Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions Forum

[DerekMeeker]

Hi Dean Meeker,

Quick question, So Im Afro Caribbean but I recently got my US permanent residency approved (have my alien registration#). I have no GPA because I went to school outside the U.S. but LSAC evaluated my transcript as "superior".

I'm studying for a December retake and Columbia is my target school, what score do you think I should be aiming for to even be considered since I have no GPA. I'm really curious about this because my scores are improving but my highest to date is 166 with an average of 162. I still have alot more work to do but I'm just curious.

[DerekMeeker]

Really tough to answer without knowing anything more about you, especially since there is no actual GPA. Your course of study, letters of recommendation, work experience, and other "soft factors" will be extremely important. Please feel free to PM me to provide a bit more information about your background/profile. Thanks.

Hi Dean Meeker,

Quick question, So Im Afro Caribbean but I recently got my US permanent residency approved (have my alien registration#). I have no GPA because I went to school outside the U.S. but LSAC evaluated my transcript as "superior".

I'm studying for a December retake and Columbia is my target school, what score do you think I should be aiming for to even be considered since I have no GPA. I'm really curious about this because my scores are improving but my highest to date is 166 with an average of 162. I still have alot more work to do but I'm just curious.

[DerekMeeker]

I think you could be competitive at other, higher-ranked schools and should definitely explore other options. (I've had clients get admitted to T14 schools with LSAT scores in the high 150s and 3.9+ GPAs.) I also agree that taking a year off to get work experience and possibly retake the LSAT (I'd want to know how you prepared for this one) could make a significant difference in your options and certainly increase your chances for merit scholarships. Feel free to send me a PM on here so I can learn a bit more about your background and application and I can guide you a bit more specifically.

Hello,

Applying to Law Schools now. I know absolutely no one in the legal field so I have had no positive input thus far. Hoping you can be of some help. I have a 4.1 GPA and 159 LSAT. I was a double major in History and Criminal Justice at the University of Alabama. I was accepted into the University of Alabama School of Law and was given a small (25 percentile) grant. I want to practice in the southern United States. Do you think it would be beneficial to look into some other schools, maybe some reachers or should I just take the money and relatively cheap instate tuition at Alabama. Any insight would be great.

Thank you.

Hell yes! take a year off, put all your effort into the LSAT and score a 170+. Dont waste that gpa. You can have full rides to t14s. You can save over a 100k but taking the year off and have much better job prospects. This can add up to millions over your career.

[DerekMeeker]

First, the typical format for law school resumes is NOT one-page. In fact, a 2-page resume for the law school application is more typical and often expected - especially for applicants who have full-time work experience. Law schools want to know how you spent your time during and since college - all jobs are important. In fact, one could argue the "factory" jobs are more important, because they give you a perspective not often represented in law school classes and teach you important skills and qualities that will greatly aid you as a future lawyer and advocate for others. So, write a 2-page resume if necessary to include all of that work experience, and consider separating it into 2 categories: e.g,, a "Related Experience" or "Professional Experience" section and an "Other Experience" section. That would allow you to highlight the "professional" jobs by listing them above the "other experience" jobs. Let me know if you have any other questions on this. The resume is an important component, especially for someone such as yourself, with such varied work experience. You could really maximize use of a 2-page resume to paint a broad, but complete overall picture of yourself, thus saving the space in your essays to delve deeply into one or a few experiences, or to convey parts of you not necessarily represented in the resume.

Hello Dean Meeker,

I had a question pertaining to my resume. I know that the typical format is one-page. I have a number of different work experiences dating back to around 2006. Most of my law school relevant experience is concentrated between 2007-2010. Post 2010, most of my jobs have been factory work just to keep my family afloat; I have a number of these. How do I represent this with my resume? I want the admissions team to be able to see those factors that are most relevant to my application for law school, but I don't want to raise skepticism as to what was going on during the "gap" periods.

[DerekMeeker]

Hello. First, the LSAT IS the one factor that can most "quickly" compensate for that GPA, because, as one my colleagues used to say it is a "blunt" instrument that carries great force. It gives the committee confidence that you have the analytical reasoning and critical reading/thinking skills that are necessary for law school, but not apparent from your academic record. That said, what the LSAT obviously does not measure is SUSTAINED, consistent performance over a longer period of time - which is also necessary for law school, since it is a grueling three-year grind. That is where the work experience comes into play. I would want to see that you had continuity with some of your experience, perhaps increased responsibility and achievement in a job, and use of high-level skills (perhaps writing/research skills, and again, critical thinking, analytical skills, etc.) with a strong work ethic. I would also want to see strong letters of recommendation that speak to your work ethic, focus, commitment, discipline, dependability. Finally, the essays are critical as a measurement of your writing skills (since again, evidence of such may be lacking from the academic record - and work record, depending on what types of jobs you held).

