Former T14 Dean of Admissions taking your questions Forum

[dirac]

I got my undergraduate degree from China and my major was Physics. The GPA system was very different there and my GPA would be converted to 3.01 according to LSAC standard. Fortunately they are not going to report this misleading GPA but they are still going to provide a written analysis (mine will be "below average" I think). I got my PhD degree of engineering from a top 25 US University and my graduate GPA was 3.87. I am currently an assistant professor in a small school and would like to become a patent attorney in the future. Do you think the T-14 law schools will weigh my undergraduate GPA heavily (I graduated from college about 10 years ago) or my graduate GPA and work experience can make up for it (actually my ranking in my undergraduate class was pretty good; it was just a different GPA system)? By the way, my LSAT is 168, not excellent, but not bad either.

Thanks.

[ballcaps]

Dean Meeker,

How would law schools view a candidate who reports being both white and Mexican, in terms of being an URM?

Thanks so much for taking the time to do this. You're helping relieve a lot of anxious people, including myself.

[DerekMeeker]

First, it would be beneficial to write an addendum regarding your undergraduate record, particularly to discuss the grading system and your ranking since you indicate it was pretty good. That will also allow you an opportunity to highlight the rigor of your graduate program and your outstanding record - thus supporting an assertion that your undergraduate grades from 10 years ago are not reflective of your potential today. (I am assuming you have some strong letters of recommendation from grad school faculty and/or your current employer/colleagues?) Given the number of years that have passed, your graduate record at a top school in a very rigorous curriculum, your work experience in academia, and hopefully strong LoRs, your UGPA will not be weighed heavily. Get your applications in as early as possible. Top 7 schools will be a reach (Penn is probably where you are most competitive - possibly NYU because they admit a high percentage of their applicants), but I do think you will be a competitive applicant at a number of the other T14 schools, particularly those with a strong IP faculty/curriculum. The demand for IP attorneys at top firms remains higher than the supply. That should count for something. Best of luck!

I got my undergraduate degree from China and my major was Physics. The GPA system was very different there and my GPA would be converted to 3.01 according to LSAC standard. Fortunately they are not going to report this misleading GPA but they are still going to provide a written analysis (mine will be "below average" I think). I got my PhD degree of engineering from a top 25 US University and my graduate GPA was 3.87. I am currently an assistant professor in a small school and would like to become a patent attorney in the future. Do you think the T-14 law schools will weigh my undergraduate GPA heavily (I graduated from college about 10 years ago) or my graduate GPA and work experience can make up for it (actually my ranking in my undergraduate class was pretty good; it was just a different GPA system)? By the way, my LSAT is 168, not excellent, but not bad either.

Thanks.

[DetroitRed]

Hi Dean Meeker,

Thanks for the perspective you provide to this board. I have a question concerning GPA discrepancies. My LSDAS GPA is about .10 higher than my degree GPA because of some college classes I took during high school. Are schools in the T14 (and specifically the top 5) likely to consider me on the basis of my LSDAS or degree GPA?

[dirac]

Dear Dean Meeker,

Thank you very much!

[DerekMeeker]

Hello. They look at both GPAs and will review all transcripts, but the LSDAS GPA will carry more weight because that is the GPA that gets reported to the ABA (and, hence, to US NEWS for rankings).

Hi Dean Meeker,

Thanks for the perspective you provide to this board. I have a question concerning GPA discrepancies. My LSDAS GPA is about .10 higher than my degree GPA because of some college classes I took during high school. Are schools in the T14 (and specifically the top 5) likely to consider me on the basis of my LSDAS or degree GPA?

[DetroitRed]

Awesome. Thanks for the timely response.

[niplomo]

Hello,

First of all thank you for answering questions for us applicants. My question is how Early Decision and generally making it known that a school is your first choice plays in the admission process.

For example my dream school is Georgetown and my GPA is slightly below their 25th and my LSAT is slightly below their median. I mentioned how they are my top choice in my personal statement and how attending will assist me in my career goals. I also applied Early Decision. Assuming weak softs and strong recommendation (K-JD) how would this affect an admission decision.

