Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions Forum

[DerekMeeker]

Yes, you need only to have completed a bachelor's degree (in any country) to apply to law school in the US.

Hi Deen Meeker

Is it acceptable to apply to US Law Schools with 3-year bachelors degree from a foreign institution?

For example, all British, Australian and New Zealand universities are based on 3 year bachelors.

Does it vary from school to school or is it a non-factor?

Thank for all your help.

[canon1845]

Yes, you need only to have completed a bachelor's degree (in any country) to apply to law school in the US.

Hi Deen Meeker

Is it acceptable to apply to US Law Schools with 3-year bachelors degree from a foreign institution?

For example, all British, Australian and New Zealand universities are based on 3 year bachelors.

Does it vary from school to school or is it a non-factor?

Thank for all your help.

Thank you Deen

[DerekMeeker]

You may choose to omit some very short-term jobs, particularly if you have been working for several years. Just be mindful of any gaps in time on your resume or in your employment history section on the application. Gaps will lead the admissions committee to question what you were doing during those time frames. Also, you should not omit any jobs worked during school, even if the jobs seem insignificant. It is important for admissions committees to know what your time commitments and obligations were outside of school.

Choosing not to respond to optional questions will not have a negative effect on your application; however, providing certain information that is optional could help your application (e.g.—again—knowing the number of hours you work or worked for particular jobs provides information as to your level of responsibility, time commitment, and work ethic). In short, just be conscious about omitting any information that could either 1) raise questions or 2) be advantageous to your application.

Dean meeker
If someone has had many employers over the years, can one leave out the short length minor short length employments out of the online application? There are also several fields in the online application that are optional, hours, reason for leaving, racial/ethnicity etc. Some of them don't make sense for my type of full time work where one is exempt from hour based system and where the hours can vary from 90 to 40 depending on the load. does leaving out reason for leaving or racial/ethnicity etc have any even marginal effect? it probably applies to urm but i am not sure how these sections are applicable to non urms.

[Liz_Lemon]

Dean Meeker -

Thanks for answering questions, your responses have been really helpful. I'm debating whether to write a GPA addendum, and am wondering if you could offer some guidance.

I attended a T20 liberal arts college, and graduated with a cumulative GPA of 3.57. I had a 3.9 average my last two years of college, but started out with averages around 3.3 - 3.5 during my first two years, so there was a definite "upward trajectory" in my grades that will be apparent if adcoms pay attention to that. I had initially studied international relations, but changed focus in my major after returning from studying abroad. Once I realized that american government and politics were my real academic interests (rather than IR), I earned much better grades.

Is this worth addressing? Or will writing about this give the impression that I only do really well in classes that I like?

Thanks for your advice!

[DerekMeeker]

Hi there. I don't think it is worth addressing the grade trend in an addendum in your case. Upward trajectories are quite common as it sometimes takes a little while for students to adjust to college, and also students tend to do better later when the majority of their classes are in their majors. You would need to write an addendum only if there were extenuating circumstances that affected your performance in those first two years.

Dean Meeker -

Thanks for answering questions, your responses have been really helpful. I'm debating whether to write a GPA addendum, and am wondering if you could offer some guidance.

I attended a T20 liberal arts college, and graduated with a cumulative GPA of 3.57. I had a 3.9 average my last two years of college, but started out with averages around 3.3 - 3.5 during my first two years, so there was a definite "upward trajectory" in my grades that will be apparent if adcoms pay attention to that. I had initially studied international relations, but changed focus in my major after returning from studying abroad. Once I realized that american government and politics were my real academic interests (rather than IR), I earned much better grades.

Is this worth addressing? Or will writing about this give the impression that I only do really well in classes that I like?

Thanks for your advice!

[meinmark]

Hi Dean Meeker,

Thanks for answering questions. I have applied ED for Penn and received a meeting request via skype today. It seems that Penn rarely did interview before? I have no idea what this interview will be like and what this interview means for. I value this opportunity to speak to them so much and could you please give me some suggestion on how to prepare for the interview? Really nervous since skype is not as good as face to face.

