Different, Potentially Serious C&F Issue Forum

[Anonymous User]

I pretty much anticipated getting called in for an "interview" as I have a series of complicated/intertwined C&F type issues on my bar app. Over the last year or two I've spoken with Deans, professors, and even someone on the board of examiners about it (briefly) as I anticipated this would probably happen.
I'm an "older" law student, but I have no criminal or academic dishonesty issues-- mine pertain specifically to financial responsibility.

I finally got the email requesting my presence (mandatory) for an interview which is to take place in June. I'd also like to take this time to mention that I really appreciate them advising me of this mandatory meeting on the weekend before finals. Really helps take the edge off. I'm sure there was a valid reason why they didn't want to wait until after finals are over and they needed me to know right away about a meeting six weeks from now.

To make a very long story slightly less long: in late 2019 I was fired from my job which ultimately led to a series of credit cards charging off and student loans being defaulted on. The employment termination was a big deal, many big law firms involved, and ultimately a settlement was reached (but not til mid 2020). However, as you may recall, early 2020 was when COVID-19 kicked off and it was basically impossible to get a job as most people were either being laid off or told to stay home. So, I had basically bled my 401k dry while also receiving some unemployment while preparing to go to take the LSAT and go to law school. I paid what I could for as long as I could, but ultimately I had to make some choices or I would've become homeless. Everything was a mess- I got hit with child support two months after being fired. The judge gave zero consideration to the fact that I was then unemployed through no wrong-doing of my own and I was ordered to pay an amount based off my previous income (mom was full-time employed and already made more than me).

It wasn't worth it to file BK because I only had around $10k in credit card debt and the student loans wouldn't be discharged, and I didn't have any money for a BK lawyer anyway. When I finally received settlement money I decided I wanted to spread it out over three years because I anticipated not working while in law school and I wanted to borrow as little as possible for student loans. Scholarships covered a sizable amount, but not enough. I figured I would take care of the debts once I started working again and once I was in a viable financial position to do so.

I've stayed in contact with the loan servicer for the one loan that is defaulted (private; my fed loans are and have been in good standing). We've agreed to a deal where they'll let me pay it back at 0% interest and take it out of default once payments are being made. I've disclosed this to the bar examiners and showed them all the emails I've had with the loan servicer/their law firm.
I also disclosed that I am very well aware of all the other charged off debts/judgments, that I couldn't do anything about it while in school with no income, and that I plan on paying them back as well once I start working. There were a couple of random $80-100 collection items that I've tried to take care of since, but overall I am very concerned about this.
What are the odds that they are going to take into account my good-standing/no issues fifteen year credit history prior to being fired? Does that account for anything?
I also didn't really have too many issues with traffic tickets (maybe like one speeding ticket every two years), but then after getting a certain car in 2020/2021, I got five tickets in three months (three moving violations; two tint)....sold the car about a month after the last ticket, and haven't been pulled over since.

I disclosed all of this (and much more), but I am almost paralyzed with crippling anxiety after getting this notification from them despite the fact I had anticipated it. I'm thinking I may need a C&F attorney, but thus far there do not appear to be any in my area.

I am generally curious as to everyone's thoughts on this and if I am justifiably concerned or if I am being a hypochondriac.

Thank you.

[Anonymous User]

Stopped reading maybe halfway through cus it became clear that you just need to meet with a C&F attorney - plain and simple. Not saying anything will be disqualifying but worth a consult

[Anonymous User]

I agree. You need to talk to a C+F attorney. (For those reading this in the future, people with this background should consult with a C+F attorney BEFORE going to law school).

A couple thoughts:

First, I'm really sorry you went through such a hard time - that must have been really stressful and upsetting. I'm glad you are in a better place now financially !

Second, the below reflections don't suggest that you have to THINK anything different or FEEL anything different. They are merely to point out that, in your communications, you might be generating a different response than what you intend. To be blunt: you don't sound contrite and you don't sound like you've taken responsibility for the terrible situation. And, most importantly, you don't explain what you are doing to avoid a reoccurrence. I'm not saying you need to BE contrite but you do need to SOUND contrite.

I pretty much anticipated getting called in for an "interview" as I have a series of complicated/intertwined C&F type issues on my bar app.