Thank you

[DerekMeeker]

Hello. Applying Early Decision is the best way to indicate a school is your first choice (because, of course you are bound to attend if admitted!). It will slightly improve your chances for admission, so it is certainly a good strategy when your numbers are below both medians for the school. And, discussing your career goals and tailoring your applications (via the personal statement or supplemental essay) to explain how a specific school will support those goals is also beneficial. The bottom line is, the pool of candidates with numbers similar to what you describe is enormous and thus very competitive; anything you can do to differentiate your application within that pool will increase your chances for admission.

Hello,

First of all thank you for answering questions for us applicants. My question is how Early Decision and generally making it known that a school is your first choice plays in the admission process.

For example my dream school is Georgetown and my GPA is slightly below their 25th and my LSAT is slightly below their median. I mentioned how they are my top choice in my personal statement and how attending will assist me in my career goals. I also applied Early Decision. Assuming weak softs and strong recommendation (K-JD) how would this affect an admission decision.

Thank you

[niplomo]

Hello. Applying Early Decision is the best way to indicate a school is your first choice (because, of course you are bound to attend if admitted!). It will slightly improve your chances for admission, so it is certainly a good strategy when your numbers are below both medians for the school. And, discussing your career goals and tailoring your applications (via the personal statement or supplemental essay) to explain how a specific school will support those goals is also beneficial. The bottom line is, the pool of candidates with numbers similar to what you describe is enormous and thus very competitive; anything you can do to differentiate your application within that pool will increase your chances for admission.

Hello,

First of all thank you for answering questions for us applicants. My question is how Early Decision and generally making it known that a school is your first choice plays in the admission process.

For example my dream school is Georgetown and my GPA is slightly below their 25th and my LSAT is slightly below their median. I mentioned how they are my top choice in my personal statement and how attending will assist me in my career goals. I also applied Early Decision. Assuming weak softs and strong recommendation (K-JD) how would this affect an admission decision.

Thank you

I appreciate you taking the time to reply! Thank you

[Wieters]

Hi Dean Meeker,

Thank you for already providing many thoughtful and helpful replies. Your blog has also aided me in composing my personal statement.

Separately, I am curious as to how admissions committees handle transcripts. Do they review the applicant's actual transcript, or is it typical for them to just consider the Academic Summary Report?

I ask because my GPA is middling (3.6x) with a couple withdrawals (non-puntative and not noted on the ASR) and two semesters with GPAs hovering around 3.2ish (otherwise 3.8+).

Thanks again.

[DerekMeeker]

Hello. Glad you are finding the information and blogs helpful!

They will review the actual transcript to look more closely at course selection, course load, and grade trends - particularly in cases where there may be questions/issues. When I reviewed files, I always read the ASR first to get the overall snapshot of an applicant's academic performance, how they compared to other candidates, etc. What I saw in the ASR then influenced how much time I spent reviewing the transcripts. So, for example, if I had an applicant from a school with which I was very familiar, who had a substantive/rigorous major, and consistently high grades across all semesters, my review of the actual transcript would be pretty quick. But if the ASR illuminated questions - inconsistent grade patterns, school or major with which I was less familiar, lower grades/higher LSAT score, etc. - then I would review the transcript in much more detail.

Hi Dean Meeker,

Thank you for already providing many thoughtful and helpful replies. Your blog has also aided me in composing my personal statement.

Separately, I am curious as to how admissions committees handle transcripts. Do they review the applicant's actual transcript, or is it typical for them to just consider the Academic Summary Report?

I ask because my GPA is middling (3.6x) with a couple withdrawals (non-puntative and not noted on the ASR) and two semesters with GPAs hovering around 3.2ish (otherwise 3.8+).

Thanks again.

[tu_wangclan]

Hello Dean Meeker:

Thanks for the helpful advice in this thread.

