your question regarding applicants who graduate in 2.5 years, my question when reviewing such applicants was always: are they ready for law school and a career as a lawyer? I wanted to be assured that the applicant was mature, professional, had strong interpersonal and/or leadership skills and could articulate why he or she wanted to go to law school/become a lawyer. Regardless of what the applicant's numbers were, those things had to come through in the application (via letters of recommendation and essays).

Dean Meeker,

How much do you care about a student's fall grades if you've already admitted said student to your law school? What would it take for a student to get revoked?

Also, how do schools view an applicant who graduates in 2.5 years (assuming s/he has numbers greater than/equal to your medians and would normally stand as good a chance as any in admissions) if her/his work experience and extracurricular involvement is on par with that of 4 year college student K-JDs?

Thanks!

[DerekMeeker]

Yes, absolutely! In this market, February is no longer considered "really late" in the application cycle. If you are confident you can increase your score by that much, you should go for it. Many schools will still be looking for 170+ applicants come spring. (And, yes, some will still award scholarships to get them.)

Dean Meeker,

This is somewhat similar to earlier questions. I took the December LSAT, and I am predicting a lower score than my PTs. That is, I am fairly certain I can increase my score.

How much can a February LSAT score influence both merit scholarships and acceptances? It seems really late in the application cycle. But, if the increase is from a 167 to a 173+ (GPA 3.8 ), could it influence acceptances, waitlist decisions, and scholarships? Can it do so significantly?

Thanks

[ymmv]

Dean Meeker,

This is somewhat similar to earlier questions. I took the December LSAT, and I am predicting a lower score than my PTs. That is, I am fairly certain I can increase my score.

How much can a February LSAT score influence both merit scholarships and acceptances? It seems really late in the application cycle. But, if the increase is from a 167 to a 173+ (GPA 3.8 ), could it influence acceptances, waitlist decisions, and scholarships? Can it do so significantly?

Thanks

Since you're fairly certain you can increase your score (and testing below PTs), you should absolutely wait out this cycle and reapply early next year for better admit rates and scholarship offers. You have a great GPA, and February is just way too late in the game to be worth wasting your stats on.

[it2015]

Resolved

[Danif2]

Hi Dean Meeker,

Thanks for taking my question- really appreciate it! I am debating submitting a low lsat addendum and would like some advice on what to do. My pre law advisor at my school said I should but I'm just not sure. This is the statement I wanted to send along with proof of these scores. I took the December test so I am not 100% sure of my score but I usually score around 159-161. Any help would be greatly appreciated!! Thank you!!

I believe my LSAT score is a poor predictor of my future promise at law school. Instead, I believe my academic record is a much better indicator of my abilities to succeed. My undergraduate university application is an example of why standardized test scores are not a reliable indicator of my abilities. When applying to UCSB, I was at the top of my high school class with a GPA of 4.4. My SAT score for 2009, on the other hand was an 1820, which is in the 83rd percentile. This shows that my SAT score seriously under predicted my performance at UCSB. Upon graduation, I ranked in the top 6% of my class with an overall GPA of 3.87, completed two majors and the honors program, financially supported myself both at UCSB and during my study abroad, and held several jobs and leadership positions during my four years.

[banjo]

Hi Dean Meeker,

Thanks for taking my question- really appreciate it! I am debating submitting a low lsat addendum and would like some advice on what to do. My pre law advisor at my school said I should but I'm just not sure. This is the statement I wanted to send along with proof of these scores. I took the December test so I am not 100% sure of my score but I usually score around 159-161. Any help would be greatly appreciated!! Thank you!!

I believe my LSAT score is a poor predictor of my future promise at law school. Instead, I believe my academic record is a much better indicator of my abilities to succeed. My undergraduate university application is an example of why standardized test scores are not a reliable indicator of my abilities. When applying to UCSB, I was at the top of my high school class with a GPA of 4.4. My SAT score for 2009, on the other hand was an 1820, which is in the 83rd percentile. This shows that my SAT score seriously under predicted my performance at UCSB. Upon graduation, I ranked in the top 6% of my class with an overall GPA of 3.87, completed two majors and the honors program, financially supported myself both at UCSB and during my study abroad, and held several jobs and leadership positions during my four years.