I finally got the email requesting my presence (mandatory) for an interview which is to take place in June. I'd also like to take this time to mention that I really appreciate them advising me of this mandatory meeting on the weekend before finals. Really helps take the edge off. I'm sure there was a valid reason why they didn't want to wait until after finals are over and they needed me to know right away about a meeting six weeks from now.

This comes off as very pissed off. If you were expecting the interview, then why does the timing of the email make a difference? Why does the fact that the interview is mandatory make a difference? Why, if you were expecting it, does an email during 3LOL finals make a difference?

In other words, your clear anger at the mandatory-ness of it and the timing of the email before finals seems....unpersuasive. It just comes off as very, I'm not sure, whiny?

To make a very long story slightly less long: in late 2019 I was fired from my job which ultimately led to a series of credit cards charging off and student loans being defaulted on. The employment termination was a big deal, many big law firms involved, and ultimately a settlement was reached (but not til mid 2020). However, as you may recall, early 2020 was when COVID-19 kicked off and it was basically impossible to get a job as most people were either being laid off or told to stay home. So, I had basically bled my 401k dry while also receiving some unemployment while preparing to go to take the LSAT and go to law school. I paid what I could for as long as I could, but ultimately I had to make some choices or I would've become homeless. Everything was a mess- I got hit with child support two months after being fired. The judge gave zero consideration to the fact that I was then unemployed through no wrong-doing of my own and I was ordered to pay an amount based off my previous income (mom was full-time employed and already made more than me).

A couple thoughts on this: So you had no emergency fund? I assume you will assure the committee that you are rectifying that?

Surely child support was not a surprise, given you had 9 months to prepare?

And, I'm sorry you didn't like the court ruling in your case. I'm sure it was wrong. But the point is this: complaining about how other people did you wrong doesn't show taking responsibility and taking steps to avoid reoccurrence.

Think about it this way: the Committee wants to know that, while you had to go to your 401(k) last time, the next time you get hit with an adverse judgment, you won't go to your clients IOLTA account. I know you won't, but how do they?

I've stayed in contact with the loan servicer for the one loan that is defaulted (private; my fed loans are and have been in good standing).

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't understand why this matters? Is there significance to staying current on federal loans vs. private loans?

We've agreed to a deal where they'll let me pay it back at 0% interest and take it out of default once payments are being made. I've disclosed this to the bar examiners and showed them all the emails I've had with the loan servicer/their law firm.

Good.

What are the odds that they are going to take into account my good-standing/no issues fifteen year credit history prior to being fired? Does that account for anything?

Again, maybe I'm missing something, but this seems a number of financially imprudent decisions over a series of years.

but then after getting a certain car in 2020/2021, I got five tickets in three months (three moving violations; two tint)....sold the car about a month after the last ticket, and haven't been pulled over since.

You got TWO tint violations? You didn't (1) check to make sure the tint was good ex ante, (2) fix the tint after the first violation?

I disclosed all of this (and much more), but I am almost paralyzed with crippling anxiety after getting this notification from them despite the fact I had anticipated it. I'm thinking I may need a C&F attorney, but thus far there do not appear to be any in my area.

You absolutely need a C+F attorney.

One last thing, if my comment annoyed/angered you ("How dare he/she not understand how I ended up in this situation?") please remember, I'm a random stranger on the internet with no C+F experience. I'm just giving you my initial reaction to your post, which I don't think portrays the character you think it does/want it to.

I'm not saying you are a bad person or financially dumb or anything. I'm saying that, if you want to convince me, a random stranger on the internet that you should be trusted with client funds, your original post's tone wasn't helping you.

[Anonymous User]

I agree. You need to talk to a C+F attorney. (For those reading this in the future, people with this background should consult with a C+F attorney BEFORE going to law school).

A couple thoughts:

First, I'm really sorry you went through such a hard time - that must have been really stressful and upsetting. I'm glad you are in a better place now financially !

I'm not in a better spot financially--I never said that I was. It's honestly not my intention to be rude here, but I am really dumbfounded by some of the things you commented. I don't know if maybe you're a non-native English speaker or an advanced AI bot, or maybe really young/really old, because again, a lot of what you commented is ...just bizarre. I don't know that this is the proper forum (no pun intended) for you to be offering advice in.
1) "[T]his background" is not my "background". I said this was the catalyst that prompted my entering law school. This wasn't some "years long event" as you proclaimed it was later on in your response.
2) If it had been my "background", the law school would have made a determination in regards to it prior to admitting me. As would have NCBE/LSAC. I don't believe it's regular practice to deny prospective students admission because of a couple charged-off credit cards and a defaulted loan.