I have a 169/3.87 (Sept. 2014 LSAT, first take, retaking in December)

Would the boost of applying earlier (mid Nov. vs. early Jan.) to any of the T14 with my current stats (In particular Duke PT, Georgetown, UPenn, Cornell, UChi) outweigh the benefits of a potential LSAT increase but later application submission?

I am planning in having my applications in by the December test date but I am wondering if, for some of the school I am already competitive for, I should not tell them to hold off on reviewing until I receive my Dec. score. Or will schools see that I am registered and hold off regardless?

Basically, I'm wondering if hedging my bets and taking advantage of an earlier application may be advisable for some of the T14 schools, rather than asking them to wait and risking no score increase from my Dec. LSAT.


Thanks for any advice

[canuckofchicago]

Hello Dean Meeker.

First of all thank you for taking the time to "talk" with us.
I was wondering, in your experience, how do Adcomms view applications of those who are older that most of the other applications? For instance, are those applicants that are in their 30's at a significant disadvantage because of their age or does it give them a leg up because of the "real world" experience by way of employment and other extra cirricular activities?

Thanks,

[WichitaShocker]

Hello. Glad you are finding the information and blogs helpful!

They will review the actual transcript to look more closely at course selection, course load, and grade trends - particularly in cases where there may be questions/issues. When I reviewed files, I always read the ASR first to get the overall snapshot of an applicant's academic performance, how they compared to other candidates, etc. What I saw in the ASR then influenced how much time I spent reviewing the transcripts. So, for example, if I had an applicant from a school with which I was very familiar, who had a substantive/rigorous major, and consistently high grades across all semesters, my review of the actual transcript would be pretty quick. But if the ASR illuminated questions - inconsistent grade patterns, school or major with which I was less familiar, lower grades/higher LSAT score, etc. - then I would review the transcript in much more detail.

Hi Dean Meeker,

Thank you for already providing many thoughtful and helpful replies. Your blog has also aided me in composing my personal statement.

Separately, I am curious as to how admissions committees handle transcripts. Do they review the applicant's actual transcript, or is it typical for them to just consider the Academic Summary Report?

I ask because my GPA is middling (3.6x) with a couple withdrawals (non-puntative and not noted on the ASR) and two semesters with GPAs hovering around 3.2ish (otherwise 3.8+).

Thanks again.

Hello Dean,

Piggy backing this answer. On the ASR it lists your schools Median GPA, what is a good range for your school to be? For instance my school is a 3.21, is that considered high, low or basically average?

[DerekMeeker]

Lots of great questions coming in. And tough ones. I have several thoughts on this one.

First, if you submit your applications and the schools complete them, they will proceed with the review process unless you specifically request that they hold your file until they receive the December LSAT score. In other words, as soon as the school has everything that is required to complete your application, the file gets referred to the committee for review (or, more precisely, gets put into the queue for review). So if you don't want to risk a decision being made at a particular school before it receives that December score, you must let them know.

Now, UChicago is obviously the biggest reach of the schools you list, because your current numbers put you below both their medians (albeit only slightly below). If you retake and get the same (or lower) LSAT score, it will be even more of a reach to be admitted in January. So, it may benefit you more to apply to UChicago now (without Dec. LSAT), because timing will be more critical here (if a 169 is ultimately your highest score). If the rest of your application is strong, chances are they would at least hold or waitlist you now. (I don't think they'd outright reject, but there is always a chance. And of course, I have seen nothing else in your application, so I am basing this solely on numeric competitiveness.)