Thanks!

[DerekMeeker]

Hello. Please send me a PM so I can get a sense of your application/profile.

Thanks,
DM

Hi Dean Meeker,

Thanks for answering questions. I have applied ED for Penn and received a meeting request via skype today. It seems that Penn rarely did interview before? I have no idea what this interview will be like and what this interview means for. I value this opportunity to speak to them so much and could you please give me some suggestion on how to prepare for the interview? Really nervous since skype is not as good as face to face.

Thanks!

[LawHopeful90]

Hello, you're very welcome!

Basically, whether you were waitlisted or rejected you have to ascertain, as best you can, where the weaknesses were in your application that kept you from being admitted. If you submit the same application or a very similar one with little change, you are likely to get the same decision. So, obtaining a new letter of recommendation, for example, is unlikely to result in a different decision if a low LSAT was the primary weakness in the original application. Some schools do like to see updated letters of recommendation, however, because the assumption is that you will have had some time in between application cycles to do something else (even if it was simply taking additional courses to finish your degree). The same can be said for the personal statement; the thought is that perhaps your perspective has changed due to additional experience in the interim or perhaps your academic and/or career goals have become clearer, so you should update your personal statement to reflect that. The decision may have simply been the result of applying too late in the cycle (particularly if you were a splitter or bubble candidate), in which case you'd obviously want to submit your application much earlier the following cycle. So the "best way to reapply" to schools that waitlisted or rejected you will vary from applicant to applicant. Now, schools understand, of course, that some applicants who were on the waitlist through the summer and ultimately rejected will be reapplying just a few months later (which sounds like is the case for you). Thus, it may simply not be feasible for applicants in that position to get another stellar letter of recommendation or to write a wholly different essay. But the same rule applies: you must try to identify the weakness or weaknesses in your application that led to not getting admitted and improve in those areas. So, to answer your question as far as how law schools feel about only "slightly updated personal statements from reapplications"—if the original personal statement contributed to the decision, i.e., that it simply didn't stand out or wasn't stellar (but they kept you on the waitlist for some other factor, e.g., maybe they'd need your GPA later)—then they are likely to render the same decision.

Hi Dean Meeker - Thanks for the great advice in this thread!

What is the best way to reapply to schools that waitlisted you? I see that some schools like Penn require new recommendations and an updated personal statement if you were denied. Does the same thing apply to waitlisted applicants? How do law schools feel about only slightly updated personal statements from reapplications that haven't done much more since the last admissions cycle. Thanks!

Belated thanks for this response Dean Meeker!

[yankee3000]

Hi Dean Meeker,

I have an unusual (?) question.

I would like to get a law degree - JD -- but do not intend to practice law as an attorney. I know there are online schools out there but I would like to attend a brick and mortar school. The thing is, since it is mostly for my own intelectual curiosity and challenge, I probably wouldn't have recommendations. Can those be waved? The reputation of the school is not important.
Are there any you would recommend? I hold several advanced degrees so the course work would be no problem. I anticipate doing well on the LSATs since the practice books I found to be pretty easy.

Thank you!

- Y

[DerekMeeker]

Hi there. I believe thomas cooley law school (Western Michigan) does not require letters of recommendation. But nearly all ABA-approved schools require at least 1 letter of recommendation. If you do well on the LSAT and have a solid academic record, some lower-ranked schools might be willing to waive the requirement, but you would have to contact them to find out. Is there someone—supervisor, co-worker, colleague—who could write one letter for you? Otherwise, you might also look at non-ABA approved law schools since you are not intending to practice. The LSAC website lists all the schools—ABA-approved and non-approved—and whether they require the LSAC letter of recommendation/evaluation service. http://www.lsac.org/jd/applying-to-law- ... aw-schools