Second, the below reflections don't suggest that you have to THINK anything different or FEEL anything different. They are merely to point out that, in your communications, you might be generating a different response than what you intend. To be blunt: you don't sound contrite and you don't sound like you've taken responsibility for the terrible situation. And, most importantly, you don't explain what you are doing to avoid a reoccurrence.

This response makes me think you really did not understand what was said...at all. The termination of my job was the event that caused the financial situation. How should one take responsibility for being fired for being a whistle-blower? That actually sounds like a threat when coupled with your subsequent comment, "most importantly, you don't explain what you are doing to avoid a reoccurrence." A reoccurrence of being fired for reporting illegal activity? I will always blow the whistle on large corporations which perpetuate fraud and deceit upon their own customers and employees. Guess I'm just not learning from my mistakes.
Usually when a company admits an employee was not fired for cause, the employee committed no wrong-doing, and pays out a settlement to the employee, it's because the employee did no wrong. But you would like me to take responsibility for no wrong-doing and explain how I would avoid a reoccurrence of doing no wrong. That's weird.

This comes off as very pissed off. If you were expecting the interview, then why does the timing of the email make a difference? Why does the fact that the interview is mandatory make a difference? Why, if you were expecting it, does an email during 3LOL finals make a difference?

Why does the timing of the email make a difference? I already explained exactly why it makes a difference. I stated with clarity why I took issue with it. That reason was the whole reason I brought it up.
I never said anything about its being mandatory making a difference. I gave no emphasis to it, nor did I imply any. I stated it as matter of fact. Again, that is a truly weird and bizarre comment for you to make.

A couple thoughts on this: So you had no emergency fund? I assume you will assure the committee that you are rectifying that?

A couple of thoughts for you: You must have lived a VERY privileged and sheltered life. Are you so detached from reality that you are seriously unaware that the overwhelming majority of Americans have no financial safety net? It must be very nice for you to have not have to have lived paycheck to paycheck.
Let me venture a guess-- straight into undergrad after high school, straight into law school after undergrad, no work or "real life" experience upon passing the bar, and a 50/50 chance mom and dad paid for everything.
What exactly do you think a 401(k) is? Do you even know? Or do you live off of a trust?
Spoiler alert: a 401(k) is a literal financial safety net because most Americans understand they won't be able to live solely off social security upon retirement. (Don't feel bad if you didn't know this. If I had a ten-figure trust I probably wouldn't know it either.)
Furthermore, you assume correctly: As an un-employed (actually employed, but not PAID) law student I am obviously rectifying and growing my financial surplus. I'm just having difficulty finding a bank that can hold all my cash and federally insure my account for more than $100k. But you probably know of some right?
In all seriousness though, I have a really good feeling about this weekends Powerball, so YES, consider it rectified.

Surely child support was not a surprise, given you had 9 months to prepare?

WHAT? This was the first comment where I knew there was no way you are a practicing attorney.

And, I'm sorry you didn't like the court ruling in your case. I'm sure it was wrong. But the point is this: complaining about how other people did you wrong doesn't show taking responsibility and taking steps to avoid reoccurrence.

lol, again with the reoccurrence. "I can't even" with this one.

Think about it this way: the Committee wants to know that, while you had to go to your 401(k) last time, the next time you get hit with an adverse judgment, you won't go to your clients IOLTA account. I know you won't, but how do they?

No you don't. You don't know that at all. I don't know how you could even quantify such a claim.
Also, I'm sorry, but it's a stupid premise and inference. I wasn't CONVICTED OF A FINANCIAL CRIME. I didn't rip anyone off to take care of my own debts and the fact that YOU or any bar examiner would make such a leap is seriously offensive. Having the financial rug pulled up from underneath you through no fault of your own (or, I guess according to you I should've known better than to blow the whistle) does not equate to ROBBING people or committing fraud or ANY KIND of ethics violation. Since when does being poor equate to thievery and dishonesty? This is such absolute non-sense.
SO SORRY FOR BEING POOR.