Penn and Duke are also wildcards. I think you could go either way with these two schools in terms of applying with the current score or waiting for the next score. Here is why. Again, assuming the rest of your application is strong, they may either admit you outright now or they will place you on hold or waitlist because they will want to see how the pool shapes up. These schools may believe, at this point, that there is a chance for them to get their LSAT medians back up to where they were a few years ago (i.e., +1 point to a 170). Apparently, there are more applicants in the 170+ range applying to law school again, and 2 of the top 4 schools (Stanford and Columbia) got their LSAT medians back up in this last cycle. So, I would guess these schools will be a bit more conservative in making offers to "bubble" candidates. Therefore, you may very well be put on hold/waitlist now - in which case, your Dec LSAT score, if higher, could move you off hold/WL more quickly. Or, if it stays the same (or is lower), you're in no worse position, because they were holding you anyway to see how the pool shaped up. And if they end up needing more applicants with a 169, there you will be, ready for admission. (I think the same will hold for UChicago - i.e., they will be conservative with bubble candidates because they may think they can raise their median to 171 - but, as discussed above, UChicago is already more of a reach for you, so why not get the app in as early as possible.)

Your current numbers make you very competitive for Cornell and Georgetown, so I don't see the need to wait to submit those applications (or to wait for Dec. LSAT score).

Do keep me posted. It will be very interesting to see how this cycle plays out.

Hello Dean Meeker:

Thanks for the helpful advice in this thread.

I have a 169/3.87 (Sept. 2014 LSAT, first take, retaking in December)

Would the boost of applying earlier (mid Nov. vs. early Jan.) to any of the T14 with my current stats (In particular Duke PT, Georgetown, UPenn, Cornell, UChi) outweigh the benefits of a potential LSAT increase but later application submission?

I am planning in having my applications in by the December test date but I am wondering if, for some of the school I am already competitive for, I should not tell them to hold off on reviewing until I receive my Dec. score. Or will schools see that I am registered and hold off regardless?

Basically, I'm wondering if hedging my bets and taking advantage of an earlier application may be advisable for some of the T14 schools, rather than asking them to wait and risking no score increase from my Dec. LSAT.


Thanks for any advice

[DerekMeeker]

Hello. I would say 3.21 is pretty average, albeit toward the lower end of the middle.

Hello Dean,

Piggy backing this answer. On the ASR it lists your schools Median GPA, what is a good range for your school to be? For instance my school is a 3.21, is that considered high, low or basically average?[/quote]

[DerekMeeker]

Hello. You're very welcome.

Applicants in their 30s are absolutely NOT at a disadvantage. It is a distinguishing factor, so use it to your advantage. Having work experience, a more developed skill set, and additional perspective and maturity from experiences and challenges perhaps not yet faced by early to mid 20-somethings are significantly positive factors. It will be important, of course, to convey in your application why you have made the decision to change careers and go to law school, and to articulate what your new career goals are.

Hello Dean Meeker.

First of all thank you for taking the time to "talk" with us.
I was wondering, in your experience, how do Adcomms view applications of those who are older that most of the other applications? For instance, are those applicants that are in their 30's at a significant disadvantage because of their age or does it give them a leg up because of the "real world" experience by way of employment and other extra cirricular activities?

Thanks,

[WeeBey]

Hello Dean Meeker,

1. Do schools take your GPA at face value as it is shown on LSAC, or do they also look into your actual transcripts? I go to a Canadian school, and on our transcripts, they show the class avg. and for the courses I took (science major) the total GPA of the class averages is a 2.3

2. What do you make of a school with a 3.09/155 average?

3. Do non-resident aliens recieve any URM boost in the admissions process?

Thank you in advance!

[Ex Cearulo]

Hello. You're very welcome.

Applicants in their 30s are absolutely NOT at a disadvantage. It is a distinguishing factor, so use it to your advantage. Having work experience, a more developed skill set, and additional perspective and maturity from experiences and challenges perhaps not yet faced by early to mid 20-somethings are significantly positive factors. It will be important, of course, to convey in your application why you have made the decision to change careers and go to law school, and to articulate what your new career goals are.

Hi Dean Meeker,

Within this same topic of older, more "non-traditional" applicants: What's your opinion on how effectively an applicant may be able to overcome a low GPA/poor transcript with a significant amount of time out of undergrad (assuming no extenuating circumstances that led to the low GPA and also assuming a competitive LSAT around the median)? Are there certain things you found yourself looking for when picking up a file and seeing the candidate is a significant "splitter" with 10+ years out of undergrad? And, finally, understanding it's not purely a numbers game, it is the case that it may just boil down to "this person has an impressive post-undergraduate record and will likely succeed here, but the GPA is just too darn low/we don't need this LSAT enough to justify admitting? Thank you for your time and all the excellent advice!