Just retake if you underperform. You scored somewhere in the middle of UCSB's SAT band and happened to get a high GPA. That's hardly enough evidence to suggest that standardized tests are a poor predictor of your academic potential. It MIGHT be a different story if you were far below the SAT mean at a challenging undergrad and went on to win a Rhodes or publish. Ideally you would also be able to point to other instances where test scores failed to predict your potential.

[Danif2]

Maybe "low lsat addenda" is a bad way of describing what I was thinking of writing. I just wanted to write an addenda saying I dont think its an accurate indicator of my future promise to suceed in law school. Thoughts?

[DerekMeeker]

It's a tough case to make with an SAT score that is in the 83rd percentile and not below the 25th percentile at the school in which you enrolled. Typically, there needs to be a greater disparity between the score and the academic performance for that argument to be persuasive.

Maybe "low lsat addenda" is a bad way of describing what I was thinking of writing. I just wanted to write an addenda saying I dont think its an accurate indicator of my future promise to suceed in law school. Thoughts?

[LSATneurotic]

Hey Meeker,


You should change the thread title to former T-7 dean taking questions. I think it's important people know just how qualified you are. Amirite?

[Dr. Nefario]

Dean meeker,
What are some good questions/topics for a meeting with an admissions officer to a school you're already accepted to? Also, is that a bad time to ask about scholarship negotiations or increasing their amount of scholarship they will offer? Thanks!

[DerekMeeker]

Hi there. I think one of the most important topics to discuss is career services and placement. I would ask detailed questions as to the career development/preparation they provide and the recruiting process (e.g., are interviews 100% lottery-based or can employers decide who they want to interview). Look at the school's most recent ABA placement report to see where their graduates are going (both in terms of type of work and geographic region) and ask specific questions based on what you're seeing in their statistics. You can even request to meet with someone from the Career Services staff during your visit. How have they responded to the downturn in the legal market in terms of preparing their students/graduates? How has the curriculum changed in light of the legal market's "new normal."

Other possible topics/questions:

How does the school differentiate itself from its competitor/peer schools (or from the specific schools you are considering). Good to hear how the administrators' pitch - and then, of course, ask the same question of students you meet (but not just the students the admissions office assigns as your tour guide or host - spend some time at the school on your own so you can observe and speak with students randomly).

What are some of the Law School's short- and long-term goals, both from an admissions perspective and more broadly. I think this is a good one to gauge how much they're thinking about the future, being innovative, and staying competitive in today's market.

What do students want to see changed or improved? (i.e., what do they complain most about)? Where do you see opportunities for improvement, growth, development, etc?

And, yes, I do think you can ask about financial aid and the possibility for negotiation during your visit. You can ask in advance if you should discuss your financial package with the admissions officer or meet with a financial aid officer during your visit to get the conversation going. You can ask what the process is for reviewing financial aid offers you received from other schools. They may have a very specific process in place (and it may be limited to certain schools).

Dean meeker,
What are some good questions/topics for a meeting with an admissions officer to a school you're already accepted to? Also, is that a bad time to ask about scholarship negotiations or increasing their amount of scholarship they will offer? Thanks!

[Iwanttolawschool]

Thank you for taking questions, and I tried my best to search for the answer but was unable to. When completing applications, I originally indicated that I would not be registering for a future LSAT. I have since decided I will do my third write this February. Should I email the schools I have applied to (perhaps just once where I am under LSAT medians?) to let them know? I was told schools can see that I have registered for a future LSAT if they pull my file, but maybe not if I am already under review.
Basically, should I email my reaches that I have registered for the Feb LSAT, or is that annoying?