Hi Dean Meeker,

Within this same topic of older, more "non-traditional" applicants: What's your opinion on how effectively an applicant may be able to overcome a low GPA/poor transcript with a significant amount of time out of undergrad (assuming no extenuating circumstances that led to the low GPA and also assuming a competitive LSAT around the median)? Are there certain things you found yourself looking for when picking up a file and seeing the candidate is a significant "splitter" with 10+ years out of undergrad? And, finally, understanding it's not purely a numbers game, it is the case that it may just boil down to "this person has an impressive post-undergraduate record and will likely succeed here, but the GPA is just too darn low/we don't need this LSAT enough to justify admitting? Thank you for your time and all the excellent advice![/quote]

[Eddie5290]

If I go to a humanatarin type law school (CUNY Law School, New York City) would I also be able to practice other types of law or for exam constitutional law. My goal is to teach US History in the undergraduate level and maybe at a law school level and if so would I be able to teach Constitutional Law?

[DerekMeeker]

Yes, although CUNY is a public interest focused law school, it offers a broad array of courses in other areas (similar to other law schools). And although the majority of their graduates tend to work in public interest and government positions, a number of them also work in private practice and business. If teaching History or Constitutional Law is your goal, you might also consider a joint JD/MA program or JD/PhD program.

If I go to a humanatarin type law school (CUNY Law School, New York City) would I also be able to practice other types of law or for exam constitutional law. My goal is to teach US History in the undergraduate level and maybe at a law school level and if so would I be able to teach Constitutional Law?

[HTBA15]

Dean Meeker - I have a silly albeit serious question. I submitted my application to my #1 law school several days ago. I was just offered, however, a pretty 'big deal' internship which I have accepted to begin next semester. How should I notify the law school about this change in my resume/let them know about it?

Thank you!

[DerekMeeker]

Sending an email to the Admissions Office explaining that you have an updated resume (and attaching the updated resume) is typically the way to do it. However, you should contact that school to confirm, because I believe there are a few schools out there that do not want updates sent via email.

Dean Meeker - I have a silly albeit serious question. I submitted my application to my #1 law school several days ago. I was just offered, however, a pretty 'big deal' internship which I have accepted to begin next semester. How should I notify the law school about this change in my resume/let them know about it?

Thank you!

[bellamimi]

Hi Dean Meeker,

As an older student I really need to try to enroll in a program next year, however, I got a late start on the LSAT preparation and only have about a month. I am up to about a 168-169 but feel confident that with another few months I could possibly get in the 174-175 range. If I apply using my December scores but then get much better in February would I have time to update my application? Worst case would it be possible to withdraw my applications and still apply again the following year with the stronger score? Even if they do consider it, would it be too late to be considered for scholarships?

Thank you!

[DerekMeeker]

Hi there. The February LSAT *could* allow you to update your file, but the risk is that schools may make a decision on your application (and not in your favor) before they get the February test results. You may want to put together the best application that you can and apply as soon as possible with your December LSAT score (but move forward with your plan to take the Feb test). See what happens with your results. Maybe you will get waitlisted at some of your reach schools–in which case, the February LSAT could be the factor that will seal the deal and get you off the waitlist. Even if a school rejects you before the February LSAT results are in, you could inform the school that you retook the LSAT, got a higher score, and ask the school to reconsider your application. Not all schools will even entertain a reconsideration request, but there are some, particularly in this market of declining applications, that absolutely will. Ultimately, if you are unhappy with the results of this admissions cycle, you may absolutely reapply next year, with your higher score and a much earlier submission of your application.

Scholarships, like admission decisions, are made on a rolling basis. So, again, you are at somewhat of a disadvantage with a later application (particularly if you're banking on the February LSAT to be the draw for a scholarship award). But it all depends on the school's yield of scholarship applicants they've already admitted and how badly they want you. The bottom line is: if a school really wants you, they will find a seat for you (and scholarship money if your profile warrants it). Most schools aren't over-enrolling these days, so the February LSAT isn't as detrimental to one's chances as it was during the peak law school application years.

Good luck! Please let me know if you have other questions. (And keep me posted!)

