NY Bar Exam Postponed. How will this affect incoming associates? Forum

[bigadi99]

As the title states, any thoughts?

[Anonymous User]

I can imagine start dates being pushed back. Not for economic reasons, but because it would probably be more disruptive for first-years to start in July/August and then have to leave again to study (or resume studying) for the bar. A lot of firms were planning to start in September, so I can see firms pushing their start dates back a few weeks to give first-years time to properly study for the bar.

[jarofsoup]

With everything going on, I don’t think a lot of law firms have thought about it. The priority in the last few weeks has been transitioning to be 100% remote.

[JusticeSquee]

With everything going on, I don’t think a lot of law firms have thought about it. The priority in the last few weeks has been transitioning to be 100% remote.

Agreed, no one is putting much thought into the long-term right now, given all the upheaval in the immediate-term. I think we will start hearing about summer programs being pushed back and then start dates for first-years being pushed back mid-May if this doesn't go away by then.

[TheBlueDevil]

No one he has law students interests at the forefront. If they did, legal education, bar admittance, and associate training/pathway to partnership would be entirely different.

Tangential, but it seems like there's an increasing push by law students to avoid further bar exam postponements in the form of open letters:

NCBE: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1PwPF3x ... 5Q0bmyu7UA
California: https://www.change.org/p/the-state-bar- ... 0-bar-exam
Colorado: https://www.change.org/p/2020-graduates ... applicants
DC: https://forms.gle/sCf4TR6heHCrXqf87

[2013]

No one he has law students interests at the forefront. If they did, legal education, bar admittance, and associate training/pathway to partnership would be entirely different.

Tangential, but it seems like there's an increasing push by law students to avoid further bar exam postponements in the form of open letters:

NCBE: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1PwPF3x ... 5Q0bmyu7UA
California: https://www.change.org/p/the-state-bar- ... 0-bar-exam
Colorado: https://www.change.org/p/2020-graduates ... applicants
DC: https://forms.gle/sCf4TR6heHCrXqf87

Thanks for sharing. Students have to look out for each other because no one else is going to do what is right

I think the easiest fix would be for states to just administer the MBE later (September) and have the results available almost instantaneously. It’ll obviously suck for people who aren’t good at standardized tests, but it beats this whole idea of diploma privilege.

I’m sorry, but as someone who has had to take bar exams due to changing jobs, I don’t like the idea of law students pushing diploma privilege. You’re a 3L getting P/F grades. I have no sympathy for you.

[Sackboy]

I think the easiest fix would be for states to just administer the MBE later (September) and have the results available almost instantaneously. It’ll obviously suck for people who aren’t good at standardized tests, but it beats this whole idea of diploma privilege.

I’m sorry, but as someone who has had to take bar exams due to changing jobs, I don’t like the idea of law students pushing diploma privilege. You’re a 3L getting P/F grades. I have no sympathy for you.

The classic "I've had to struggle, so you should too." Nice. Quality human being.

[TheBlueDevil]

I think the easiest fix would be for states to just administer the MBE later (September) and have the results available almost instantaneously. It’ll obviously suck for people who aren’t good at standardized tests, but it beats this whole idea of diploma privilege.

I’m sorry, but as someone who has had to take bar exams due to changing jobs, I don’t like the idea of law students pushing diploma privilege. You’re a 3L getting P/F grades. I have no sympathy for you.

The classic "I've had to struggle, so you should too." Nice. Quality human being.

Also, at least some of the open letters advocate for online testing (perhaps to go along with online working and schooling arrangements), so it's not even all about diploma privilege.

[2013]

I think the easiest fix would be for states to just administer the MBE later (September) and have the results available almost instantaneously. It’ll obviously suck for people who aren’t good at standardized tests, but it beats this whole idea of diploma privilege.

I’m sorry, but as someone who has had to take bar exams due to changing jobs, I don’t like the idea of law students pushing diploma privilege. You’re a 3L getting P/F grades. I have no sympathy for you.

The classic "I've had to struggle, so you should too." Nice. Quality human being.