[sashafierce]

Hi Dean Meeker,

Quick question, So Im Afro Caribbean but I recently got my US permanent residency approved (have my alien registration#). I have no GPA because I went to school outside the U.S. but LSAC evaluated my transcript as "superior".

I'm studying for a December retake and Columbia is my target school, what score do you think I should be aiming for to even be considered since I have no GPA. I'm really curious about this because my scores are improving but my highest to date is 166 with an average of 162. I still have alot more work to do but I'm just curious.

[atruegentleman]

Hello Dean Meeker,

I had a question pertaining to my resume. I know that the typical format is one-page. I have a number of different work experiences dating back to around 2006. Most of my law school relevant experience is concentrated between 2007-2010. Post 2010, most of my jobs have been factory work just to keep my family afloat; I have a number of these. How do I represent this with my resume? I want the admissions team to be able to see those factors that are most relevant to my application for law school, but I don't want to raise skepticism as to what was going on during the "gap" periods.

[scooter123]

Hello,

Applying to Law Schools now. I know absolutely no one in the legal field so I have had no positive input thus far. Hoping you can be of some help. I have a 4.1 GPA and 159 LSAT. I was a double major in History and Criminal Justice at the University of Alabama. I was accepted into The University of Alabama School of Law and was given a small (25 percentile) grant. I want to practice in the southern United States. Do you think it would be beneficial to look into some other schools, maybe some reachers or should I just take the money and relatively cheap instate tuition at Alabama. Any insight would be great.

Thank you.

[WeeBey]

Hello,

Applying to Law Schools now. I know absolutely no one in the legal field so I have had no positive input thus far. Hoping you can be of some help. I have a 4.1 GPA and 159 LSAT. I was a double major in History and Criminal Justice at the University of Alabama. I was accepted into the University of Alabama School of Law and was given a small (25 percentile) grant. I want to practice in the southern United States. Do you think it would be beneficial to look into some other schools, maybe some reachers or should I just take the money and relatively cheap instate tuition at Alabama. Any insight would be great.

Thank you.

Hell yes! take a year off, put all your effort into the LSAT and score a 170+. Dont waste that gpa. You can have full rides to t14s. You can save over a 100k but taking the year off and have much better job prospects. This can add up to millions over your career.

[DerekMeeker]

Hello Dean Meeker,


Hello. While the LSAC cumulative GPA carries great weight in the process, schools do not take that GPA as face value; they will consider the school you attended, your major and degree of difficulty, courseload, breadth/depth of coursework, grade trends, and how you performed relative to your peers at the school. (And they will certainly take into consideration the degree GPA if it is different than the LSAC cumulative GPA.) They will also consider extenuating circumstances, e.g., whether you worked while going to school.

A mean GPA of 3.09 indicates there is little to no grade inflation at the school. The mean LSAT score, however, doesn't tell much without additional context. Overall, it's slightly above average - but what is more important is how your performance compares to those numbers and to the overall pool of applicants. At a top 10 law school, many applicants come from schools with a mean LSAT of 160+. In other law schools' applicant pools, a school with a mean LSAT of 155 may be on the higher end. But at the end of the day, your individual performance within that environment matters more.

Whether a non-resident alien would receive a "boost" in the admission process is more a question of - what unique perspective would you bring to a law school community and/or the legal profession based on your background/identity and experiences? So, it's important for that to come through in your application.

1. Do schools take your GPA at face value as it is shown on LSAC, or do they also look into your actual transcripts? I go to a Canadian school, and on our transcripts, they show the class avg. and for the courses I took (science major) the total GPA of the class averages is a 2.3

2. What do you make of a school with a 3.09/155 average?

3. Do non-resident aliens recieve any URM boost in the admissions process?

Thank you in advance!