[bretby]

Hi Dean Meeker -

I have a question about how schools decide who they send recruitment emails to. I know it means nothing in terms of gauging real interest, but I am just genuinely curious about the algorithm/metric schools use. There seems to be little rhyme or reason to the communications I've received, in that they are either from schools like Vermont Law School or schools like Harvard, but very few from schools in the lower t14 and t1. Why is that?

[DerekMeeker]

You're welcome! Yes, email the schools to let them know. Best to be sure they are aware.

Thank you for taking questions, and I tried my best to search for the answer but was unable to. When completing applications, I originally indicated that I would not be registering for a future LSAT. I have since decided I will do my third write this February. Should I email the schools I have applied to (perhaps just once where I am under LSAT medians?) to let them know? I was told schools can see that I have registered for a future LSAT if they pull my file, but maybe not if I am already under review.
Basically, should I email my reaches that I have registered for the Feb LSAT, or is that annoying?

[DerekMeeker]

Hi there. Great question—but the answer is it varies widely from school to school, which explains why you have received recruitment emails from such a broad range. Some schools use it as a way to simply increase their applicant pool, without regard to how competitive the applicant actually is for their school. Some schools may be more focused on trying to raise their LSAT, so they will send to anyone above a certain LSAT number but without much regard for the GPA, whereas other schools will only send to applicants with an LSAT AND GPA that is competitive (around median or above) for their school. Also, diversity factors greatly into the process—not just in terms of race, ethnicity or sexual orientation, but also in terms of gender and geography. For example, an east coast school may send recruitment emails to a much broader LSAT and GPA band to candidates in the Midwest, South and West. Similarly, schools looking to enroll more women might send emails to a much broader LSAT and GPA band for women. There are numerous factors that the schools can use to filter, depending on the demographic they are most interested in recruiting.

Hi Dean Meeker -

I have a question about how schools decide who they send recruitment emails to. I know it means nothing in terms of gauging real interest, but I am just genuinely curious about the algorithm/metric schools use. There seems to be little rhyme or reason to the communications I've received, in that they are either from schools like Vermont Law School or schools like Harvard, but very few from schools in the lower t14 and t1. Why is that?

[Kopacker]

Hello DM,

I have a unique situation, to a certain extent. I am currently in the military, U.S. Coast Guard to be exact, and I am currently enrolled in American Public University/American Military University. My question is, being as though I will be receiving my undergrad degree from this institution that's classified as an online school, are my chances hindered to getting accepted to a T20 law school? Will it be taken into consideration that majority military members aren't necessarily able to attend brick and mortar schools? In addition, I have been active duty for 6 years and my contract expires Sept 2016. My hopes are to apply during the early admissions this year, being as though I will be a senior and I take my LSAT in June. Any advice would be helpful. Thank in advance for responding to these forums. All of your replies are much help.

[MattM]

Hello,

I was wondering do any law schools review applications in the period between when the June LSAT scores are released and the release date of the Oct LSAT scores? And if there would be any difference in my admissions chances between June and Oct LSAT release dates?

From what I have read most schools don't review apps until November?December anyways....and if so I would imagine any difference would be minimal if at all even if some schools did review apps during that time between those two exam administrations. ( my three testing administration options are June/Oct , june /dec or oct/dec as I will be using two attempts max this year)

And if applying to 15-20 schools how many days should I allot for filling out apps, editing PS and what not?.....I am applying for Fall 2016 so I will try to get my PS and resume before the LSAT is over because I don't want to be doing everything after the LSAT

[DerekMeeker]

Hi there. I'm glad you're finding my replies helpful. And my apologies for my delays in responding to questions right now. With the release of LSAT scores last week, it has been a very busy weekend!

Here is the thing, online universities (and any 4-year university with which an Adcomm may not be very familiar or that may not have a solid academic reputation) make the admission burden heavier. What I mean by that is that you have the burden to show in all parts of your application that you have what it takes to be academically successful at that ("T20") school: an outstanding LSAT score, outstanding grades, superior writing skills, and excellent academic letters of recommendation. Law school faculty tend to view online programs with skepticism, so do everything you can to ensure the remaining components of your application are stellar. (And, yes, apply as early in the cycle as possible!)