And think about this--if I had ripped off or scammed a bunch of people, then I would've used that money to pay off the debts and we wouldn't even be having this discussion, right? They're my debts and I'll handle them when I am able to do so (like I said, repeatedly.)

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't understand why this matters? Is there significance to staying current on federal loans vs. private loans?

You are missing a lot, friend. I am truly in awe of your wealth. I cannot imagine how much money a person (or their parents) has to have to just be totally unaware of the differences between private and federal loans. I just imagine you're one of those people who has one of those $12,000 gold umbrella holder/canisters on the inside of their front door.

Again, maybe I'm missing something, but this seems a number of financially imprudent decisions over a series of years.

Again, you are missing something. I don't know how you derived "a number of financially imprudent decisions over a series of years" from "Well I was doing OK and my credit was fine for 15 years straight, but then I got fired and had no income."

You got TWO tint violations? You didn't (1) check to make sure the tint was good ex ante, (2) fix the tint after the first violation?

I wasn't able to have it fixed because my butler was out of town and the Au Pair hadn't been hired yet.

I'm not saying you are a bad person or financially dumb or anything. I'm saying that, if you want to convince me, a random stranger on the internet that you should be trusted with client funds, your original post's tone wasn't helping you.

I'm not saying you're not a real person or that I've ever been in favor of wealth redistribution in my entire life, but you really make a good case for it. Thanks for your help.

[Anonymous User]

Dude you were late on child support and defaulted on a ton of debt. Did you not realize that these would become issues? Get a C&F attorney and figure out how to get through this.

The biggest red flag here imo is your attitude. You seem to avoid taking responsibility and are bitter at having to pay child support. I'm not going to get into if any of this is justified, because it doesn't matter. The attitude is going to sink you.

[nixy]

Short version is that you need a C&F attorney.

Long version is that I agree that your responses are coming off really badly. I'm not telling you how to feel about the situation, just that you need to avoid giving this impression when you go in for the interview. I get that you know that your posting here isn't the same as your interview response, but you need to avoid letting your emotions bleed into that (and it's really hard to avoid. Like the e-mail about the interview - do you really think the C&F people actually knew when your final exams were being held and should have considered that? It's the kind of attitude that can seep into answers without even realizing it).

Unfortunately your previous good history, while helpful, isn't going to carry the day because your financial problems are the much more recent history, so (in the eyes of bar examiners) shed more light on how you might behave now. Coming up with a plan with your student loan provider is a good thing because the biggest thing you can do is show that you're aware of the problem and that you have a plan for addressing it.

But C&F will definitely push you on some things. You got fired in late 2019 and got a settlement in mid-2020. That's 6-7 months - C&F will want to know why you ended up with credit cards charged off and defaulting on student loans in what is a relatively short a period of time. I get the living paycheck to paycheck issue, but you reference having a 401k and getting unemployment, some private student loan servicers allow for putting the loans into forbearance, and if you have a 15-year credit history you've probably been working for a while. So they will likely want to know why that wasn't sufficient. Your answer may well completely satisfy them, but they will want to know.

Re: recurrence, no one is saying you should have avoided getting fired for whistleblowing, but C&F will still want to know what you would do differently if you encountered financial distress for some other reason. C&F will probably also not care about the distinctions between federal and private student loans, and they may disapprove of using your settlement to take out fewer loans for law school, rather than immediately addressing your current debts. (The credit cards, at least - $10k more in student loans isn't going to make a material difference and student loan interest rates are usually less than credit card interest rates.) I don't think they'll care about the tickets particularly, but they may want to know why you bought a car that earned you extra attention (that's not usually an econobox) instead of paying off loans.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you won't pass. Your previous history helps in that it supports the argument that this is an aberration. But the thing is, C&F is historically a(n unfair) gate-keeping mechanism for keeping the "wrong" people out of the profession and one result is that financial issues do get heavily scrutinized. There's no point in blowing up at a random person on the internet that getting into debt doesn't equal committing robbery or fraud, because unfortunately for you, one of the tenets many state bars hold dear is in fact that idea that financial pressures can lead to mishandling client funds. Also unfortunately for you, they're not making this up out of whole cloth - they do see that happen in attorney discipline cases all the time. Certainly, plenty of rich people fuck up client money as well, either inadvertently or on purpose, so I'm not saying the inference is fair, but you can't simply wish it away with outrage over the very premise.