I would also add that, even though you said "reputation of the school is not important" and that you do not intend to practice law, do consider whether there is any chance that could that change in the future. Given the time and money you would be investing, I would still advise getting a degree from the most reputable school (that is financially the most feasible) and otherwise a good fit for you. If you ever decide at some point in the future that you do want to practice law or at least use the degree for leverage in a career, it will of course serve you better to have attended a school that will provide opportunities for you to do that. When I worked at Penn, we would sometimes get calls from people who had gotten JDs from non-accredited law schools. They had been practicing in the state where they got the degree (e.g., California), which was permissible for that state, but then found themselves needing to relocate to another state where they would not be able to sit for the bar (because they had not gone to an ABA-approved school). They wanted to know if they could apply to Penn as a transfer student with advanced standing since they had already gotten a JD. And the answer was no; they would have to apply as a 1L and go through the entire law school process again. It happened pretty frequently, so just be mindful of that when going to a school just to get the degree. You just wouldn't want to do anything that could limit future opportunities should your goals or needs change.

Hi Dean Meeker,

I have an unusual (?) question.

I would like to get a law degree - JD -- but do not intend to practice law as an attorney. I know there are online schools out there but I would like to attend a brick and mortar school. The thing is, since it is mostly for my own intelectual curiosity and challenge, I probably wouldn't have recommendations. Can those be waved? The reputation of the school is not important.
Are there any you would recommend? I hold several advanced degrees so the course work would be no problem. I anticipate doing well on the LSATs since the practice books I found to be pretty easy.

Thank you!

- Y

[appind]

Hi
Is it advantageous or disadvantageous to choose to list a reason for leaving if it's a layoff?
For someone who is indian-american (from asia) is it better to leave the racial/ethnic background portion of the application. I have heard that asians are over-represented and so mentioning it can reduce one's chances.

[Mal Reynolds]

Yes have you looked into non-ABA approved law schools? If you pay me some money I can tell you how prudent a choice that would be.

[DerekMeeker]

A layoff as reason for leaving a job will not have any impact on the decision.
Choosing whether you want to identify your race or ethnicity is really a personal decision, but doing so is not going to "reduce one's chances" for admission.

Hi
Is it advantageous or disadvantageous to choose to list a reason for leaving if it's a layoff?
For someone who is indian-american (from asia) is it better to leave the racial/ethnic background portion of the application. I have heard that asians are over-represented and so mentioning it can reduce one's chances.

[LSATneurotic]

Why does Penn choose to admit lower scoring URMs (specifically african Americans) over higher scoring URMs. Who came up with that stupid idea ?

[narwhalsrfun]

Hello Mr. Meeker,

I am a Mexican-American female who was PTing at 167-174 and had a disappointing September LSAT (panicked in LG) and then went into the December test ready and calm only to have something fairly awful happen as a result of test conditions. Won't disclose because its pretty unique and I'm putting it in addendum, but basically it was dramatic:s I may still retake, believe me I understand, but I am planning to apply with September score. Penn is probably my first choice school but I come from a really disadvantaged background, contribute a lot to expenses at home, and want to apply RD in case there is any hope for getting scholarships or having them match scholarships. Do you think this is far more risky than ED and likely to get me rejected or waitlisted/if not do you have any advice that would make my RD application more likely to stand out? Any insight or advice is appreciated, it's amazing that you're on here.

Stats:
4.0/164

Disadvantaged background--family tragedy made me want to go into PI and practice labor law. Worked a lot in undergrad, think 20+/week.

Three majors in 4 years

Student Government Elected Position, plus three other clubs

Research grants from well-known organizations

ACLU Legal Fellow as a ugrad, AmeriCorps

Lots of activism work with migrant workers domestically and
internationally and awards for it

One big National Scholarship win and two Rhodes/Truman/Marshall/Fulbright level finalist spots

[DerekMeeker]

Hello. Your 4.0 GPA and soft factors make you a very competitive applicant, so I think applying RD is a wise decision. As you noted, it will allow you to compare financial packages and possibly negotiate for additional funding at certain schools. You don't need the "slight bump" that ED can provide. If you have strong letters of recommendation (and it sounds like you do based on your academic record, involvement, and scholarship submissions) and submit a well-written, compelling personal statement, in addition to an optional essay (do the Penn "values" essay), you will certainly be competitive at Penn for RD.