Also, at least some of the open letters advocate for online testing (perhaps to go along with online working and schooling arrangements), so it's not even all about diploma privilege.

I didn’t read all of the letters, so I won’t comment on the other suggested methods.

The bar being pushed to September wouldn’t have a huge impact on currently jobless 3Ls finding jobs since many states don’t even release bar results until October. If NCBE said that there would be no bar until February 2021, I’d understand. But we are talking about a 1.5-2 month delay. The NCBE/states can augment the bar in a way that allows for results to come out quicker (all multiple choice, for example).

I think everyone who wants to practice should have to take the bar. Or, if we are going to allow diploma privilege, we should allow it for everyone who has a JD or LLM.

[basketofbread]

No one he has law students interests at the forefront. If they did, legal education, bar admittance, and associate training/pathway to partnership would be entirely different.

Tangential, but it seems like there's an increasing push by law students to avoid further bar exam postponements in the form of open letters:

NCBE: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1PwPF3x ... 5Q0bmyu7UA
California: https://www.change.org/p/the-state-bar- ... 0-bar-exam
Colorado: https://www.change.org/p/2020-graduates ... applicants
DC: https://forms.gle/sCf4TR6heHCrXqf87

Thanks for sharing. Students have to look out for each other because no one else is going to do what is right

I think the easiest fix would be for states to just administer the MBE later (September) and have the results available almost instantaneously. It’ll obviously suck for people who aren’t good at standardized tests, but it beats this whole idea of diploma privilege.

I’m sorry, but as someone who has had to take bar exams due to changing jobs, I don’t like the idea of law students pushing diploma privilege. You’re a 3L getting P/F grades. I have no sympathy for you.

Dude, stfu. I would gladly take the bar. The bar is not a problem. Grades are the least of our concerns. This is throwing a further wrench into whatever wretched outcome all of us are going to get because of this pandemic. Before it was on the firms to decide what to do with our employment. Now the NY bar, which could have done any number of things to accommodate, just decided to guarantee that at minimum, the best we can hope for is a delayed start, if not something worse. Have some empathy you monkey.

[JusticeSquee]

I would be shocked if NY allows diploma privilege. Hopefully most employers are understanding about this unprecedented situation, stay strong 3Ls. You’ll get through this!

[blair.waldorf]

I think the easiest fix would be for states to just administer the MBE later (September) and have the results available almost instantaneously. It’ll obviously suck for people who aren’t good at standardized tests, but it beats this whole idea of diploma privilege.

I’m sorry, but as someone who has had to take bar exams due to changing jobs, I don’t like the idea of law students pushing diploma privilege. You’re a 3L getting P/F grades. I have no sympathy for you.

The classic "I've had to struggle, so you should too." Nice. Quality human being.

Also, at least some of the open letters advocate for online testing (perhaps to go along with online working and schooling arrangements), so it's not even all about diploma privilege.

I didn’t read all of the letters, so I won’t comment on the other suggested methods.

The bar being pushed to September wouldn’t have a huge impact on currently jobless 3Ls finding jobs since many states don’t even release bar results until October. If NCBE said that there would be no bar until February 2021, I’d understand. But we are talking about a 1.5-2 month delay. The NCBE/states can augment the bar in a way that allows for results to come out quicker (all multiple choice, for example).

I think everyone who wants to practice should have to take the bar. Or, if we are going to allow diploma privilege, we should allow it for everyone who has a JD or LLM.

I think part of the concern is that the bar is going to be further postponed from September, especially in a hard-hit state like New York. If an effective treatment doesn't come out, then September won't be any different from July.

[Logicalfallacy]

Could someone shed light on why everyone is so sure that life will be normal again by September? Are there experts saying September is for sure when things will go back to normal and we will no longer need social distancing/bans on large gatherings? I just don't get why the decisionmakers are certain at this point in time that July will not be a feasible time to have the bar, but September will be.

