Should I quit to study for bar Forum

[bdadon]

I just started working at a small corporate and securities firm in NYC. I have to work 9-9 (M-T), 9-7(Fridays). I also am studying for the bar exam. It was really difficult to get a job and even though they pay $40k, doing corporate work is all I ever wanted to do. What should I do?

[acr]

Wow. 58 hours per week? Making 40K? That's like $13 per hour (!!). In NYC?

You'd be better off opening a lawn care company and mowing lawns.

[FinallyPassedTheBar]

Is the firm planning to increase your pay substantially once you get admitted as an attorney? If not, I do not see why you would want to remain there. You're accepting near-poverty wages from a for-profit employer. What's the benefit to you?

[jarofsoup]

1. Is this Mintz Faarede?

2. Just out of curiosity, what is your hourly rate?

3. You HAVE TO find a new job. You are working big law hours. Your pay is exploitative. You would be better off doing document review and MUCH better doing compliance at a bank.

[bdadon]

Is the firm planning to increase your pay substantially once you get admitted as an attorney? If not, I do not see why you would want to remain there. You're accepting near-poverty wages from a for-profit employer. What's the benefit to you?

They said they will increase every my salary by $5k every six months. I also have to work 4 hours on the weekends, I am currently doing work now before studying. The only reason I took this job is that I did not want there to be a substantial gap period on my resume. I also would like to use this position to get a better position.

I really do not know what to do. It is easy to say quit and focus only on studying, but when the exam is over in February, I will then be competing against 2019 graduates. I will like to have a little post-grad legal experience under my belt.

[bdadon]

1. Is this Mintz Faarede?

2. Just out of curiosity, what is your hourly rate?

3. You HAVE TO find a new job. You are working big law hours. Your pay is exploitative. You would be better off doing document review and MUCH better doing compliance at a bank.

Yes, this is them. I am required to bill about 60 hours a week for a salary of $40k

[FinallyPassedTheBar]

Is the firm planning to increase your pay substantially once you get admitted as an attorney? If not, I do not see why you would want to remain there. You're accepting near-poverty wages from a for-profit employer. What's the benefit to you?

They said they will increase every my salary by $5k every six months. I also have to work 4 hours on the weekends, I am currently doing work now before studying. The only reason I took this job is that I did not want there to be a substantial gap period on my resume. I also would like to use this position to get a better position.

I really do not know what to do. It is easy to say quit and focus only on studying, but when the exam is over in February, I will then be competing against 2019 graduates. I will like to have a little post-grad legal experience under my belt.

That firm is disrespecting you. IMO you should leave.

[jarofsoup]

If your rate is 300 an hour you are producing $630,000 in revenue even if you are only billing 2,100 a year. That means - your salary they are making $590k off of you.

I would not just quit, but make arrangements to leave. It is a chop shop. If they get 6 months out of you for that rate, they make 300K and don't pay you anything.

[Npret]

What are your credentials? I think this firm is taking advantage of you, but with the oversupply of lawyers they can do so.

Can you afford to live without a job?

Are you learning any skills that can be transferred to another firm/job?

How much did you search before you found this job?
The salary you are making is in line with the bimodal distribution of salaries though this seems very low for the required hours.

I think it will be very difficult to work those hours and study for the bar. Did you fail in July? What’s your plan for bar study?

[bdadon]

Thanks Guys,

I am going to quit. I would rather use all my time to study and pass. I failed the bar by 10 points.

I went to a top tier law school and my grades are good. I will be okay.

[pvnyc]

I failed the bar (for the third time) by around 22 points.

I am currently working 35 hours per week for a $44,000 job. I did register to take the Feb 19 bar. I recently got a job offer with another agency for $70,000. I am not sure when I should start--I was thinking in March after the Feb 19 bar. I can leave my current job around Feb 1 so I have time for myself. I don't want to use my annual leave (I work for nyc)..

I would say leave... although keep applying to other places.

Good luck.
PS- would love any advice

[jarofsoup]

1. Is this Mintz Faarede?

2. Just out of curiosity, what is your hourly rate?

3. You HAVE TO find a new job. You are working big law hours. Your pay is exploitative. You would be better off doing document review and MUCH better doing compliance at a bank.

Yes, this is them. I am required to bill about 60 hours a week for a salary of $40k

That's 3,120 a year. You would be a super star if you hit those hours at a big law firm consistently. They are paying effectively $6 an hour. I Think quitting is a solid choice.

[a male human]

If you're going to quit, you might as well negotiate and ask for a better pay rate before doing so.

Research data from payscale.com, glassdoor.com, billable hour requirements from other firms, etc.

Say, "If you have time sometime today, I wanted to talk to you about my role in the firm."

Express your thanks for the opportunity and so forth. Say you're looking for a compensation adjustment and that you'd like to share some data to support it. It'll be an easier sell if you've been doing a good job so far (print out any good comments they've given you).

Decide on a minimum number you want. Propose a range of specific numbers based on your research (e.g., $74,650 to $91,200) that indicates careful deliberation. If they fail to match or exceed that minimum, say that you will be giving your notice (1, 2, 4 weeks, whatever you feel is appropriate for your relationship). See if that changes their mind. If not, turn in your notice.