Feel free to PM me if you want to tell me where you went to college, what your majors were, and who wrote your letters of recommendation. I don't know that an LSAT retake in February would even be necessary (except for possibly increasing merit scholarship awards), but I'd want to know a little more information before advising on that.

Hello Mr. Meeker,

I am a Mexican-American female who was PTing at 167-174 and had a disappointing September LSAT (panicked in LG) and then went into the December test ready and calm only to have something fairly awful happen as a result of test conditions. Won't disclose because its pretty unique and I'm putting it in addendum, but basically it was dramatic:s I may still retake, believe me I understand, but I am planning to apply with September score. Penn is probably my first choice school but I come from a really disadvantaged background, contribute a lot to expenses at home, and want to apply RD in case there is any hope for getting scholarships or having them match scholarships. Do you think this is far more risky than ED and likely to get me rejected or waitlisted/if not do you have any advice that would make my RD application more likely to stand out? Any insight or advice is appreciated, it's amazing that you're on here.

Stats:
4.0/164

Disadvantaged background--family tragedy made me want to go into PI and practice labor law. Worked a lot in undergrad, think 20+/week.

Three majors in 4 years

Student Government Elected Position, plus three other clubs

Research grants from well-known organizations

ACLU Legal Fellow as a ugrad, AmeriCorps

Lots of activism work with migrant workers domestically and
internationally and awards for it

One big National Scholarship win and two Rhodes/Truman/Marshall/Fulbright level finalist spots

[jbagelboy]

Hello. Your 4.0 GPA and soft factors make you a very competitive applicant, so I think applying RD is a wise decision. As you noted, it will allow you to compare financial packages and possibly negotiate for additional funding at certain schools. You don't need the "slight bump" that ED can provide. If you have strong letters of recommendation (and it sounds like you do based on your academic record, involvement, and scholarship submissions) and submit a well-written, compelling personal statement, in addition to an optional essay (do the Penn "values" essay), you will certainly be competitive at Penn for RD.

Feel free to PM me if you want to tell me where you went to college, what your majors were, and who wrote your letters of recommendation. I don't know that an LSAT retake in February would even be necessary (except for possibly increasing merit scholarship awards), but I'd want to know a little more information before advising on that.

Hello Mr. Meeker,

I am a Mexican-American female who was PTing at 167-174 and had a disappointing September LSAT (panicked in LG) and then went into the December test ready and calm only to have something fairly awful happen as a result of test conditions. Won't disclose because its pretty unique and I'm putting it in addendum, but basically it was dramatic:s I may still retake, believe me I understand, but I am planning to apply with September score. Penn is probably my first choice school but I come from a really disadvantaged background, contribute a lot to expenses at home, and want to apply RD in case there is any hope for getting scholarships or having them match scholarships. Do you think this is far more risky than ED and likely to get me rejected or waitlisted/if not do you have any advice that would make my RD application more likely to stand out? Any insight or advice is appreciated, it's amazing that you're on here.

Stats:
4.0/164

Disadvantaged background--family tragedy made me want to go into PI and practice labor law. Worked a lot in undergrad, think 20+/week.

Three majors in 4 years

Student Government Elected Position, plus three other clubs

Research grants from well-known organizations

ACLU Legal Fellow as a ugrad, AmeriCorps

Lots of activism work with migrant workers domestically and
internationally and awards for it

One big National Scholarship win and two Rhodes/Truman/Marshall/Fulbright level finalist spots

you should absolutely retake the LSAT, especially if you have underperformed due to extraneous circumstances. As a 4.0 URM you have so much to gain with each point. Please don't settle for drowning yourself in student loan debt; you might not need higher than 164 to get into Penn, but it would be tragic to absorb a home mortgage worth of loans that will weigh you down for the next decade and limit your opportunities when you could swing a named scholarship at these schools -- especially if you want to pursue a career in public interest.