Hi Dean Meeker,

As an older student I really need to try to enroll in a program next year, however, I got a late start on the LSAT preparation and only have about a month. I am up to about a 168-169 but feel confident that with another few months I could possibly get in the 174-175 range. If I apply using my December scores but then get much better in February would I have time to update my application? Worst case would it be possible to withdraw my applications and still apply again the following year with the stronger score? Even if they do consider it, would it be too late to be considered for scholarships?

Thank you!

[whosinthehousejc]

Hi Dean Meeker, thanks for taking questions!

I've got a couple of questions for you:

I'm a splitter, mid-170s, 3.6-ish, several years intl. freelance journalism WE with big name collaborators and clients. On paper, I feel like I oughta be a shoe-in at a lot of T14. Unfortunately, in the course of pursuing this WE I think I've burned some adcom bridges. Two years ago I was offered a full ride at my home state school, and admitted at the only T6 I applied to. Deposited, then withdrew after interesting work came up. I assumed I'd get more experience and come back for more $$$ the next year. Second year, the same thing happened, good admits/schollies, deposited, withdrew, did more work in order to try to get more $$$.

Looks like schools are concerned about being thrice bitten, as I was rejected from the home state school (my top choice, from which I have since requested reconsideration w/ an addendum expressing intention to enroll this fall), and despite going complete in mid-September, haven't heard from many T14, who appear to be already admitting others w/ similar numbers.

So, my questions are:

1. Might word have gotten around that I'm perceived as a flight risk/non-serious?
2. Should I try to preempt adcom concerns by sending a (post-app) addendum explaining the 2x reapp-ing?

Thanks for the insight.

[bellamimi]

Hi there. The February LSAT *could* allow you to update your file, but the risk is that schools may make a decision on your application (and not in your favor) before they get the February test results. You may want to put together the best application that you can and apply as soon as possible with your December LSAT score (but move forward with your plan to take the Feb test). See what happens with your results. Maybe you will get waitlisted at some of your reach schools–in which case, the February LSAT could be the factor that will seal the deal and get you off the waitlist. Even if a school rejects you before the February LSAT results are in, you could inform the school that you retook the LSAT, got a higher score, and ask the school to reconsider your application. Not all schools will even entertain a reconsideration request, but there are some, particularly in this market of declining applications, that absolutely will. Ultimately, if you are unhappy with the results of this admissions cycle, you may absolutely reapply next year, with your higher score and a much earlier submission of your application.

Scholarships, like admission decisions, are made on a rolling basis. So, again, you are at somewhat of a disadvantage with a later application (particularly if you're banking on the February LSAT to be the draw for a scholarship award). But it all depends on the school's yield of scholarship applicants they've already admitted and how badly they want you. The bottom line is: if a school really wants you, they will find a seat for you (and scholarship money if your profile warrants it). Most schools aren't over-enrolling these days, so the February LSAT isn't as detrimental to one's chances as it was during the peak law school application years.

Good luck! Please let me know if you have other questions. (And keep me posted!)

Hi Dean Meeker,

As an older student I really need to try to enroll in a program next year, however, I got a late start on the LSAT preparation and only have about a month. I am up to about a 168-169 but feel confident that with another few months I could possibly get in the 174-175 range. If I apply using my December scores but then get much better in February would I have time to update my application? Worst case would it be possible to withdraw my applications and still apply again the following year with the stronger score? Even if they do consider it, would it be too late to be considered for scholarships?

Thank you!

I feel better but I will still put everything on December test. Hope I can get best of it:) Thank you again, Dean Meeker!

[DerekMeeker]

Hello, and you're welcome!

1. Might word have gotten around that I'm perceived as a flight risk/non-serious?

I assume you mean might word have gotten around to other schools (i.e., schools to which you had not applied previously but to which you did apply this year)? That is unlikely. I don't think Admissions Deans have time to be communicating about individual applicants to other schools (unless there is a serious issue of some sort, e.g., an applicant reneging on a binding ED acceptance). But of course the schools to which you had previously applied will have your prior applications, so after two withdrawals, they will likely perceive you as not serious, noncommittal, etc.

2. Should I try to preempt adcom concerns by sending a (post-app) addendum explaining the 2x reapp-ing?

Yes, absolutely. I would want to see that to allay my concerns. Send me a PM if you want to discuss in a bit more detail.

Best,
DM

Hi Dean Meeker, thanks for taking questions!

I've got a couple of questions for you:

I'm a splitter, mid-170s, 3.6-ish, several years intl. freelance journalism WE with big name collaborators and clients. On paper, I feel like I oughta be a shoe-in at a lot of T14. Unfortunately, in the course of pursuing this WE I think I've burned some adcom bridges. Two years ago I was offered a full ride at my home state school, and admitted at the only T6 I applied to. Deposited, then withdrew after interesting work came up. I assumed I'd get more experience and come back for more $$$ the next year. Second year, the same thing happened, good admits/schollies, deposited, withdrew, did more work in order to try to get more $$$.