[Anonymous User]

This is the commenter you accused of being Richie Rich.

Well, I’m sorry you didn’t like my reaction to your post; I was trying to help. Apparently I made some wrong inferences.

I’ll just reiterate what Nixy said so well. The reason financial issues matter is because state bars are concerned that attorneys with financial distress will steal from clients. If you were in financial distress, are apparently still in financial distress, then they are going to be concerned. (I’d imagine)

[Pneumonia]

Your attitude going to cause you far more problems than the financial stuff you mentioned. You need to be able to explain your situation dispassionately even though you care about it deeply. You need to be able to calmly answer questions, even if they rely on premises that you see as false. You absolutely cannot impugn anyone’s motives, especially the committee’s. If you bring this he-said-she-said accusatory defensive stuff to the committee, or even to a c+f lawyer, you will not fare well.

[Marinobarreview]

The bottom line is that you need to consult with a character and fitness attorney before proceeding any further. It is that simple. They will give you the best advice about how to present your circumstances and explain them in the light most favorable to you. From our experience, there is an attorney named Si Aydiner (you can google him) who is very good at handling matters like these.

[Anonymous User]

I pretty much anticipated getting called in for an "interview" as I have a series of complicated/intertwined C&F type issues on my bar app. Over the last year or two I've spoken with Deans, professors, and even someone on the board of examiners about it (briefly) as I anticipated this would probably happen.
I'm an "older" law student, but I have no criminal or academic dishonesty issues-- mine pertain specifically to financial responsibility.

I finally got the email requesting my presence (mandatory) for an interview which is to take place in June. I'd also like to take this time to mention that I really appreciate them advising me of this mandatory meeting on the weekend before finals. Really helps take the edge off. I'm sure there was a valid reason why they didn't want to wait until after finals are over and they needed me to know right away about a meeting six weeks from now.

To make a very long story slightly less long: in late 2019 I was fired from my job which ultimately led to a series of credit cards charging off and student loans being defaulted on. The employment termination was a big deal, many big law firms involved, and ultimately a settlement was reached (but not til mid 2020). However, as you may recall, early 2020 was when COVID-19 kicked off and it was basically impossible to get a job as most people were either being laid off or told to stay home. So, I had basically bled my 401k dry while also receiving some unemployment while preparing to go to take the LSAT and go to law school. I paid what I could for as long as I could, but ultimately I had to make some choices or I would've become homeless. Everything was a mess- I got hit with child support two months after being fired. The judge gave zero consideration to the fact that I was then unemployed through no wrong-doing of my own and I was ordered to pay an amount based off my previous income (mom was full-time employed and already made more than me).

It wasn't worth it to file BK because I only had around $10k in credit card debt and the student loans wouldn't be discharged, and I didn't have any money for a BK lawyer anyway. When I finally received settlement money I decided I wanted to spread it out over three years because I anticipated not working while in law school and I wanted to borrow as little as possible for student loans. Scholarships covered a sizable amount, but not enough. I figured I would take care of the debts once I started working again and once I was in a viable financial position to do so.

I've stayed in contact with the loan servicer for the one loan that is defaulted (private; my fed loans are and have been in good standing). We've agreed to a deal where they'll let me pay it back at 0% interest and take it out of default once payments are being made. I've disclosed this to the bar examiners and showed them all the emails I've had with the loan servicer/their law firm.
I also disclosed that I am very well aware of all the other charged off debts/judgments, that I couldn't do anything about it while in school with no income, and that I plan on paying them back as well once I start working. There were a couple of random $80-100 collection items that I've tried to take care of since, but overall I am very concerned about this.
What are the odds that they are going to take into account my good-standing/no issues fifteen year credit history prior to being fired? Does that account for anything?
I also didn't really have too many issues with traffic tickets (maybe like one speeding ticket every two years), but then after getting a certain car in 2020/2021, I got five tickets in three months (three moving violations; two tint)....sold the car about a month after the last ticket, and haven't been pulled over since.

I disclosed all of this (and much more), but I am almost paralyzed with crippling anxiety after getting this notification from them despite the fact I had anticipated it. I'm thinking I may need a C&F attorney, but thus far there do not appear to be any in my area.

I am generally curious as to everyone's thoughts on this and if I am justifiably concerned or if I am being a hypochondriac.

Thank you.

what state