Applicants in your circumstance (http://mylsn.info/cuxwp2/) have not fared well at Penn; they generally gain admission to top schools with a $50-90K in tuition reduction. That leaves $200,000-240,000 in high interest-bearing loans upon graduation.

Give yourself 4-5 points on your LSAT, you're sweeping Harvard on down for admissions and copping a Levy at Penn, leaving you with $60-65K in debt.http://mylsn.info/kumyf0/

[foles]

.

[LSATneurotic]

Hi Dean Meeker,

Thank you for all the responses so far. I may have missed if this question was asked already, if so- just direct me to the post. There is a sense on these boards that Penn is one of the heavier yield protect schools and one of the ways they do so is to see whether a Why Penn essay (Penn values) was submitted. Could you comment on the thought process behind this if it exists? That is, why does Penn place a strong emphasis on this essay/yield protecting and how, based on your experience, is the Why Penn evaluated during the admissions process?

Thanks!

I'll handle this one Meeks:

Essentially, after years of falling in love with strong, prospective URMs only to see them pursue better opportunities, Penn grew tired of playing the jilted lover. Rather than focus on what they could do to attract high scoring URMs, Penn decided to place an embargo on qualified URMs and thus prevent further unrequited URM loves. Sure it's unethical, but at least they don't have to get their feelings hurt.

[DerekMeeker]

This question has not been asked, so I’m glad you asked it! I know there are many people that view Penn as a "heavier yield protect school." And my perspective may come under fire, but I will simply provide some factual historical information that probably has not been previously shared. When I arrived at Penn way back in the fall of 2002, the 1L class that had just started was overenrolled by about 70 students. Instead of a class of 250, it was a class of 320. In the prior admissions cycle, Penn’s applicant pool jumped from about 4,000 to more than 5,200. The school moved up in the rankings that year to #7 (from #10 the previous year). Consequently, the yield spiked and Penn ended up with a larger class. An overenrolled class can lead to challenges for the faculty, registrar, career services team, etc. Penn prides itself on its smaller size and communal environment; that is why many students choose Penn. So a class of over 300 is not what the 1Ls were expecting. Needless to say, the admission strategy during my tenure became more conservative (i.e., fewer offers, more holds/waitlists). I can't speak for the current administration, but I will say that Penn's applicant pool continued to grow since that time—peaking at over 6,400—and even in last year's national downturn was still over 5,800. (Point being, it's a large pool for a relatively small class.)

Assessing a candidate’s level of interest in a school is a tool that allows the Dean of Admissions to monitor yield. Interviews and “why x school” essays aid that process (while, yes, also lowering a school’s acceptance rate). Over the last several years, many of the top schools began offering either interviews or optional essays (or both) as part of their application process, both of which are used to assess an applicant’s interest and/or fit. So it certainly isn’t unique to Penn. Penn may be viewed as being more “yield protector” heavy than others, but its size relative to the number of applications it receives and the importance it places on community (and “Penn values”) factor heavily into the process. I know that many people think the admissions process is as simple as: high LSAT, high GPA, wrote the “why x school” essay – admit; high LSAT, high GPA, did not write the “why x school” essay – waitlist or reject. That simply is not the case. The process is thoughtful and deliberative, and Penn places great value on writing skills, one’s ability to articulate his or her goals, and fit. The Penn values essay, in addition to the other optional essays, provide applicants the opportunity to demonstrate those things. So, if an applicant is genuinely interested in possibly attending a school, he or she should take advantage of the opportunity to write additional essays if part of that school's application. (Tip: those essays can also influence merit scholarship decisions!)

Hi Dean Meeker,

Thank you for all the responses so far. I may have missed if this question was asked already, if so- just direct me to the post. There is a sense on these boards that Penn is one of the heavier yield protect schools and one of the ways they do so is to see whether a Why Penn essay (Penn values) was submitted. Could you comment on the thought process behind this if it exists? That is, why does Penn place a strong emphasis on this essay/yield protecting and how, based on your experience, is the Why Penn evaluated during the admissions process?