Looks like schools are concerned about being thrice bitten, as I was rejected from the home state school (my top choice, from which I have since requested reconsideration w/ an addendum expressing intention to enroll this fall), and despite going complete in mid-September, haven't heard from many T14, who appear to be already admitting others w/ similar numbers.

So, my questions are:

1. Might word have gotten around that I'm perceived as a flight risk/non-serious?
2. Should I try to preempt adcom concerns by sending a (post-app) addendum explaining the 2x reapp-ing?

Thanks for the insight.

[LawHopeful90]

Hi Dean Meeker - Thanks for the great advice in this thread!

What is the best way to reapply to schools that waitlisted you? I see that some schools like Penn require new recommendations and an updated personal statement if you were denied. Does the same thing apply to waitlisted applicants? How do law schools feel about only slightly updated personal statements from reapplications that haven't done much more since the last admissions cycle. Thanks!

[meinmark]

Hello Dean Meeker:

Thanks for the helpful advice in this thread.

I have a 164/3.90. I am an international student, and graduated from University of Illinois this May. I am now interning in a big law firm in China. I have taken LSAT for three times and 164 is my highest one. Since I've taken three times, I am afraid that I could not retake the LSAT recently. Besides the personal statement and a diversity statement, I have two recommendation letters from my professors, and none from employers of previous internships.

I have applied for UPenn for Early Decision Round I with three optional essays explaining how I can contribute to the Penn Law community and Why Penn Law. I have also applied to many other schools for Regular Decision. I was accepted by William and Mary several days ago with 33k scholarship. However, I am really eagering to get into a T14, and wondering how the ED would help me enhance the possiblity to get into UPenn, if any? I am also applying to other T14s, what are your suggestion on my application to those schools? How can I improve my softs? Which schools you think I might have more chance to get in? Maybe I should get another letter from my previous employers? If so, can I add the new letter to the completed application of the schools I've already applied?

Thanks for any advice!

[DerekMeeker]

Hello, you're very welcome!

Basically, whether you were waitlisted or rejected you have to ascertain, as best you can, where the weaknesses were in your application that kept you from being admitted. If you submit the same application or a very similar one with little change, you are likely to get the same decision. So, obtaining a new letter of recommendation, for example, is unlikely to result in a different decision if a low LSAT was the primary weakness in the original application. Some schools do like to see updated letters of recommendation, however, because the assumption is that you will have had some time in between application cycles to do something else (even if it was simply taking additional courses to finish your degree). The same can be said for the personal statement; the thought is that perhaps your perspective has changed due to additional experience in the interim or perhaps your academic and/or career goals have become clearer, so you should update your personal statement to reflect that. The decision may have simply been the result of applying too late in the cycle (particularly if you were a splitter or bubble candidate), in which case you'd obviously want to submit your application much earlier the following cycle. So the "best way to reapply" to schools that waitlisted or rejected you will vary from applicant to applicant. Now, schools understand, of course, that some applicants who were on the waitlist through the summer and ultimately rejected will be reapplying just a few months later (which sounds like is the case for you). Thus, it may simply not be feasible for applicants in that position to get another stellar letter of recommendation or to write a wholly different essay. But the same rule applies: you must try to identify the weakness or weaknesses in your application that led to not getting admitted and improve in those areas. So, to answer your question as far as how law schools feel about only "slightly updated personal statements from reapplications"—if the original personal statement contributed to the decision, i.e., that it simply didn't stand out or wasn't stellar (but they kept you on the waitlist for some other factor, e.g., maybe they'd need your GPA later)—then they are likely to render the same decision.

Hi Dean Meeker - Thanks for the great advice in this thread!

What is the best way to reapply to schools that waitlisted you? I see that some schools like Penn require new recommendations and an updated personal statement if you were denied. Does the same thing apply to waitlisted applicants? How do law schools feel about only slightly updated personal statements from reapplications that haven't done much more since the last admissions cycle. Thanks!

[DerekMeeker]

Hello, and you're welcome.