Hello DM,

I have a unique situation, to a certain extent. I am currently in the military, U.S. Coast Guard to be exact, and I am currently enrolled in American Public University/American Military University. My question is, being as though I will be receiving my undergrad degree from this institution that's classified as an online school, are my chances hindered to getting accepted to a T20 law school? Will it be taken into consideration that majority military members aren't necessarily able to attend brick and mortar schools? In addition, I have been active duty for 6 years and my contract expires Sept 2016. My hopes are to apply during the early admissions this year, being as though I will be a senior and I take my LSAT in June. Any advice would be helpful. Thank in advance for responding to these forums. All of your replies are much help.

[MattM]

Hello,

sorry for the double message but in your experience with clients and what you have read, what is Harvard Law's stance on multiple LSAT takes?

From their website "The LSAT need be taken only once. If you take the test more than once, all scores will be received but we will use the highest score in our evaluation." ...but from TLS experience many users say that even taking it multiple times doesn't penalize one's chances at HLS as they primarily consider the highest

I was talking about it with a friend who wanted to take the LSAT multiple times to get her average to a 172 ( first two were 168, 171), but i mentioned to her instead that it was the highest they consider the most so I wanted confirmation on that front

[xonimi]

Dean Meeker,

I have a GPA that is below the 25 percentile of one of the schools I am applying too. My major was Business Law so I took a variety of law courses such as IP law, Real Estate Law, Business Law, etc. In the semesters consisting mostly of those courses, I received high grades.
Do you think it would matter to the Admissions Committee that I did well in my law courses? Would they take that into consideration?

[DerekMeeker]

Hi there. During the summer months, law schools are managing and reviewing waitlisted applicants for that year's incoming class and also reviewing transfer applications for that year. They will not begin reviewing applications for the following year's class until the fall (as early as October - some not until November). So, I would not say there is a significant difference in your chances for admission as between the June and October test dates. Your completed applications will still be reviewed very early in the process with an October LSAT. However, the advantage of taking the June test is that you have time to prepare and retake the test in October if need be. If you wait until October to take for the first time and your score is not satisfactory, you would be retaking in December. Then your application doesn't get reviewed until much later in the process (which could diminish your chances, particularly if you are a "splitter" or bubble candidate, or below both median LSAT and median GPA for the schools to which you are applying). The June test gives you more time to plan and complete your applications in advance.

As far as how many days to allot, it really varies widely among applicants. I have clients that are able to complete their essays and applications in a matter of weeks, but others take 3 months. It really depends on what your other obligations are (e.g., if you are working full-time, or going to school full-time and working part-time, etc.), how quickly you are able to write and edit solid essays (the writing process takes much longer for some people), and the application requirements for the schools to which you are applying. Some schools have a specific page or word limit for the personal statements; others have no page or word limit. So you may need 2-3 versions of your PS (depending on what you write about). Many of the top 20 schools also have an optional essay section, so you may find that you have a number of additional essays to write. I would allow at least 2 months to complete those applications. If your goal is to submit your applications early in the fall season, start working on them in the earlier part of the summer (after the June LSAT), so that you have plenty of time to deal with any issues that might come up, edit and refine your essays, and address specific requirements and/or supplemental essays for certain schools.

Hello,

I was wondering do any law schools review applications in the period between when the June LSAT scores are released and the release date of the Oct LSAT scores? And if there would be any difference in my admissions chances between June and Oct LSAT release dates?

From what I have read most schools don't review apps until November?December anyways....and if so I would imagine any difference would be minimal if at all even if some schools did review apps during that time between those two exam administrations. ( my three testing administration options are June/Oct , june /dec or oct/dec as I will be using two attempts max this year)

And if applying to 15-20 schools how many days should I allot for filling out apps, editing PS and what not?.....I am applying for Fall 2016 so I will try to get my PS and resume before the LSAT is over because I don't want to be doing everything after the LSAT