Thanks!

[EricHosmer]

Has anybody ever told you that you look like Jeff Goldblum?

[DerekMeeker]

Ha. Yes, I hear it about once a week. Though people used to say a "younger" Jeff Goldblum ... Now they just say Jeff Goldblum.

Has anybody ever told you that you look like Jeff Goldblum?

[bananafish]

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer our questions, Dean Meeker. I am wondering if you have any advice regarding submitting an LOCI to a school that places you on their waitlist? I have read and heard from many users on TLS and LSAT companies that it is common practice and something that you should definitely do if you are still interested in attending. However, when I spoke to my pre-law advisor from my undergraduate university, he told me essentially that LOCIs do not really exist. Rather, if I respond back to X school saying I want to stay on the waitlist, that is enough (which was not the case, as they said to respond if I did NOT want to remain on the waitlist). He said that beyond updating my file if something changes (a new job, promotion, etc), I should not bombard them with meaningless stuff. He also said it is okay to ask when X school anticipate's going to the waitlist and to email them around that time to let them know if I'm still interested, but only if I am SURE that I would attend.

1) Do you agree that it is pointless, and potentially a waste of the school's time, to submit an LOCI if you are waitlisted?

2) If I am sure that X school is my first choice, but I cannot necessarily pay sticker, is it still worth it to wait it out?

[DerekMeeker]

You're very welcome. And I'm sure glad you reached out, because the advice you received from your pre-law advisor is totally inaccurate. Letters of continuing interest (LOCIs) are very important if you remain interested in attending the school! (There may be a few exceptions; for example, Berkeley ranks its waitlist, so an LOCI won't influence the process there.) Typically, when the admissions committee does the first review of waitlisted candidates, they will reject any one who has not updated their file at all. That narrows the pool. Then they will start looking for candidates that have specific attributes they are seeking to round out the class (e.g., people with higher LSATs, people with higher GPAs, more geographic diversity, more women, etc.). Within each of these "groups" they will absolutely assess how interested the candidate is attending (and that is where the LOCI can be influential). Adcomms want to fill those remaining seats as quickly as possible, so they are looking for people who expressed interest and took the time to update their file and stay in touch (without being too persistent or aggressive, of course; I had people wait for me outside the law school and even show up at the building I lived in—I do NOT recommend this tactic. ). Most schools are still likely to call you and discuss your interest before admitting you off the waitlist (because of course it's easy enough to SAY in an LOCI that a school is your first choice); still, the LOCI is an important part of the process because it is a starting point for them when narrowing the group of candidates they will seriously consider for admission.

As to the second part of your question, yes, absolutely worth waiting it out. The admissions process is nothing if not unpredictable. Your profile may be one they really need later, and maybe by that time you will have other admissions offers with scholarship money. So you might be in a position to negotiate some financial assistance. Schools do sometimes award scholarships to candidates they admit from the waitlist. This practice has become more common in this market of declining applications.

Good luck!

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer our questions, Dean Meeker. I am wondering if you have any advice regarding submitting an LOCI to a school that places you on their waitlist? I have read and heard from many users on TLS and LSAT companies that it is common practice and something that you should definitely do if you are still interested in attending. However, when I spoke to my pre-law advisor from my undergraduate university, he told me essentially that LOCIs do not really exist. Rather, if I respond back to X school saying I want to stay on the waitlist, that is enough (which was not the case, as they said to respond if I did NOT want to remain on the waitlist). He said that beyond updating my file if something changes (a new job, promotion, etc), I should not bombard them with meaningless stuff. He also said it is okay to ask when X school anticipate's going to the waitlist and to email them around that time to let them know if I'm still interested, but only if I am SURE that I would attend.

1) Do you agree that it is pointless, and potentially a waste of the school's time, to submit an LOCI if you are waitlisted?

2) If I am sure that X school is my first choice, but I cannot necessarily pay sticker, is it still worth it to wait it out?

[appind]

.