[2013]

Could someone shed light on why everyone is so sure that life will be normal again by September? Are there experts saying September is for sure when things will go back to normal and we will no longer need social distancing/bans on large gatherings? I just don't get why the decisionmakers are certain at this point in time that July will not be a feasible time to have the bar, but September will be.

I think September has just been a popular month for everything. I don’t think there’s any logic to it. I think, as alluded to by a previous poster, that they will delay in small increments with the hope that it’ll be sooner rather than later.

I think if it’s any later than the fall, NCBE/the states should consider a temporary diploma privilege until February/July 2021 so that people can get jobs and start working, to the extent possible.

But I have a tough time believing that they won’t figure out some way to remotely administer the bar in a few months.

[lawlzschool]

No one he has law students interests at the forefront. If they did, legal education, bar admittance, and associate training/pathway to partnership would be entirely different.

Tangential, but it seems like there's an increasing push by law students to avoid further bar exam postponements in the form of open letters:

NCBE: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1PwPF3x ... 5Q0bmyu7UA
California: https://www.change.org/p/the-state-bar- ... 0-bar-exam
Colorado: https://www.change.org/p/2020-graduates ... applicants
DC: https://forms.gle/sCf4TR6heHCrXqf87

Thanks for sharing. Students have to look out for each other because no one else is going to do what is right

I think the easiest fix would be for states to just administer the MBE later (September) and have the results available almost instantaneously. It’ll obviously suck for people who aren’t good at standardized tests, but it beats this whole idea of diploma privilege.

I’m sorry, but as someone who has had to take bar exams due to changing jobs, I don’t like the idea of law students pushing diploma privilege. You’re a 3L getting P/F grades. I have no sympathy for you.

not all of us are getting p/f, but all of us are suddenly adjusting to having our fairly nicely packaged futures (that we earned the same way you did) completely upended with 2-3 months til graduation at the very most.

also how frequently has your bar study/passage actually been consequential in your practice of law? do you think the bar has any relevance to competency in the profession?

[Logicalfallacy]

I still don't completely understand why an at-home bar exam wouldn't be a feasible option. If the GMAT and GRE are working to make those exams online, and law schools across the country have had to shift their format to online within a matter of weeks (and many/most law schools are also administering final exams online), why can't the bar? I understanding cheating is a concern, but is it not equally a concern in these settings? I think an emergency diploma privilege plus some modified exam that everyone could take online would be a good compromise between the gatekeeping concerns and the concerns of graduating students. There are certainly preventative measures that could be put in place to protect against cheating.

[Logicalfallacy]

Or why not extend diploma privilege to ranked, accredited schools only? I don’t understand why the approaches here seem to be all or nothing.

[QContinuum]

That’s why I didn’t mention those states bro

So you agree that DP shouldn't be extended to D.C., IL, MA, NY and TX?

I’d need more info. Potentially, but I’d probably conclude auto admission every state

So why did you write "That's why I didn't mention those states bro"? You gotta be consistent in the positions you take.

Or why not extend diploma privilege to ranked, accredited schools only? I don’t understand why the approaches here seem to be all or nothing.

So, DP to all Cooley grads?

It's "all or nothing" because if you limit DP to only ABA-accredited schools, that's still a hot mess because the ABA's accreditation process really isn't nearly rigorous enough. If you limit DP on the basis of USNWR rankings, you will be met with howls of protest from schools "screwed over" by USNWR. You will also be met with howls of protest from the legal community generally for giving USNWR the power to decide whether schools get DP or not.

[Logicalfallacy]

That’s why I didn’t mention those states bro

So you agree that DP shouldn't be extended to D.C., IL, MA, NY and TX?

I’d need more info. Potentially, but I’d probably conclude auto admission every state

So why did you write "That's why I didn't mention those states bro"? You gotta be consistent in the positions you take.

Or why not extend diploma privilege to ranked, accredited schools only? I don’t understand why the approaches here seem to be all or nothing.

So, DP to all Cooley grads?