You've got an outstanding academic record, 2 academic recommendation letters, you're getting great work experience, and you've sat for the LSAT three times. Really, the only other thing you could do is to submit a letter from one of your employers. If you are confident you could get an excellent letter from one of them, I would submit it as it would provide an additional perspective from someone (but you can wait to see if you get held or waitlisted at some schools and send it then). Otherwise, you've done all you can do at this point. And congratulations on getting admitted with a scholarship to William & Mary; that's fantastic and a good sign. I'm sure you will get some other great acceptances. Your chances at Penn are quite good, particularly since you applied ED round 1; that will give you a bit of a bump given where your LSAT is. Seems like you also will have a good shot at Berkeley, Michigan, Cornell and Georgetown.

Keep me posted!

DM

Hello Dean Meeker:

Thanks for the helpful advice in this thread.

I have a 164/3.90. I am an international student, and graduated from University of Illinois this May. I am now interning in a big law firm in China. I have taken LSAT for three times and 164 is my highest one. Since I've taken three times, I am afraid that I could not retake the LSAT recently. Besides the personal statement and a diversity statement, I have two recommendation letters from my professors, and none from employers of previous internships.

I have applied for UPenn for Early Decision Round I with three optional essays explaining how I can contribute to the Penn Law community and Why Penn Law. I have also applied to many other schools for Regular Decision. I was accepted by William and Mary several days ago with 33k scholarship. However, I am really eagering to get into a T14, and wondering how the ED would help me enhance the possiblity to get into UPenn, if any? I am also applying to other T14s, what are your suggestion on my application to those schools? How can I improve my softs? Which schools you think I might have more chance to get in? Maybe I should get another letter from my previous employers? If so, can I add the new letter to the completed application of the schools I've already applied?

Thanks for any advice!

[mist4bison]

.

[DerekMeeker]

Hi there. I would advise listing TFA on your resume and writing a brief addendum to explain why you left. Given the circumstances, it won't be held against you. There is great respect for the TFA application and hiring process and, of course, for the experience—and you did stay for almost an entire year, which tells me you tried to stick it out despite the circumstances. Feel free to PM me if you have additional questions.

Hi Dean Meeker,

I have a question regarding my time in TFA. I participated in the program from June 13-Apr 14 and taught at a typical low-income, failing school from Aug 13-Apr 14. It wasn't an enjoyable experience--I won't get into details, but to say it was a violent, unsafe atmosphere would be fair--and ended up leaving the school in April. The charter board running the school had plans to pull out from the school in June 14, which they did. TFA also moved all corp members working at the school to other schools in June 14 (even after only 1 year in TFA). The charter board just released a decision to shut the school down completely in June 15, citing that it barely met 2 of the 20 standards measured.

My question is: Should I put TFA on my resume/as a post-grad experience when applying to law schools? Or should I simply list the school as my employer and leave TFA out of the picture? Obviously, it's a prestigious program and difficult to be accepted into. However, I didn't complete the program. There are also extenuating circumstances that more than explain my decision to leave, which I'm happy to explain if you'd like. I'm wondering if putting TFA would hurt me, since adcoms know that it's a 2 year program and I only completed 9 months of it.

[canon1845]

Hi Deen Meeker

Is it acceptable to apply to US Law Schools with 3-year bachelors degree from a foreign institution?

For example, all British, Australian and New Zealand universities are based on 3 year bachelors.

Does it vary from school to school or is it a non-factor?

Thank for all your help.

[Mal Reynolds]

Yes, although CUNY is a public interest focused law school, it offers a broad array of courses in other areas (similar to other law schools). And although the majority of their graduates tend to work in public interest and government positions, a number of them also work in private practice and business. If teaching History or Constitutional Law is your goal, you might also consider a joint JD/MA program or JD/PhD program.

If I go to a humanatarin type law school (CUNY Law School, New York City) would I also be able to practice other types of law or for exam constitutional law. My goal is to teach US History in the undergraduate level and maybe at a law school level and if so would I be able to teach Constitutional Law?

Really great advice here. Thanks Dean Shill. I mean Dean Meeker!!

[fats provolone]

god that is painful from all sides

[appind]

.

[jbagelboy]

Yes, although CUNY is a public interest focused law school, it offers a broad array of courses in other areas (similar to other law schools). And although the majority of their graduates tend to work in public interest and government positions, a number of them also work in private practice and business. If teaching History or Constitutional Law is your goal, you might also consider a joint JD/MA program or JD/PhD program.

If I go to a humanatarin type law school (CUNY Law School, New York City) would I also be able to practice other types of law or for exam constitutional law. My goal is to teach US History in the undergraduate level and maybe at a law school level and if so would I be able to teach Constitutional Law?

Really great advice here. Thanks Dean Shill. I mean Dean Meeker!!

I wonder how many CUNY law grads have become constitutional law or history professors at actual universities in the past 50 years.