Win-win for you either way. You get paid what you want, or you get time to study for the bar. Keep in mind that in the former case, constraint can actually be a good thing. You were close to passing (NY?) so keep focusing on using that time creatively to apply what you learn. A couple people I talked to in the recent CA bar (41% pass rate) had barely any time to study (1 hr a day or 40 hours total). They did better than the times when they had infinite time.

[Npret]

If you're going to quit, you might as well negotiate and ask for a better pay rate before doing so.

Research data from payscale.com, glassdoor.com, billable hour requirements from other firms, etc.

Say, "If you have time sometime today, I wanted to talk to you about my role in the firm."

Express your thanks for the opportunity and so forth. Say you're looking for a compensation adjustment and that you'd like to share some data to support it. It'll be an easier sell if you've been doing a good job so far (print out any good comments they've given you).

Decide on a minimum number you want. Propose a range of specific numbers based on your research (e.g., $74,650 to $91,200) that indicates careful deliberation. If they fail to match or exceed that minimum, say that you will be giving your notice (1, 2, 4 weeks, whatever you feel is appropriate for your relationship). See if that changes their mind. If not, turn in your notice.

Win-win for you either way. You get paid what you want, or you get time to study for the bar. Keep in mind that in the former case, constraint can actually be a good thing. You were close to passing (NY?) so keep focusing on using that time creatively to apply what you learn. A couple people I talked to in the recent CA bar (41% pass rate) had barely any time to study (1 hr a day or 40 hours total). They did better than the times when they had infinite time.

I mean he can ask for more money, but expecting to double his salary seems far-fetched.

If OP has good qualifications and can afford it, he should focus on studying and passing in February. This firm is going to squeeze every hour they can out of OP for the least amount they can pay.

[a male human]

If you're going to quit, you might as well negotiate and ask for a better pay rate before doing so.

Research data from payscale.com, glassdoor.com, billable hour requirements from other firms, etc.

Say, "If you have time sometime today, I wanted to talk to you about my role in the firm."

Express your thanks for the opportunity and so forth. Say you're looking for a compensation adjustment and that you'd like to share some data to support it. It'll be an easier sell if you've been doing a good job so far (print out any good comments they've given you).

Decide on a minimum number you want. Propose a range of specific numbers based on your research (e.g., $74,650 to $91,200) that indicates careful deliberation. If they fail to match or exceed that minimum, say that you will be giving your notice (1, 2, 4 weeks, whatever you feel is appropriate for your relationship). See if that changes their mind. If not, turn in your notice.

Win-win for you either way. You get paid what you want, or you get time to study for the bar. Keep in mind that in the former case, constraint can actually be a good thing. You were close to passing (NY?) so keep focusing on using that time creatively to apply what you learn. A couple people I talked to in the recent CA bar (41% pass rate) had barely any time to study (1 hr a day or 40 hours total). They did better than the times when they had infinite time.

I mean he can ask for more money, but expecting to double his salary seems far-fetched.

If OP has good qualifications and can afford it, he should focus on studying and passing in February. This firm is going to squeeze every hour they can out of OP for the least amount they can pay.

Maybe. Maybe not. That range was simply an example of specifc numbers. He might be able to ask for even higher numbers. If he is able to support his request with data about other firms, salary information, his own performance, etc. there is no reason he can't try! You don't get what you deserve; you get what you ask for.

And if they won't give him what he wants, great! He can study with no regrets. I do agree that quitting is probably the best move, but this is in case TC wants to try all available options (personally, I'd be curious how far the firm would go for me).

[jarofsoup]

OPs firm has like a 200% turnover. They also have a reputation for being very abusive.

[rcharter1978]

I feel like passing the bar is an important enough investment in your future that anyone who can afford to quit and focus on the bar exam should do so. I guess if you've got a super baller job maybe the answer would be different.

[bacillusanthracis]

When I found out I'd failed the February 2018 bar, I was working for an attorney who was paying me shit wages and working me long hours too. I was first into the office, the last to leave, and the work didn't end there. It was also a miserable place to work. While failing the bar sucked, I was relieved to not have to work there anymore.

Law firms abuse the living daylights out of law students and grads on a routine basis, which to my mind means we owe them nothing.
Making $500K+ a year off you? That's crazy. You don't owe them anything, and they're totally screwing you. Go find a part time job in a nice environment while you study. It did wonders for my state of mind. And I passed the exam. Take my attitude with a grain of salt though. I'm starting my own practice, so I don't have to give a damn what an employer thinks of my resume'.

I mean yeah, do what you gotta do to work in corporate law, but right now, the bar exam is all that matters. There absolutely will be more opportunities for you.

Law school can do this odd thing; the destruction of a student's confidence with respect to finding work after law school is over. But you will find another job. So have that confidence, go forth, stroll into the office on Monday in flip flops, a Hawaiian shirt, a floppy straw hat, wear your sunglasses the whole time, and tell your boss to go fuck himself... okay, maybe a polite letter tactfully explaining the necessity of your voluntary separation from the company, along with sincere expressions of gratitude for the wonderful opportunity the firm has provided you is probably better. But keep the Hawaiian shirt motif as an internal attitude.