It's "all or nothing" because if you limit DP to only ABA-accredited schools, that's still a hot mess because the ABA's accreditation process really isn't nearly rigorous enough. If you limit DP on the basis of USNWR rankings, you will be met with howls of protest from schools "screwed over" by USNWR. You will also be met with howls of protest from the legal community generally for giving USNWR the power to decide whether schools get DP or not.

So what about DP + online bar exam? Especially when the GMAT, GRE, and law school finals are all able to shift online, I think you could at least shift the UBE or something like it online. I also don’t think “howls of protest” is a good reason to reject a solution. Every solution that isn’t “have the bar exam in July 2020” is going to get met with protest from some corner of the community. No solution is going to be perfect.

[nixy]

Links to job offers for the fall getting yanked (and evidence that it’s linked to delaying the bar exam and not the chaos of the coronavirus more directly)?

[LSATWiz.com]

Sorry to go off topic, but is it possible the NYS bar knows something that we don't? The July bar is four months out and they have already canceled the test. The NYS bar is a pretty powerful organization and they are closely connected to government. Is it possible this can give us insight into when the general NY-stay at home orders may be lifted (i.e. not for at least another 6 months)?

[QContinuum]

Sorry to go off topic, but is it possible the NYS bar knows something that we don't? The July bar is four months out and they have already canceled the test. The NYS bar is a pretty powerful organization and they are closely connected to government. Is it possible this can give us insight into when the general NY-stay at home orders may be lifted (i.e. not for at least another 6 months)?

I don't think so. It's entirely possible that "NYS on Pause" order is lifted before July, but there continues to be a longer-lasting ban on large gatherings (be it 500+, or 100+, or even 50+, whatever) that goes through the summer.

[siriuslysaucy422]

I think the easiest fix would be for states to just administer the MBE later (September) and have the results available almost instantaneously. It’ll obviously suck for people who aren’t good at standardized tests, but it beats this whole idea of diploma privilege.

I’m sorry, but as someone who has had to take bar exams due to changing jobs, I don’t like the idea of law students pushing diploma privilege. You’re a 3L getting P/F grades. I have no sympathy for you.

The classic "I've had to struggle, so you should too." Nice. Quality human being.

Right! This is why society gets stuck doing dumb shit that no longer makes sense. Why people think people have to live what they've lived through in order to be "worthy" is beyond me.

[siriuslysaucy422]

Sorry to go off topic, but is it possible the NYS bar knows something that we don't? The July bar is four months out and they have already canceled the test. The NYS bar is a pretty powerful organization and they are closely connected to government. Is it possible this can give us insight into when the general NY-stay at home orders may be lifted (i.e. not for at least another 6 months)?

The fed government just spent a ton of money converting the Javits center into a makeshift hospital and a quarter of the US coronavirus cases are in NY. Those two things alone were probably good indications that the state would not be returning to "normal" in the next three months.

Also, there's no indication that this virus is slowing down yet, and medical experts predict the next 2-3 weeks will see higher infection and death rates. Dealing with that fallout is probably all the state can really handle right now.

Tack on 45 just extending the social distancing "guidelines" to April 30th and it seems NYS made the best decision with the information available.

[JusticeSquee]

I think that there is a fundamental misunderstanding as to how diploma privilege works in Wisconsin and New Hampshire (the only two states to have such a privilege). To clear it up, to be admitted to the WI or NH bars, you have to attend an accredited law school in the respective states. This makes it pretty easy because NH has one law school and WI has two. Quality control therefore isn’t much of an issue.

New York is a COMPLETELY different story. There are 15 law schools in the state. This includes Tuoro, which has a 63% passage rare in NY. So even if we limit diploma privilege to NY law schools like WI and NH have been doing, it presents a unique set of circumstances. Namely, NY has more TTTT schools than those other states.

Finally, some of you seem to have forgotten this. But bar passage is not a right, it’s a privilege. Don’t be surprised when the state expects you to pass a simple test to gain this privilege. I’m not saying this situation doesn’t suck, it does. It sucks a lot. But bar passage isn’t required to start a lot of legal jobs, and most folks pass the bar on the first try. This is a hurdle, but it’s a surmountable one for sure.